I liked the weapon system in GW2, changing abilities based on what you equip … would be cool, something like warr with axe would have mortal strike, and warr with mace would have devastate …
But that was like all, rest of the gameplay … and to be honest of the world too … was pretty boring …
Also dont know if that changed, but when I tried it, there was lot of stuff locked behind DLCs … you could basically play wotlk with other people, but no northrend or outland for you …
The article states that the ignore function has no effect across servers.
In a non-cross server environment, ostracization is not only a good tool but a natural one. Bad behaviour is punished. The ignore tool is pointless in a cross-server environment because either way you’re unlikely to have a repeat encounter with the person you want to ignore anyways.
Petty behaviour is not punished, it’s ignored* and eventually accepted. Go and read up on toxicity in gaming if you want more proof on that.
*Note that it’s not the player that is being ignored via any ignore-feature. It’s the behaviour that is being ignored.
It can happen in 5man pugs. Classic vanilla and classic TBC were proof of this. If it happens less in WLK it’s worth examining how WLK dungeons are different from TBC and vanilla ones. Because it’s more likely that there are key differences in the game design rather than pegging it all on changed online behaviours. I’m not excluding the latter – no doubt it plays a role. That does not mean it has to be that way always.
In short: Cross-server = no social repercussions to bad behaviours.
Does that mean that RDF did all the damage? Not necessarily. The design of WLK dungeons is likely as much to blame.
Cataclysm tried to revert the design by making 5 man heroics challenging again and this was promptly dumbed down to placate the wailing RDF-players who had become accustomed to easy loot. If zerg-content is your idea of fun then more power to you, but personally I’m happy that Blizzard decided not to go down that route again. Because it was the absolute worst part of WLK.
Pray tell, what exactly is the point of this sentence here? I get that you’re trying to mock me but I’d still like to hear you elaborate your thought process behind this attempted insult.
Which is nonsense.
https://www.bluetracker.gg/wow/topic/eu-en/11824414332-the-dungeon-finder-what-to-know/
If one character is on another character’s Ignore list, though, these characters will never be grouped together, regardless of how long either player has been in queue. This also applies to characters from other realms placed on one’s Ignore list.
This was true for BGs as well.
Also, Classic proves without a doubt that “black lists” and whatnot simply do not have the effect you think it does. There’s not a singular server discord out there without a black list that doesn’t do anything.
My boy, classic was boosting or spellcleaves for 5 mans. And boosting was vastly more popular, to the point of them having to nerf it.
Also, can?
It can happen in RDF too. Cause it’s not about the tool. It’s about the people.
It’s exactly the same in WotLK ones as it was in classic ones.
Say hi if you’re feeling up for it or simply leave it at a ty for run.
Seriously, go outside sometimes.
There has never been any of this anyway.
Ah, you’re one of those.
Yeah, sorry, Cataclysm heroics were overtuned and even organized groups would simply skip certain heroics cause they weren’t worth the bother. They left the day 1 patch undone cause they went on Christmas holiday.
The Cataclysm launch was cataclysmic.
Why? What is it you’re hoping for?
Shadowlands that’ll be transformed to your liking?
That if you want socialization from WoW you find a guild and do most of it on discord.
Exactly how we did it in the original, 'cept with teamspeak and forums.
You’re missing the point entirely. I am not saying that the function does not exist – just that the effect of the function is not really comparable to the social ostracization pre-RDF.
If you’re a ninjalooting scumbag in a non-cross server environment, people will take note and likely spread the word. Eventually this may lead to you actually struggling to find groups, as people will recognize you and have you kicked due to your past behaviours.
If you’re a ninjalooint scumbag in a cross-server environment and the whole team ignores you – big whoop. You just click the queue button and find new complete strangers who are wholly unaware of your shenanigans.
It’s not impossible, but try to log in on retail and run a dungeon and see how sociable the average player is. Most players who queue up for dungeons do so for the purpose of gaining exp and not for the purpose of socialising.
However, is there a reason to communicate in retail’s dungeon finder? People brought up GW2 and that’s not really a game that is known for its strong community either – because you rarely have to communicate with anyone. You can do it, of course, but unless others are inclined to communicate themselves you won’t get a response. Meaning the act of communicating becomes itself an effort as there exists no in-game need for communication meaning you’ll have to invent things to talk about, whereas in an environment like Classic it’s just a natural byproduct of playing the game.
Citation needed.
Overtuned according to you, perhaps. Unless you fancy backing this up with a source it’s your word against mine, and I don’t think they were overtuned at all. I had a blast with them.
