Might be. Also, my experience in my pug was my own group. I just needed tarragrue to get the vault. And I decided to make my own group. Took me over 1 hour, 4-5 wipes and idiot healers whom had a big mouth but did not even knew how to dispell the raid, but we killed him… Not to mention me having to explain the mechanics all the time after each wipe for all the new people. And people whom would die from mist then leave the group… I surely had a really good pug run. /s . And funny, I used to make a group for like 2-3 weeks at least for first 3 normal bosses and we did not had much issues, only in the begining. But I can start at least to see why people take curved individuals in pugs. As for the pvp, like I said before, I do not know fully how everything works. I am just assuming that skills are going to be better the more time you spend playing. Am sorry if I seem ignorant here 
… And I do agree that people started to boost more often. But they do it because there is a big demand over it. I remember back during legion there weren’t many boosting comunities. When I first got my argus curve it took me a long time to even fiind a group since they were very rare and it was risky. But people whom have the skill to down the raids and dungeons saw an oportunity to make gold. Which is good since they have a reason to improve their skills and maybe it makes others also interesting in getting good over it. Overall boosting would not be such an issue if there weren’t so many people out there whom wanted them, like I said before. This is why I was saying what I did. Some people might be greedy yeah, but it started after people saw that it was profitable. If there weren’t that many people willing to pay gold for boosts, the boosters would not see a reason to do it. And people would not need any kind of boost if the content was more accesible to your regular players. Like I said before, it’s easier to farm the gold needed for a hc run than killing it with pugs. Not everybody has money and time to waste just so they can kill one boss because people are incapable to listen to others calling out mechanics. And rather than waste the gold on consumables just for them to go to waste, people would rather use that gold for other things instead . I am happy if others can have an easier time finding good pugs to kill the bosses with. But some people will have different pugging experiences and that will make them take certain decisions.
Hah, but now curve doesn’t guarantee anything, maybe person just bought boost and then afk insta-died on every boss while being carried to achievement. Lots of clueless raid leaders still relying on this though, but really presense of curve does not mean anything at all now, just noise. And it’s circular - clueless groups looking for curved people → people buying boosts to get curve → curve becomes more worthless and those ‘curved only’ groups wipe over and over → groups keep inviting only curved people to ‘avoid wipes’, something like that.
Aren’t there prices in millions? Farming millions of gold is easy, what? Am i missing something? If you use some bots or multiboxing - maybe, but on one account manually? How many hours would that require?
But anyway, at least PvE boosting does not ruin game experience of others directly, unlike PvP boosting.
If you were actually concerned with boosting you would know the actual prices for HC runs are not millions at all far from it .
You have showed through out the thread how much you actually do not know about the boosting scene at all .
Also how your guild gets away with that name i never know its childish and rude .
The forums were running a group boosting people to curve back then for the mounts for free same as the did for HFC in WOD .
Also there was a group formed for ali and horde in BFA for Nyalotha just keep an eye on the forums if and when it happens again as people gladly form groups for the mounts and curve’s for free.
i remember you guys did it for forumeers and Kyrel posted that thread during 8.3
how many weekly resets did you lead people for their curve?
pretty sure it was more than one
I think 3 on horde and 2 on ali if i remember was fun times as we also did the meta achives aswell .
ah yes, the collective photo on these mounts
silly me, i saw them, but forgot
i do miss pvp event, i am up to join you on my horde hunter! 
may be you will host one more some time later?
