So true BM has no complexity and no thought at all. Our core rotation is 4 buttons with 2 of those kill comand and BW you literally just press on cool down, and then the other two kobra shot and barbed shot, you press to stop focus caping and to maintain a buff respectively. There is just no thought or determination in a rotation like that. Then if you add on that none of our covenant abilities really do much to the rotation either, and that the best looking ones all round (kyrian and night fae) are literally just set and get free damage, its not looking good for bm.
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still sey it boring
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God no. Just no
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there is its called demon hunter. Also no one is asking for classes to be super hard there just needs to be some level of thought in your rotation and BM has none. Wow needs to go back to the days when ur class was somewhat difficult or at least complex to play and the content was easier.
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I only recently started to level my first hunter and noticed that iâm using way more buttons than on my frost mage. Class feels pleasant, mostly because i donât lose all dps if required to move, moving ability (backflip) requires to do the 180 trick, which is fun (until i mess up, pull something and get yelled at) and i have a lot of utility.
Idk about rotaion simplicity - frost mage is âpress frostbolt until brain freeze procâ, assa rogue is âapply 3 dots and chillâ. Iâm actually pressing different buttons on BM and it feels rewarding.
I want to try out MM honestly, since iâm not that big fan of pets (had my fair share with warlock and frost, enough) and want to just do cool things with bow.
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Frost mage is far more complex than BM, if played right. Assassination, even though by far the easiest rogue spec, is still challenging to master.
BM is not as simple as most people think because you have to micro-manage your pet and maintain Frenzy to get the most out of the spec. BUT it is way simpler than it was in previous iterations and definitely simpler than both Frost Mage and Assassination.
Being able to keep DPSing while moving is great (and is often the main reason people like BM) but mobility comes at a cost, obviously. BM shines on fights requiring movement but itâll lag behind on damage on fights that donât. Thatâs fine by me - just saying.
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No, absolutely not.
Frost mage literally only has to shatter glacial spikes, and if you are using packed ice then you have to pump as many ice lances you can during frozen orb. WIth glacial spike you donât even cast ice lance unless you are moving or cleaving.
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This is purely subjective, would argue itâs not true though. No DPS spec is really even remotely complex right now.
In even half decent gear frenzy has 100% uptime. This was a thing at the start of the expansion but not now.
Not true. Iâd argue itâs slightly more difficult to play optimally than previous iterations purely because we are running around with insane levels of haste. BM is very easy to play at a basic level, but you can see by logs not many actually play optimally.
Well right now, it absolutely doesnât. It shines on almost all fights and absolutely does not lag behind on more stationary ones.
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I am taking into account both PvE and PvP and the toolkit each class has available overall, not just what builds work in the current meta.
Both those statements are (relatively) true. But I still think frost mage is more complex than BM, all things considered. As I explained above, this isnât strictly from a PvE pov, itâs not just about how easy a rotation feels to play, and isnât specific to the builds that are currently considered meta. While thereâs no truly complex spec in-game at this time, some specs are far more complex than others. Feral isnât really complex all by itself but itâs definitely more complex than DH, for example. Yes, we can argue about specs all day long but thereâs still a hint of objectiveness in these comparisons.
Admittedly, I donât know how BM has scaled with corruption gear. If what youâre saying is true and I have no reason to believe otherwise, that would mean it has become a lot easier to play the spec optimally.
Just to make sure weâre on the same page here⌠By âprevious iterationsâ, I mean how the spec was in previous expansions, not earlier in BfA. If we are on the same page indeed, I very much disagree with your assessment. I donât see how BfA BM is more complex / more difficult to play than literally every other iteration.
What youâre saying in regards to logs has always been true; regardless of iteration. And itâs not just a BM thing - youâll notice pretty much the same with every other spec (well, more or less since some specs are more punishing than others).
What I said is fundamentally true. Also:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/24
Thereâs no way a BM hunter can be allowed to do the same damage on a Patchwerk-style fight as a Fire Mage, for example (assuming equal gear and player skill). When that happens to be the case, you know youâre looking at a tuning issue that will sooner or later get fixed.
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Fro ma frenzy perspective? Obviously. But this has introduced other complexities (I say this lightly because nothing is really complex, but iâd argue itâs similar in difficulty to maintaining frenzy properly anyway) such as playing with 0.75 second GCDâs with extreme levels of haste and aspect uptimes.
Bfa BM wasnât complex, but it at least had things to manage that 99% of the population did not play perfectly (Frenzy uptime, DoD uptime, managing CS CDR properly). Comparing to the legion BM, where you could literally just spam out abilities with very little interaction or thought required. To state, I donât think either are particularly complex, but it simply never has been.
In your head, and perhaps logically youâd think so.
But the fact is itâs clear you have zero experience of recent tiers, because this entire tier beast mastery has absolutely pumped single target. At points this tier, particularly on progression when itâs most important, BM has been THE best ranged single target spec, even with no movement.
I have absolutely no idea why you are linking all boss rankings. If you had played this tier youâd understand that BM has been an absolute S tier spec. The only reason the top logs right now are mages/locks is because since the corruption vendor they can do some pretty disgusting things on FARM kills/kill times/cleave. None of this has any relevance to âa bm hunter can never be allowed to do the same damage as fire mage on patchwerkâ, which is horrendously wrong. In an imaginary world with perfect balancing then maybe, but thatâs not the world we live in.
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for me BM hunter is perfect.
