Raiding didn’t suffer because of M+.
OMG people wake up
raiding is the OLD stuff in this game and it’s too time consuming
Do you understand that for m+ you don’t need to be online 3days a week? for 4 hours?
M+ of course is going to WIN because you can progress your character every time you log in but in raids you can’t
It’s logical that something that takes less time and it produce similar result as raiding will do better then raiding
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My main gameplay since Legion has been M+. Nice try though 
I mean every number shows this is a fact. Sadly, you still have Blizzard defenders and people who are atrocious at mathematics denying this.
There are of course also those who just claim raiding in MMOs is dead (which given the success of Classic, Classic TBC and Classic Wrath raiding) is at best ignorance, at worst a lie. Of course Wrath Classic raiding numbers have been falling… since they released the recent difficult raid… which again just proves my point.
Pretty much.
The dsy people actually admit the true rhing killing WoW is its continous attempt at being a esport. Will be a miracle
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The DF changes is going to kill raiding if it stays the same way. Mythic+ is infinitely farmable while raids are weekly locked. Bringing them closer together is always going to favour Mythic+ as you can spam it.
They absolutely did. Heroic raiding was completely dead in Shadowlands since you could get better gear from Mythic+
If raiding and m+ goes hand in hand, then how come the M+ community rightfully complained about having to raid for year for years? The solution isn’t to force raiders to M+ as well.
I think catalyst not being available since day one was dumb, I don’t think they should try to incentivize raids by gatekeeping tier behind it. But you’re being disingenuous if you refuse to acknowledge how Mythic+ was way better for gearing than Heroic raids. It’s also better than mythic raiding now in DF.
But it’s not. Every spec has more bis items from Mythic+ vaults than they do from the raid. For an average player there’s no incentiev to go and raid with how broken M+ gearing is.
The accessibility issues existed in previous expansions as well, but people still raided because you had good incentives to raid. Ever since Shadowlands they drastically increased the difficulty of the raids, while nerfing the rewards and the result is that very few people do them now.
That’s not true. If you want crafted gear you have to m+, otherwise you wont get enough concentrated primal focus. M+ gearing is also extremely strong early on in the tier as it’s better than Heroic loot and it’s infinitely farmable.
I agree. Like Zhujiang mentioned, they increased the difficulty a lot in SL. That combined with the gear rewards not being as good as they used to anymore has damaged the raiding scene a lot.
A +20 SBG & CoS is way easier than pugging Heroic Raszageth, yet I can upgrade M+ gear to 415 while Rasz gear caps out at 411. I can also get concentrated primal focus to craft 418 by doing +16s which is way easier than Rasz, while HC doesn’t drop a single concentrated primal focus.
I disagree. I have several sparks just sitting in my bags on multiple alts because I can’t be arsed doing 10x keys for CPFs.
I see your point, but I disagree. Mythic raiding is also pretty exclusive. It’s cannibalizing mythic raids for the high end players because it’s just easier to go do mythic+ & get very similar loot. The same way it’s easier for less hardcore players to go do +16s instead of HC raid.
Another problem it presents is that it removes the incentive to raid. Blizzard hasn’t added much cosmetic rewards as an incentive, it’s always been about gear. With +20 keys giving almost equal loot, the incentive to go get great gear from raids isn’t there anymore. So in that sense it screws over raiding a lot.
It absolutely did. Blizzard even said so themselves. Players felt like it was pointless to HC raid because you can just get way better items from Mythic+.
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But if M+ wasn’t more rewarding for less time, would we not find that people picked the content they preferred instead of the fastest route to gear?
Some people want to play 1-2 hours daily. Others have a couple of days where they can spend the whole afternoon+evening in the game. There’s plenty of room for both M+ and raids, but when one is considered overall easier and faster, players will typically do that even if it appeals to them less.
They already did. Usually just not for the first tier(for some unknown reason) but in general Mythic raiding rewards a unique title+unique mount.
If u want to ignore mythic raiding was done by a absolute minority before m+ was introduced.
And thats back when mythic wasnt near todays difficulty.
You think i m+ because mythic raids take too long?. Couldnt possibly think it might be because im now a adult? And have responsibilities?
Mythic raids are low reward for time.
Mythic raids simply are above the amount of time most have
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Yes and no. Why put in hours of your time into Mythic raiding when you can just get it at a later date? Shackled Ur’zul was extremely unique & exclusive when it came out. Now everyone who really wants it already has it since you can farm it on 50 alts every week. The titles you can get at a later date as well.
The hall of fame titles are really awful, let’s be honest. They sound extremely lame and the way they work are bad. You lose the title if you leave the guild, even if you were in on the kill to earn it…
I agree. For the amount of time & difficulty it takes, it’s just simply not rewarding enough. So the incentive to go and raid just doesn’t exist anymore like it used to before. It’s not just mythic raiding, HC raiding which used to be super popular is on the brink of death. Especially the pugging scene, it’s never been this bad before.
That’s why I said they need to buff raid gear or add some very good cosmetic rewards, otherwise it’s pointless to continue putting so much resources into the raids.
M+ is just showing you how this game should be designed
Raiding is like my father he remembers 70’ 80’
But he can’t do anything on PC because he don’t understand how it works
he just likes his old ways
M+ was the best thing that happened to this game in legion
it’s just that blizzard once again instead of changing raiding to a MODERN audience that m+ brought to this game they still do the 2004 model 
and wonder why people don’t wanna do it
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Never understood why the mythic plus vault rewards are higher than the key you do but the raid vault is not. I wouldn’t feel the need to do mythic plus if the raid vault worked the same way.
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I think there’s a misunderstanding here, and it’s coming from both you and the people who gave that interview (whoever ‘they’ were).