It was a fun event but im no longer in FF anymore BUT saying that something could still be done 
While I agree that curve is not fully helpful when you pick your people, not everybody whom has it got it by being boosted. It’s just like with rio score. Just because someone has curve/score etc. it does not mean that they neccesarily got it themselves. But it’s lowering the risk of having a person whom has no clue about what they are doing. Taking people wih no score/experience will in 90 % of cases result in failure. In my own experience, after I got rio addon and started to take people with score, even if it was an appropiate score to what the key was and not way higher resulted in less morons wiping or leaving my keys than when I would just take anyone of a certain ilvl . And I would rather take the risk of having someone with curve whom maybe might have some experience over a person whom never saw the fight and probably might not even be listening when I explain tactics, causing constant wipes and waste everybody else’s time. Also, the hc carry is under 1 mil gold at the moment. It’s always high in the begining, but goes lower and lower at the moment. Back during cn, I got a full hc run towards the end on an alt for like 250k . Which I expect to be the case here later on towards the end of the patch. Also, not everybody whom gets once boosted sucks. I usually still research the boss fights in case I want to continue raiding on my own even after I get curve. Back during antorus even after I got my curve I learnt the mechanics and was pugging full normal raids on multiple characters ( not every week but occasionally would switch alts and just do the raid ) . Also, I do agree with the fact that it must suck in pvp to encounter people whom boost. So I can sympathize with people whom are frustrated. I do not know if this can be sorted out to soon. Guess you will just need to keep on trying and will eventually get the rating if you keep going. Doubt boosters are there 24/7. There are also genuine people out there whom do pvp on their own xD Also as for the farming question, it does not require for you to multibox or bot to get gold. I was playing on a low pop server before transfering my main to ad. In a week I got like 1 mil and a half so I can transfer this toon and get snowstorm mount by getting my druid to herb and mine. I spent the whole day every day for 1 full week getting the materials. Herbs I would turn into flasks which sold for like 900-1k gold each and I would craft them in batches of 100 every day. Which would sell pretty quick. So 100k almost every day from selling flasks. And the ores I would sell directly. Which were expensive. So I managed to get 1 mil very easily by taking a break from doing dailies or most of the stuff and just spent farming. Luckily I do enjoy farming, especially while listening to stuff so doing it for hours it’s not an issue for me 
Imagine farming for hours to pay for someone to play the game for you.
Can’t think of anything more idiotic.
yes it seems so furry cult leader 
The pvp gearing system in totaly designed to encourage boosting.
If they removed the rating req and you could just upgrate gear by farming CP, then boosting would be gone in an instant.
Its that easy…but they dont do it, so they obvisouly support boosting…
The only thing is, it backfired on them cause people would rather quit than “git gut” at a terribly unfair game…
2mil subs and still droping 
You have to trinket the stun into immediate CC on the rogue to force them to trade defensives and CDs with you. For example Imprison (not a stun)
Presumbely in this situation your partner is sapped? If your partner is sapped by a rogue then yes they shouldn’t be trinketing it ideally, and you should aim to stay away from the rogue’s likely position (which is hard given they’re invisible) but as a DH you can move around very quickly, the main thing to do during this (depending on the arena) is maintain an obscure LoS to prevent the rogue shadowstepping you.
If it’s not likely that you’ll be able to prevent the rogue opening on you, the best thing to do in this situation is allow your partner a safe trinket for the sap, by getting at least 20 yds away from your partner. If you do this and they trinket, the rogue cannot open on you and blind your partner because blind has only 15yds range, this forces the rogue to choose between maintaining their opener on you (which they want to do due to CD use) or to focus controlling your partner (which forces them to move out of position). If they don’t control your partner your partner has a window of healing on you (depending on what the rogue’s partner is doing).
This is one of those situations where having a healer like a holy paladin is just miles better for you, as the Paladin can safely trinket the sap and cast Sac on you, which means if the rogue blinds them, it will be broken immediatley by any damage on you, making the paladin unable to be controlled unless they are the focus target with stuns (which they can break with DS) and they can save you with BoP (as sub rogue attacks are considered purely physical in their school which means they cannot touch you under BoP).
Regarding keeping a rogue in combat even when they CLoS or evasion (to avoid being hit) the solution here is to taunt them. Taunt cannot be dodged or resisted and it forces the target into combat with you for at least 5-6 seconds neatly prevent a restealth until you can hit them with an ability. When I can with my WW partner as holy, taunt is actually a very useful ability versus rogues trying to restealth on you by snaring you then running off. Taunting them just before they disappear out of LoS is a really good way to keep them idle and exposed hopefully buying enough time for your partner to get on them.
Regarding the “i found a rogue at half health in shadow dance and he murdered me” you need to understand that for many sub rogues stealth isn’t the “big damage” necessarily, it’s simply the momentum provider. Many sub rogues will run something like Invigorating Shadowdust in arena (so their Vanish refreshes their other CDs allowing their blind to desync with enemy trinkets) so their stealth doesn’t give them a big burst unlike Mantle of the Master Assassin.
Their big damage is tied more purely to Shadow Dance and use of Shadow Blades + Symbols, which doesn’t require the rogue to be in stealth at all. Sub rogues are dangerous when their cooldowns are up. When their cooldowns are down even if they open on you from stealth, they’re not half as dangerous.
