Give DK’s useful raid buff. Also give AMZ as baseline and put gorefiend’s gasp with tightening grasp instead. That would equalize Bdk with dps DK. You did it with shaman and windfury totem, i think its dk’s turn also
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Maybe we should post on the Mage or Shaman forums. They might read it there! 
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Yeah, it’d be nice to give DKs something that wasn’t “niche” utility. It’s great that we have AMZ and Grip is always has its moments, but those moments are not always. Our raid/key usefulness is highly dependent on pure damage.
If we don’t absolutely pump, then we don’t have anything that really sets us apart.
A raid buff would be great, but what sort of buff should it be? Delayed incoming damage? Something else?
I’d love to see ALL specs get something like Gorefiend’s Grasp, except I’d much rather prefer if it worked by gripping in an AoE around the target then pulled everything towards the caster. Like having multiple base DGs go off at once. Self-targetting could possible act like a regular Gorefiend’s Grasp, which might help?
Also, make D&D/Defile follow the DK please!
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Gorefiend’s gasp you can do it. You can grip around caster or yourself. It gather arounds at what you target it.
But as Bdk i think it would be win for all specs.
And raid buff. Idk what buff but give anything at leaat mid competitive.
Yeah, but the idea I had would have been more like a general Death Grip in a cone. So instead of gripping all adds towards the main target, you’d grip all adds in a reasonable AoE around the target to you, the caster.
Even just regular Gorefiend’s for all specs would be great though!
As for a raid buff; are any of the major secondaries not already covered? Maybe it could be a defensive buff instead - not to be too overpowered, but how about the Raid Buff acts as a mini cheat death once per fight?
It’d heal you up a small amount if you were to die to a reasonable amount of damage, so no cheesing wipe mechanics. Then the ability would go dormant until combat ends. If you die a second time, the buff is removed just like any other. Would that be too much?
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Cheat death? Yea, that would be too much.
I’d reckon so yeah.
I always propose 3 ideas based on the specs like the old presences:
Unholy: all ticking dots on the target are X% stronger
Frost: Critical strike damage increased by X% (damage not chance)
Blood: Increases leech and absorb shield effectiveness by x and y % respectively.
Admittedly, having 3 useful options will probably lead to the same issue we had with Paladins where they straight removed one of the auras as it was too useful to stack paladins in a raid. So maybe even one of those 3 would be cool.
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Combat Res, burst move speed (with talents), group Anti-Magic Shell (requires Vestigial Shell talented), Death Grip(s)/Gorefiend’s Grasp/Abomination Limb, group dispell (if talented into Unyielding Will AND Vestigial Shell), Anti-Magic Zone for 20% reduced spell damage taken, Incite Terror (1-5% increased shadow damage taken by the target).
I think all of that is A LOT of utility to bring to a raid or group. IF you’re thinking a major buff like damage reduction, perhaps competing for a 5% magic damage reduction as a raid buff would be OK. Even a 3% reduction would be fine.
Combat res no unique.
Group AMS, EXTREMELY niche, often useless, can target pets.
Grips (all of them) as this raid just proved and others in the past, often unneeded. More of a m+ tool, and displacement abilities aren’t unique to DKs.
AMZ not particularly unique and other similar raid wide defensives are simply more reliable. Often has to be optimised by being cast by a blood DK specifically.
Incite Terror, not sure why this is in your list, I don’t think it affects other players.
Have a read here. I don’t always agree with what the “1%” have to say as I find their approaches being too much about numbers and data, as opposed to feel and fantasy, but in this case they’re pretty spot on.
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I have read it previously. I doubt DKs will ever get something incredible like a group buff, but even if we did it would be hard to compete with other classes. Do we really need it though? Unless you’re part of the 0.1% that raid World First Mythic, then it can’t matter that much which classes you bring to the raid.
If people make noise we will get it. Also there nothing wrong with dk finally getting raid buff. We are last class with no buff, other classes has so much more then dk, so why not?
I’m not sure why you’re making this sound like it’s a 1% issue? It highly affects many players of all level that get involved in end game content. Because guess what? The majority of the players mimic what they see RWF and MDI. If your class doesn’t have some sort of advantage, good luck getting a spot anywhere as a solo player.
Now I know, play with friends nobody cares there, and I agree. But many people don’t have that privilege.
And yes getting a buff is only one piece of the DK puzzle. More needs to be done in order for this class to be a regular choice in comps.
