I’m actually nooot so sure about that… sure, we can say the 3v3s RMX is S-tier all the time. In 2s, though? It’s often just not the case because of how difficult to break through some of the healer-dps comps here are while the RM’s ability to survive go’s is just not quite enough. BfA s4 comes to mind where just throwing double claw at something and using a little bit of damage was enough to force out major defs thanks to no dispell on the RM’s side. Right now I’d say it’s A or B-tier too — arms/hpala, which is the clear S-tier comp and dominant on the ladder, is difficult for a RM to deal with and puts them at a disadvantage unless they clearly outplay.
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well, i played 4 chars at 2100 previous season (default mid mmr), rogue mage was BIS but no easiest at all, also 2dd is harder to play than dd/heal (facts).
but what is true, now much easy to play as a rogue with mage cuz of 2 points > mage has really HUGE survivability cuz of shields / seed / altertime, rogue can do restealth with dots cuz of conduit.
Btw still harder than dumbest comps like arms/hpal and etc.
xD
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That is not true. Mages has alot of options for other comps, that might actually be better. But rogues are currently being carried by fire mages, and they will have a harder time succeeding in other comps.
Because setup based comps like RMX, Jungle, Thug, RPS etc requires more coordination, awareness, and communication. The only argument for why RMX is not that hard is because how good fire mage is with combustion right now, but that still does not change the fact that the comp is hard to play at a high level if you want to maximize the potential of the comp. (I would not say that RMX is the hardest setup based comp though).
Melee cleaves is more about running people down with constant pressure. There is nothing hard about that.
Setup based comps still need to do this. That is not exclusive for cleave comps.
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Yes. Maybe I’m biased because I’m a priest player though I never played RMP but I definitely think RMx is always a tier 1 comp because it allows so many plays thanks to all the tools the three classes have.
Of course, the more tools you have, the complicated it gets at higher ratings but also the easier it tends to be at lower ratings to miss and still succeed.
Regarding popularity, I’d say it comes down to:
- RMx is quite a cliché WoW comp
- RMx extended toolkit and “endless” abilities make it usually really interesting to watch (and can be frustrating to play against)
- RM in 2s has always +/- been a thing, bar some seasons
- Rogue and Mage are definitely PvP classes
Also I think that the very nature of RMx is entertaining to progress and train as, the misplays you make are quite easy to see and the strength of the comp is that you can virtually defeat everything. Doesn’t leave you with that feeling of facing a counter comp and feeling like there’s a wall you can’t climb because you don’t have the required tools.
But while I think it’s definitely one of the hardest comps to master, I think the whole toolkit is definitely too much at “lower” ratings making it easy to outplay people with. I don’t see how they can fix RMx lower bracket popularity and success without hindering its performance at the very top. I’m not a top player and neither a RMP one so take this with a pinch of salt 
without taking a stance on the topic itself, I’m genuinely curious.
what do you guys envision the meta to be ideally in your utopia where rogue mage is not viable, which I think by extension would mean that all rogue and mage specs are just so bad that they’re not viable as individual classes period.
what comps and classes are part of that meta which would be much better than anything with rogues & mages in it?
The reason I phrase it like this is because pretty much since WoD or legion I can’t really remember rogues having any top tier comps outside of rogue mage, and I imagine if RM is so bad that it’s not really viable or good, it would have to be because either rogues are S12 level terrible so mages ditch rogues for anything else, or they’re both so bad that neither rogues or mages are wanted by most if any classes in 3v3.
How ironic that my post got flagged as trolling:
If this doesn’t prove the existence of unnecessary hate towards RMX I don’t know what will 
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I really do not feel like this is the case. Other comps require equally as much communication to survive and to set up kills. The difference is the timespan. RM kills every time they have a go every 20 seconds or so, where for others this time is double or even triple the amount.
Rmx has been good ever since its inception. Sure fire is busted at the moment but RMX has been solid for diffeeent reasons all these expansions, and still is.
Your kill potential is spread over a longer period. Therefore you have room to make more mistakes and be subject to those mistakes too.
Setup based comps are designed around securing the game quicker than cleaves. They also run out of steam sooner as a result. The reason why cleaves survive longer isn’t because they are easier to play, it is because they are designed that way.
If every single class had the explosive damage and cc potential on top of what they already have, then this argument would make sense. But it isn’t so.
These are all good points but none of them explain that if the comp is so skillbased, why is it so popular and at an s tier every single season? By normal distribution alone , the harder a comp is to play, the less you should see it as ratings increase exponentially. But, this is not the case.
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Maybe back in WOTLK when Rogue didn’t have infinite restealths and a get out of jail card by being able to Cheap Shot while recently unstealthed.
Back when Mages couldn’t move and cast Poly at the same time. Back when healers could freely cleanse Poly without any detriment or real cost.