Shadow Blades provides 50% extra damage (plus 1 CP) on builders (and SS hits hard anyway), Shadow Dance is 15-30% more damage and Symbols 15% more damage. There are oceans of difference between the damage of a sub rogue using all of these on you and one who isn’t and their use has nothing to do with stealth. Stealth is merely the way to control the fight from the start.
In this situation (assuming you run with a priest as your second) Priests, simply put, aren’t amazing versus rogues. They lack mobility, they lack ranged CC, they lack ways to disable rogues and they don’t have a huge amount of externals (outside of Pain Suppression) that are effective versus rogues. They can’t dispel poisons and so often have their healing output versus Sub rogues nerfed by about 18% due to wounding poison as well as being constantly snared by crippling poison (and you) which means the rogue can restealth really easily.
Consider a Holy Paladin for example. The Paladin can dispel poisons for a start. The Paladin can sac you to prevent themselves being blinded/sapped, they can use DS/BoP to break stuns on you/themself. They can freedom snares and they have a lot of heals they can cast without having to channel leaving themselves free from kicks. They can make themselves immune to kicks for a brief period and they’re very durable. They can taunt rogues to keep them in combat.
Monks also (with their buffs) very mobile, very durable when being stunned. Can dispel poisons. Can talent for a disarm on a rogue (huge), have instant ranged CC that doesn’t DR with your stuns. Have Cocoon for a decent clutch.
Of course a good priest will still handle a good rogue and keep their partner fine, but the fact remains the rogue (sub especially) is the definition of a “cooldown class”, they thrive by throwing big cds around until their opponent cannot trade back, and then they overwhelm the opponent (which is why many play Shadowdust and Thieve’s Bargain, because it allows them to chuck their big cds around very liberally). The Holy Paladin is the antithetical healer to the rogue because the Holy Paladin has a ton of CDs to trade with rogues which allows them to answer many of the rogue’s attempts to control the match without giving up momentum, instead forcing the rogue into a lacklustre use of their own CDs (like burning Vanish early to try and reset the fight).
It sounds awful as well but DH (outside of spectral) is another class less well suited to rogues. You rely on magical-based stuns to control them in combat (which they can immunity) otherwise you have no way to stand toe to toe with them outside of Blur (many rogue abilities make targetting your back easy with makes Blur much weaker) and importantly you have no way to disarm the rogue (which is arguably the best form of control versus them).
Consider instead of being a DH you are a Monk (or rogue), the Rogue Cheap Shots you and you imemdiatley trinket and disarm them, in that single second you have swapped the momentum of the fight into your favour as it forces them to vanish or use their trinket on your disarm. If they do vanish, they now have to wait 15 seconds for the cheap shot DR to reset which means you can move to their partner and usually force them to open on you with DR in play.
Fighting rogues without disarm is just pretty difficult as a melee (albeit not impossible).
meny peoples are unawear ther is 2 diff pvp gears in 9.1.0 itis the arena/BG gear then there a world pvp set the world pvp set is 10 ilvl higher 
I don’t know, I’m seeing trade chat spam like ‘HC SYLVANAS ONLY 500K’ etc, so I made some math for entire raid from it. Never actually tried buying boosts.
Isn’t it rude to stomp new undergeared players in arenas for gold though?
I think percentage of good players vs failers is now the same between curved and non-curved.
Somebody who has no clue could have gotten curve by being carried by booster group.
Yes, but curve doesn’t guarantee experience anymore. While there are those who try hard every week, killing some bosses on first try, but still haven’t gotten curve because they have hard time being accepted in good group.
I don’t know, I had many tanks failing on first bosses and leaving on +15 and they got rio higher than mine.
I currently have around 10k gold, and I’d have maybe 50k gold if not for rank 6 legendary. And that’s gold earned for mostly entire existence of character, idk how even some 800k is ‘easy to farm’, I never even got 100k. I didn’t farm all day long but did some callings and other gold stuff, sold some stuff on AH, also gathered and sold herbs and ore here and there, without that I wouldn’t even be able to buy legendary.
But the real problem is that if you replace getting actual raid experience with farming gold then after getting curve you’ll either need to get raid experience anyway (so it’s like double work), or turn into failer that will wipe groups.
Well, yeah, that works, but wouldn’t pugging raids take less time?