I’m trying to understand the fringe cases you’re talking about. Do you have some data I could look at that confirms that this is a major issue for many players? I listed a lot of Death Knight advantages earlier in this very thread. What I find confusing is that you choose to disregard that because you simply wish to have more. There is nothing wrong with wanting that, but it would be great if it was rooted in some logic.
Perhaps you could share some personal anecdote to help make your case? Where have you experienced not getting a spot based on the fact that you play a Death Knight? Is your focus on raiding or Mythic+? If it’s the former then you lean on your guild - by definition a group of friends sharing a common goal. They’ll make it work no matter which class or spec you play. If it’s the latter then you’re free to run your own keys and thus dictate how it’s done. I suppose if the problem is very high keys like +17 or something (which again puts you at the top 1% of players and thus not representative of the majority) the mantra of “bring the player, not the class” still rings true.
I look forward to learning more about your experiences with this issue.
They must have an overall rework in mind, the class could be so much more fulfilling. I hope Midnight or TLT if not by then i abandon all hope and just accept.
So when somebody explains why your arguments are insufficient, or simply wrong we’re “disregarding”? My friend we’ve got very different parameters for conversation by the sounds of it.
It’s not that these advantages, since you called them so, aren’t of any worth ever, it’s that the consistency of their usefulness. As stamina buff, a BL, or a healthstone to name a few, are always useful. No matter the context, they’re welcomed, will improve the overall group performance and will be missed when they’re not there. The DK ones, notably grip that always seems to be in the heart of this conversation, doesn’t fulfil the same parameters. It’s either completely useless (case in point this season’s raid or S3 DF) or simply convenient. When it’s useful, other classes can simply do just as well.
Now other things like AMS those are generally more personal utility, though do have their uses in some bosses to help others, but generally a hunter or a paladin can usually mimic that too. Again not band, but neither unique (like the stamina buff or the healthsone etc)
Quantifiable data will get produced slowly over the course of the season. We will draw conclusions then.
If you want personal anecdotes I don’t have many of use, as I said, I mostly play with a guild, though I read around. I’ve experienced what it’s like to get insta invites on keys vs never getting an invite depending on seasonal tuning of DK. The “run your own key” argument isn’t helping creating a more balanced experience for a higher percentage of the player base.
Whatever the +17 do is often replicated (badly if I might add) on the lower keys too. And again if you want data, just look up raider. io and the many other platforms that provide data on keys run/group comp etc.
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I get where you’re coming from, but I think we’re weighing things differently.
The claim that DKs have “no utility” or “nothing unique” doesn’t hold up when you actually look at group content outside of Race to World First comps. Grips are niche in some raid encounters, sure—but in Mythic+, they’re top-tier. AMZ isn’t as strong as a paladin bubble, but it’s still a raid cooldown that gets used. Even the group-wide AMS and dispel, while talent-dependent, can shift the outcome of mechanics if used properly.
As for Incite Terror—it does affect group members. That’s just a straight-up buff to Shadow damage from any source, not just your own.
I’m not arguing that DKs are perfect. But the push for a raid buff feels like it’s coming from a place of “we want what they have,” not from an actual lack of value. We bring tools that change how fights are approached. That matters, even if it’s not a flat % throughput increase.
Not every class needs to have the same kind of utility. DKs are built around control and zone denial. That’s still utility—just not in a spreadsheet-friendly format.
I dont know how long you playing DK, but mostly all veterans DK players agreeing that dk utility sucks, its niche. AMZ in m+ sucks (often when there is aoe damage incoming there also is swirlies and people must step it out of it). Grips are lower tier in m+, opposite they were required in raids. AMS wide group talent is very very bugged and undertuned. you can make case +17 or other but there is people who who is pushing +12, 13 , 14 and pugging it and they not getting invited just because they dont bring much to the group.
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A grip in M+ can be substituted for better positioning of the mob pack by the tank, interrupting any lagging caster mobs or knockback effects from other classes that actually have other utility besides enemy displacement.
In raids, specifically this tier, we’ve only seen 1 fight that kind of needed grips to make things more comfortable. Other classes go through every tier with some form of solid benefit to the team almost every fight.
Yep. Also blizz logic grips are raid buff so you dragging DK just only for one fight…
If grip could apply a debuff to ungrippable targets, similar to Hunter’s Mark, surely that’d be nice and easy and also good for us, right?