People do the content they enjoy, and the content that fits with their lifestyles. While many of us do enjoy raiding (I enjoy both raid and mythic plus), no-one can deny that M+ is more convenient. The smaller group size requires less organisation, and the relatively short time involved makes it available to people who might only have an hour at a time to play. This convenience is the reason why M+ is more popular than raid.
It has nothing to do with gear. Mythic raid STILL offers better gear than mythic plus, particularly when you consider that the highest ilvl gear from M+ is based on a chance in the vault and the loot pool covers the full dungeon list for the season.
If we’re going to talk about ‘incentives’ to NOT (mythic) raid, here are a few things that make mythic raid even more inconvenient than raiding in general:
- Group lockouts
- Fixed group size
- Realm limitations through much of the season
HC raid is not unpopular. You only have to look at the number of groups listed at any one time to see that. (And also consider how many guilds and communities organise their raids without needing to use group finder.)
Mythic raid is extremely difficult for most players to access because of the restrictions I listed above. If they want to incentivise more people to raid mythic, they need to remove the group lockout and make group sizes flexible at the same time as they open up cross realm. By that time, most people who want gear from HC have already got it, and the popularity of mythic will jump as players find themselves able to access mythic raiding without the restriction of group size and being tied to whatever group they join when they first enter.
To make it worse, 1450 score is below everything on +10, since that is 1600 score 
It’s not. In Shadowlands season 1 doing pvp was by far the best way of gearing up, as a result everyone pvp’d and it was the season with the most participation in recent expansions. Does this mean they should’ve dropped PvE & just designed around PvP? Nope.
In the beginning of the expansion everyone was farming rares & events everyday, does this mean that this is the content players enjoy the most and they should just design rares? No.
The truth is that wow players are very gear oriented and they’ll do whatever gives them the best gear. If they nerfed M+ gear & buffed raiding gear like crazy, everyone woul raid again. Does this mean that only designing around raids is the correct option? No again.
The problem is the disparity in gearing. It doesn’t matter how good or bad something is, if one form of content is just an infinitely better source of gear, everyone’s going to do that. Even if it isn’t content they like. Just like we saw with raid gear in Legion & BFA, PvP in Shadowlands and rares in early DF.
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Raiding and M+ is different content. 1 is farmable and the other isn’t. This means blizz had to lower the ilvl rewards in M+ from the end of dungeon loot and make it a 1 item per week by the vault. In M+ you can not get any mythic ilvl loot piece. The weekly vault is the only source.
What is the misunderstanding?
People do what gives them the best gear. If gear didn’t matter, why did so many mythic+ players complain about having to raid for gear? Why did so many PvPers complain about having to PvE for gear? Why did so many people complain about having to PvP for gear in Shadowlands season 1? Why did so many people farm rares everyday at the start of DF, when that never happened before? It’s all because players care a lot about their gear.
It has a lot to do with gear. I don’t disagree that Mythic+ is more convenient and way more accessible, but you’re just completely wrong if you think gear doesn’t play a factor.
It is. Participation has taken a nosedive ever since they increase the difficulty a lot in Shadowlands. For the guild groups, the participation right now is as high as it was during Sanctum of Domination. As for pugging, the number of groups available is very low compared to Legion & BFA. From what I remember at least.
Sure you can get some higher ilvl items from the raid, but overall M+ is just beter for gearing. Only two bosses give you higher ilvl than +20s vaults and it’s only 3 ilvls higher. Like I said, a mythic Raszageth dagger is only 0.3% better than a 421 dagger from m+ vault.
Incorrect. You can upgrade mythic+ gear to 415 which is mythic ilvl. You can also infinitely farm concentrated primal focus to craft multiple 418 items which is higher than base mythic ilvl.
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In the current system that is indeed fair, allthough mythic goes up way higher than 415 these days. This is also the very first season we can upgrade with valor up to this level. In the previous 2 expansions (leaving legion out since it had theoratically ways with titanforging to get mythic ilvl pieces from even world quests) we did not.
In the end M+ gets 1 random piece of 421 weekly. 1. if you are able to do +20’s.
Yeah true. BFA also had titanforging tbf, except for the last season when they removed it. But in that season the items were just baseline higher ilvl than HC raids, so it did a lot of dmg to heroic raiding.
And heroic raiders get absolutely none. Even though Heroic Rasz is harder than a +20 SBG/CoS.
And a +20 azure vault is harder. I understand there is a big problem with the differences between the dungeons. I can not speak about a 20 shadowmoon or COS since i never got my hands on that key. Which is another problem of M+. I think irrelevant for the discussion.
To me it would be totally fine when Raz heroic would give 421 in the vault too.
Anyway; i responded on someone asking why the ilvl goes up in the M+ vault and not for raiding. I think i explained it. When you want to reward high ilvl from a certain content, but do not want it farmable, but the content in itself is farmable content, you have to lower the farmable ilvl but reward higher in the weekly. It is what it is. I am open for other suggestions of course 
And raiding has multiple chances at high loot every week…
Yes, m+ is farmable, but only for the “bad quality loot”
Before the valor cap was removed you could not even upgrade 1 item to 415 every week…
Additionally, with the increased difficulty, for your average HC raider, what level of keys do they actually do? 15s? Bit lower maybe? So they get what, farmable normal gear and 1 HC piece per week?
Comparing raid to right now when valor cap has been removed is unfair.
But that being said it’s also unfair that blizzard goes “ah well, season is over” for m+ and does nothing for raid.
But that is another problem.
Raiding as it is now in wow is the worst aspect of the game for me, time consuming requiring specific add-ons etc.
Il never raid anymore until they revamp it, Sanctum was my last raid.
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