Yeah, I was usually doing exactly that. Then rogue just restealthes, then next stun (even DR stun) with all their cds and I’m dead in 2 seconds. Then ppl on forums started telling me that I “wasted my trinket” on first stun where they didn’t use cds. But really it’s either “waste trinket” or die, so it’s “die right away” or “die in next stun”.
One would need 2-3 trinkets to survive vs sub rogue it seems.
You mean I should just randomly fel rush across arena or what? Rogues just sit behind wall waiting for my spectral sight to wear off, it’s absolutely useless. And if I try to catch them using spectral sight then there’s shadowstep sap or shadowstep stun and I’m done.
Yeah isn’t easy when I don’t even see them.
I don’t think it will help when I’m bursted with all sub rogues’s cds + all mage’s cds. Also mage will just sheep healer.
Thanks, will try.
Well, as you saw they still kill during one stun.
Wait, sub rogues have poisons too? Didn’t know.
Yeah but I can’t pick specific healer class for every match, so it’s like rock-paper-scissors then.
Spectral is completely useless vs any good rogue or mostly anything stealthy, they see when I use it and just los until it’s wear off. If I fel rush to get to them behind pillar - they usually just stun me (and I’ll also be out of line of sight from healer since he can’t get there so fast so it’s risky for me). Idk how to use it correctly, it would work much better if they couldn’t see whether I’m using it right now or not (would be more fair imo).
I sympathise because the matchup you described isn’t favourable for you at all, and I say that as a player who has been a healer in arenas (Holy pala plus WW) but also i’ve done 2s as a rogue (with the same WW, some as sub, some as OL).
A good rogue is difficult to beat, especially when their cooldown game and control game is very good. You rely a LOT on your partner to help you when a rogue is in the game and for them to play optimally to prevent the opponent playing silly games with them, such as timing their trinket perfectly. Such is really important versus a mage to prompt them to break their DPS burn on you to repoly the healer.
Positioning is also super important versus a mage so you can LoS the poly. Something as simple as the healer standing where they can see you, but the mage can’t see them, makes a HUGE difference in a fight like this, but I understand it’s not as easy as that, but working on positioning was a big thing for me and my partner when playing as the healer + monk combo, and once I worked on my positioning a lot better (making sure i’m typically in a position to LoS enemy ranged without cutting the monk off, and him supporting me by never placing me in a position where I can’t do that) led to a big amount of success alone because you force the opponent to waste time chasing you around or to let you have free reign to support your team-mate. As said though this is healer varying, because a holy pala can do a lot of support in a very small window whereas a healer like a priest needs to “stay exposed” to do the same kind of support.
I’m not going to stand here and say “just do as I said you’ll win” because sometimes the opponent is just better, and baits you, wastes your trinket etc. I’ve been on the receiving end of this myself where we just got outplayed, by the combo you mention as well (rogue/mage is hellish and DS was a godsend in those matchups).
All I can say is try the taunt, the key thing in any match against a rogue is knowing when they’ve got their CDs up (so you focus on disabling them) and making it a priority (you and/or the team mate) to prevent them getting a free restealth on you without having to trade CDs to do it, because if that happens then they have the opportunity to reset the DR and “waste” the trinket you may have used.
This is where (in my previous comments on your build) that “on demand” burst comes in handy, because if you can threaten a rogue’s partner with that, you can try and force them out of stealth early so they have DR (I mean, you’re saying a rogue is still killing you in stunlock on DR, which is max 3 seconds, they have to have some pretty big bang DPS to be able to do that) and the partner also needs to make it a priority (where poss) to disable/harass the rogue when they have you stunned such as saving stuns/CC for that moment in time.
It’s a thing that in theory should work but in reality is often hard.
I maintain however in my experience mages are still the class I hated facing the most because they’re super mobile, they’re ranged, they can switch burst on in a moment’s notice but also ice block any big nastiness. Spammable CC in poly is a pain in the backside to deal with because unlike the rogue the mage doesn’t need to expose themselves as much to try for CC whereas the rogue has to be fishing about in stealth to do so.