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I don’t think they shouldn’t be viable- Obviously they should be, as all classes and specs should be in an utopia. I don’t even necessarily have an issue with them being an s tier comp, but the arrogance of (some) rogue and mage players when they say their spec/comp being busted is ok because they inherently somehow take more skill than all the other classes to play, thats what I take issue with.
Now to answer your question I feel that if there was a couple of comps designed specifically around shutting down high burst setup comps like RMP, I think the meta would be fine. Mind you, I don’t want those comps to be impossible to beat for rmp, simply an uphill one.
Somebody could even use this as an avenue to make tanks viable, though I think that would probably take the notch too far as well. Ideally there should be tanky comps, bursty comps and something in the middle comps.
Speaking specifically of seasons, I personally enjoyed MoP probably in due part because rogue wasn’t as oppressive as it has been since Legion.
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God bless turbo era 
You have no experience with playing a setup based comp it seems? You should try it. You could also watch different high rated streamers that plays different comps to see their point of views. You should be able to see that there is a clear difference in skill requirement.
You may not agree, but that still does not change the truth. I am sure that any high rated player that has played both point of views would say that setup based comps is indeed harder to play.
When you are playing a setup based comp it is on you to close out the game. You have to play well and score a kill, otherwise you auto lose vs cleaves.
This is a bit contradictory. Cleave comps has more tools to survive, which also makes it easier to counter setups. Warrior is a great example.
I agree, it should not be busted. But right now it is not RMX that is OP, it is fire mages.
The meta is more or less warrior/pala… that is a uphill battle for RMX already.
Is there actually a single comp that is good into arms/hpal or arms/rsham in 2s - Im not sure about that.
Use to it at this point I’m not even going to bother playing anymore. The 6 sec pet summon just made this spec completely unplayable
Imagine unironically using this word when referring to gameplay.
I have played it yeah- Actually thats how I got past 1800 first time this season as rogue priest shaman, but I didn’t like it. I prefer comps where I am more of a support dps and I secure the cc alone, while the other dps (usually a warrior) takes care of securing skills.
But as I said, this is really the prevalent bad argument in the first place: If i was any other class/spec we’d be talking about and I told you “haha, but have you actually played x comp? Until you do, you don’t get an opinion on whether they are too strong or not.”, I’d be laughed out of the conversation. But since it is again the special subject RMP, it’s fine.
I have not seen it and I know several others, people with much higher rating than I have ever had (or will have) have not seen it either. But just like your opinion thats just hearsay so I won’t delve too deep into it.
Do you know what the truth is, then? Because the truth, as far as I have argued in this thread, so far has been that RMP, despite being such a high skill comp, is an extremely popular comp even at high ratings where according to normal distribution the said comps numbers should come down exponentially, but they don’t. And this has been the case for several expansions- Actually ever since Wotlk.
When you are playing a non-setup based comp, it is your objective to close the game too, but your road to get there is different. Whereas a setup comp can do it more frequently and (quicker) than you can, you have tools to prolong the game to the point where you can close it. I don’t see it as less skillful, I see it equally skillful. You also have t play well and score a kill just like RMP does, or you auto lose. The only difference, again, is time. RMP has less time to make their plays but also gets to make them more often, while a melee cleave has more time to make mistakes/get punished for playing bad.
It isn’t contradictory at all. Rogues and mages both have extremely strong survival tools at their disposal and some even on relatively low cooldowns, but in general they can only use them in a short time window 1-2 times before they run out and thats when they flop over. Cleaves on the other hand usually have about as much defensive utility or a little bit more, but they are not as strong.
I don’t know man I definitely feel that rogue being able to restealth and get out of jail free card as often as it is is definitely busted. Sure mage is the biggest offender out of the two for the moment but I definitely feel like rogues having a trait that allows them to restealth sooner and/or having access to two shadowsteps / feint is definitely over the line. But that’s just me.
Well it depends what you consider an uphill battle. Both rogue (and especially mage) were played plenty in AWC’s, and there was RMP teams as well. True, RMP didn’t win the cup (they dont win that often, actually), but the fact that the comp is there, year after year, either speaks that it is an inherently busted comp, or that it is just better designed that a lot of other comps, which come and go.
Mind you I’m not saying that RMP is the best comp atm. I never said that. It has been and is to this date an S tier comp.
I agree, would add maybe when they did not have healing also 
In turbo enhance should be a god. In any turbo, doesnt matter if 2nd dps is warrior or ww. If enhance cant earthshield/offheal, close a cs with hex or close combust/convokes with the tools properly, no turbo would climb. Turbo jumps from enhance defensive abilities/ability to peel and press burst only when needed since ascendance is hella long to wait. All RMPs do is hope for shadowblades+combust opener, or at high ratings they can double cc and first go use only shadowblades, then pop combust after defs. No turbo has that retarded amount of direct cc chain as rmp does. Against any spellcleave with double decurse you dont have even a damn hex, only earth+conductor combo and mcap/stormbolt+legsweep/warrior fear, where legsweep or stormbolt even share the DR with conductors stun. Dont even tell how “skillcapped” rmp is, especially to disc players, where, you have a ton of possibilities to run around and not catch any cc + chill assist on a good opener. Healing any baboon melee as any healer is much harder then spellcleaves/rmx. Its so fun when 2 casters with rshaman trying to kick your schools+cc if your melees loose a single bit of pressure
That makes the comp alot easier btw. Because you do not need the same synergy and coordination. No one has to follow up on your cc without leaving any gaps, and at the same time maximizing their dps. You also do not have to be aware of everyone elses DRs all the time.