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Right, I know what youâre referring to. I agree thatâs a complexity (saying the word lightly too) but Iâd argue itâs not one specific to BM.
I agree that BM is more complex now than it was in Legion. I also agree it was never a very complex spec. But I wasnât thinking about Legion when I said itâs not as complex now as it used to be in previous expansions.
No, no. Not in my head at all. Itâs a fundamental design principle and it has been like that as far as I can remember. Itâs not a discussion specific to the current tier. If BM tops single target, thatâs an anomaly that will be addressed.
It goes without saying there were tiers that BM topped meters (I can remember a few from past expansions) - that doesnât change the fact BM is not supposed to do as much damage as other ranged specs that arenât as mobile, on fights that donât require movement. And it usually doesnât. The fact that it does sometimes doesnât change that rule of thumb.
BM usually does very well when new raids launch because it is a highly-mobile ranged spec (which leaves little room for error) but other specs eventually catch up when people learn the fights and start utilizing their specs properly. If BM still tops meters at that time (gear and skill assumed equal), it will get nerfed or others will get buffed. Sooner or later.
I linked the logs because, if anything, they kinda prove what Iâm saying. BM might have been S-tier for some time and then it wasnât (in that same tier). How that happened (a corruption vendor or direct nerfs/buffs) is more or less irrelevant.
To be clear, I never had a problem with this (though I was playing MM/RSV most of the time). You donât have to top meters on all fights to be useful in a raid. Iâm just saying that ranged mobility does come at a cost, more often than not. I did not say that cost was not worth paying nor that it has historically put BM waaaaaay behind other ranged specs.
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It might seem logical, but the fact is that sometimes BM is good, and sometimes it isnât. There seems to be absolutely no relation at all between performance and mobility on a single target. In an ideal world then sure, but this is just simply not how it plays out. If it was, destro/arcane would be top single target, BM would be bottom. This has almost never been the case, and even if it has been itâs never because of mobility, itâs just down to tuning.
Well it tops meters right now, and has for the past six months. No nerfs or buffs.
Itâs still S tier. Anybody that actually plays the game will tell you that. It has some of the highest AoE in the game, highest single target in the game, it is excellent in virtually every situation. These logs show nothing - what you need is a more nuanced understanding of the fights that show why certain specs are good on certain fights. And BM is absolutely excellent on virtually everything important this tier. You cannot just look at the top 10 parses of each fight months into farm and come to conclusions about BM, especially when you have no experience at all from any of the fights from what I can see.
Itâs almost as if this hypothetical âmobility taxâ is nothing more than imagination. Sometimes BM is good, sometimes BM is bad, just like every other spec. Thereâs basically no indication that BMâs mobility has ever had much of an impact on this.
Any decent player will lose virtually nothing from movement anyway even as something like destro.
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There has always been this belief that BM suffered from âmobility taxâ but that was down to terribad scaling in later tiers more than anything else. If that was true BM would never shine in early tiers.
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Of course itâs down to tuning! But thereâs a reason tuning is done the way itâs done - what Iâm saying is rather simple.
Does it? The logs seem to portray a different story. But even if it does, that wouldnât change the fact that it usually lags behind other ranged specs on stationary fights.
Well, Iâve been around long enough to understand how the game fundamentally works and why certain specs perform well on specific fights. Even though itâs been a while since Iâve done high-end content, the fundamentals remain the same. From the little Iâve seen this tier, I have no doubt BM shines. And as I already mentioned, I remember other tiers that this was the case.
I can see why you would think itâs hypothetical but I beg to differ. It never had âmuch of an impactâ but it usually had some impact. Noticeable but definitely not ground-breaking.
Thatâs generally true. But not early on, when people learn how to deal with new encounters.
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Honestly canât believe you think tuning is that scientific. We didnât even get a balance patch this entire tier. They just let everybody play and bring in the insane outliers. What specs are good/bad each tier really is nothing more than a roll of the dice.
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No, I donât think that at all. As I said, Iâve been around long enough! 
What Iâm describing is the design intent when tuning is performed. Thereâs no guarantee that intent will come to life, especially when you add many hard-to-balance variables to the mix (like essences, traits, corruptions, and so on).
So yes, it feels like a dice roll. Blizzard has always been slow with subsequent tuning passes (after the specs go live on high-end content) but theyâve been much slower recently.
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So even if this âmobility taxâ did exist, itâs utterly irrelevant. So why even bother trying to argue for itâs existence? xd
You donât know this though. This is just what you assume from what seems logical. In reality itâs meaningless.
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Fair enough - call it an assumption. But itâs not just that it is the logical design intent - we have 15-yearsâ worth of data to back it up. Thereâs a mobility tax much like thereâs a hybrid tax. It doesnât always show (because tuning doesnât always pan out the way itâs meant to) but that very well seems to be the design intent Blizzard has aimed for through the years.
Câmon now. I can just as easily ask why you even bothered trying to prove it wrong. I wrote it, you replied, and here we are.
Being able to âkeep doing damage while movingâ comes up all the time as a key aspect of the spec people enjoy. I feel itâs relevant in that context even though it might seem irrelevant if you consider the minuscule difference it makes and all other variables in play that might make it seem like thereâs no difference at all (fights favoring movement, player skill, gear, etc).
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Blizzard have literally said the idea of a hybrid tax died several expansions ago.
An aspect people enjoy, sure. Doesnât seem to have much impact on tuning though. Sometimes we are good, sometimes we arenât.
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