I think our comp helped us here. For example altho you have spectral sight as said it’s pretty lacklustre if a rogue knows how to play you, and priests have pretty crappy ways to check for stealth. As a holy Venthyr pala and a WW Monk we could typically (by looking at any unstealthed teammate or even guesswork) a fair amount of the time catch a rogue out of stealth by using Ring of Peace or Ashen Hallow to create a huge “no go zone” which either forces the rogue to engage without stealth or causes them to wait whilst we begin hammering their partner. This shows the value of the comp absolutely. I mean with DH and Priest (unsure of spec) you have at most one way to “prevent the kill” which is Pain Suppression or Divine Spirit. That’s it. Once they’re gone, outside of trinkets you have no way to “get the rogue off you” and those cds are big (2/3 minutes)
In our holy pala and WW comp we had to break a rogue off us:
- WW monk can disarm them if they’re on me, and not them.
- WW Monk can RoP me if i’m the target to keep the rogue off me
- If WW is the target I can BoP them to break the rogue
- I can sac the WW to reduce burst and make myself immune to breakable CC.
Now Ring alone and disarm only have cds of about 45 secs, which means highly usuable ways to get a rogue off of a target when stunned, and being stunned for even 4 seconds means little if the rogue in question can’t actually stick to you and is forced to back off such as with ring. This is where my Monk would Ring me, the rogue bounces off and the monk taunts him as ring fades to keep them in combat and then would follow up on the rogue when i’m free of cheap shot. If the Mage (in such a setup) was going ham on me, I always have DS to save myself if I need it but generally speaking my Monk was switched on enough to (at such a moment) where they see a mage fire up combustion on me, they’d para the mage to force them to either trinket or block to continue their burst, wasting a couple of secs of their burst either way, which is vital to allowing me to survive then LOS them and heal up (i’d only need a single holy light with DF + shock to get myself back to stable health, which is about 2 secs of activity).
This is where aforementioned communication (voice) is key because doing such to time in the moment is hard; unless you can instantly clue your partner up. For example when I’m stunned i’d immediatley call for Ring, and then when I spy the mage hovering near me ready to burst, i’d call out when they fire up combustion and the monk would respond, so long as he taunted the rogue, the rogue ain’t gonna be going invis for a bit, and monk can catch them very quick with dash/roll and flying kick and then lightning them to put them back in combat asap.
But in a match up with rogue plus non stealth, you tend to benefit from pushing the aggression big time, as the worst thing to do is allow the rogue to “set the tone” with a sap. You have to enter combat asap to have them forced to use blind to grab CC which is a much wiser use of trinket.
Keep at it all the same.
Cus fighting against randoms you couldn’t give a **** about, which is just there to make things you do take even more time. Adding constant nuisance that you don’t want to your own goals, after so many years of the same grinds that never changes enough is not fun after so many times!
This is why people buy boosts but people never ever think about this until they go through these experiences countless times.
I can do it just with normal dps, often mage health drops to half in seconds but then rogue stuns me from stealth and fun continues. Mages are super tanky so one The Hunt won’t do anything at all (even simple iceblock stops it entirely).
Well, I’ll just keep trying.
Paladin should have trinket + sac there. Pure misplay and miscommunication from both of you coming from a lack of knowledge of both your comp and the matchup itself.
You save your trinket for kidney bomb vs this, given that you play with a hpala.
You should realize that the rules on when (and who) should trinket depends highly on both your own comp and the matchup you are facing.
Just think about it. What will save you if you are caught in a 7s (if he plays deeper stratagem) or regular stun in a smoke bomb, without a trinket ? You die because paladin doesn’t have any option to save you unless he is close (in which case it’s a bad bomb).
If you were playing with a Disc priest, the rule would change. You would not trinket out of a smoke bomb because he can just barrier it and you’ll be fine inside it.
Hpala+DH, you have a lot of buttons to live through a go, but eventually the situation you died in in the first minute will happen - you caught in a stun with paladin caught in a fear and no button to press and dying 2vs1. You have to win before that, provided you will correctly use your buttons when the options are there.
Obviously better positioning in the beginning (not being omega stacked) would have left a gap between sap on you and cheap shot on you as the rogue kidneys your pala (or outright saps him to then come to you) for you to pre-something.
BTW, people are not trolling you. I saw people with very high experience here and on the Arena forums giving you valuable tips.
The problem is hpala underperforms vs many healer+dps comps, because no mc and no cyclone (maybe also no interrupt, not sure), so enemy healer just keeps healing. But there are lots of mage/rogue groups around too, so it’s rock-paper-scissors of some sort.
Ok so if I’m not with hpala what should I do on first stun? Rely on healer to trinket and outheal? But then they can just blind healer immediately and then it’s over, no? And if I trinket they just reset and it’s over too.