I was just asking. I dont mind, you can have an opinion either way.
That is true, but rogues is not doing very well though. The teams that are playing it is because they have exceptional rogue players that mainly only plays that class. But mages has a lot of options and is better played with hpala + mage + warrior / ww or in a caster cleave with hpala + mage + elemental shaman / shadow priest.
I’ll quote myself, I explained it here:
The less tools, the harder to outplay, but the easier to climb up to a certain “rating ceiling” - not including here top players who would just climb to the top of retail arena no matter what they would play. I don’t have comb representation stats but I don’t think there as many RMPs (or even jungle, another comp that quite stands along with RMP as a “skill based” comb, at least for me) between 1800 and 2200 as there are wizzards (mage or boomkin/x basically) or meleecleaves (arms/ret/ww + x).
I think a good way to determine the required skill to play is how well you can play it without any comms. You can definitely play turbo or mage/ele up to 2200 without comms by just game awareness and being good. Not sure you’ll have the same success as RMP if you consider evenly skilled players. Doable? Yes. In the same amount of games? Not sure.
We still need synergy and coordination. It’s just different. Instead of playing “you cc him, I cc this guy, you cc that guy”, I go “ok my cooldowns are up now, lets kill x.”
…Yes they do? If my warrior is killing something, we need to sure we don’t DR our stuns when it could be way better utilized on the healer.
No but the argument is still bad. Again, if I were claiming that you can’t have an opinion about, say, african turtle cleave being too op without playing it, I’d be laughed out of the conversation. But the moment I point out that actually RMP is good every single season and I think it is at the very least questionable if not problemaic, I get told that I must play that comp before I get an opinion on things.
It’s also a bit weird that you just assume that I clearly haven’t played the comp if I disagree with you about it- But it’s alright. We can agree to disagree.
Depends on what do you mean by doing “well”. There’s plenty of rogues past 2.1 for example, which is the last gameplay upgrade gearwise you can get. There’s still plenty past 2,4 too. Only when you get to the top 100 you start to see less of them, though this gets a bit better if you just list dps specs.
Like for example compared to demonology warlock or fury warrior rogue is miles ahead- But this is my whole point. What perspective do you use to say “it’s not ok” and what isn’t? What point of reference are you using?
But anyway, I also feel like we’ve drifted away from the topic. Obviously I want rogues and mages to be viable. I’d probably even be okay with them being S tier, I just think that instead of just echo chambering this myth that “RMP = more skilled than other comps” when the normal distribution tells the complete opposite, is quite telling.
I know, you said this before and I can respond again. I play a shadow priest, a class that with the rework gained a lot not only in terms of complexity and I feel, skill ceiling. I like it. It’s challenging, and despite not being the best, I enjoy the challenge. But equally, having played the other classes and played against them, I don’t think I should be getting the pass to just get to x rating because my class is somehow more harder (which is debatable on itself).
Another thing is that RMP succeeds in both “lower” and “higher” ratings (whatever they are, idk), so again, the argument that simply them having more tools doesn’t work.
By that line of thought arms warrior, having its utility back, should be actually recognized as an extremely skilful class (which, to be fair, it can be and really is in the hands of a really good player), since it has such a wide variety of tools to help your team and stop goes- yet the message very clearly in this thread and indeed arena forums alone is that warrior is somehow a no skill class, when rogues and mages have equally oppressive utility. The only difference is that the warrior doesn’t die as easily, but then again a warrior can’t reset as easily as a mage or rogue either.
And further with that line of thought, if having tools was the measure of skill and that classes that have less tools have it easier to reach certain rating ceilings, we’d see things like mistweaver monks doing just that- Yet, we don’t even really see them at lower ratings. So overall I think that logic is flawed, although I see the principles you try to bring out.
Nah, I don’t think it’s that at all. If anything having coms makes things easier if you just keep doing it, though most people just dislike voice in general because they’d rather not speak with strangers and I feel that’s absolutely fine. But that doesn’t make it more skillful, that’s just a tool for the team to try and use to reach their goals.
But in principle I do agree most RMP’s at any proper rating probably use voice, though I know several people also don’t, since they have played their classes so long they’ve just memorized being aware of DR’s, their cooldowns and their friends cooldowns. But this goes again for non RMP comps too.
But, I don’t think we’ll agree so I’ll just agree to disagree with you and I’ll be glad to leave it at that.