Basically this: no matter how much they screw up whatever goal they have for WLK heroics, they simply can’t make them worse than what they were in the original game. I’d love to see the challenge of WLK dungeons ramped up to the level of TBC dungeons.
How is that the point of “Lol please, if you’re happy about classic communication you really need to get out more.” ?
How do I find a guild to socialize with on discord if I get out more? I don’t see the connection. Did you find your guild by going to your local pub?
Oh dear lord, imagine thinking this is a thing for 5 mans in OG, nevermind in Classic where the servers are 5 times bigger.
I wish I could make you reread what you just said and really sit down and think about it.
Lol k.
Good lord.
I do believe it’s your claim that there’s such a thing as social consequences so why is the onus on me for saying it doesn’t exist?
An old GM of mine ninja looted a bunch of BoEs from Molten Core and he is, as far as I know, still playing the game.
So you’re ruining the game for players who wanted the original WotLK back without having a reason to do so beyond ruining dungeons cause you feel they’re too easy?
And you, without a hint of irony, without a shred of selfawareness, sit here and tell people to “go to retail”.
Now we’re entering the topic of the mega-servers. Back in OG it was definitely like this.
Full quote:
It’s not impossible, but try to log in on retail and run a dungeon and see how sociable the average player is. Most players who queue up for dungeons do so for the purpose of gaining exp and not for the purpose of socialising.
This mindset of dungeon grinding for exp is a hallmark of retail, and the exact opposite was true in Classic vanilla. In Classic vanilla dungeons weren’t easy to get to and you had to assemble your team yourself. By the time you got to the dungeon in Classic you could’ve run the dungeon twice over in retail.
The reason you want RDF so badly is because you desire this mindless approach to dungeons. The reason I don’t want RDF and why I applaud Blizzard for attempting to keep dungeons relevant is because when I queue for a dungeon I’d rather have the time spent be meaningful rather than mindless.
Because I gave you scientific articles that talks about social consequences. I thought you read them. You made the counterstatement that there never were any social repercussions to bad behaviours. Where is your source on that?
Yes, that is exactly what I am doing. Because I have that power over the game. [Insert hint of irony]
Btw you never answered how you found your guild at your local pub.
It really wasn’t, but sure, pretend it was.
My boy, no one does a 5 man for socializing.
That’s the entire point.
They have something they want from the 5 man, be it badges, rep, achievements or gear.
Literally nothing has changed for heroic relevancy from RDF.
It’s run for badges now.
It was run for badges with RDF.
Absolutely not a singular change.
“Scientific article” that goes, and I quote:
While more players decreased wait times, the new system changed how players interacted within a group.
Yes, very scientific and not entirely feelscraft.
Sorry, this isn’t how science works.
It’s what you’re arguing for though, correct?
How on earth are you making drama outta me telling you “hi” followed 10 mins later by “ty for run” isn’t a good social interaction that you’ll remember 2 mins later?
That’s all it was. That’s why I’m ignoring your followups on it.
If you desire this kind of social interactions, just say “have a nice day” when you buy groceries.
It was you who said:
I would think the Hawaii International Conference on System Sciences has slightly more credibility on the topic than Jeynar the armchair general. But I am not at all surprised you disregard it. Anyways, there are more articles than just those two but you’ve proven like so many others in the RDF-crowd that it is pointless.
I don’t care whether you want RDF or not, I oppose your self-obsessed attitude of “things are the way I view them and nothing else can be true”. We approach the game differently. You deal with GDKP and boosts and what have you, I’ve always avoided that stuff. And in doing so I’ve managed to find likeminded people who have all began as complete strangers but who I’ve through repeated encounters befriended. I’ve greatly appreciated my time in Classic vanilla and Classic TBC because of the social environment that I deem missing in retail and other, more modern MMOs.
Is WLK different? No doubt. Does that mean WLK has to go down the same path WLK did in 2008? Blizzard doesn’t seem to think so. I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt – if only because there’s no real way they could make the expansion worse than it already was. Which is why I’m satisfied with WLK Classic whereas you’re here endlessly whining about the same feature for literal months.
And yet they stated:
While more players decreased wait times, the new system changed how players interacted within a group.
Without anything to back it up.
So you can think whatever you damned well please honestly.
What’s with your utter lack of selfawareness?
OK, so what is the end goal here?
Beyond your stated “I just hate easy dungeons” goal cause I assure you Blizzard doesn’t care about that.
This is wishful thinking, not reality. In reality every blacklist channel on the 3 server discords I go to is just a clown show of “need more proof”, “that screengrab looks doctored” and “I think I’ll blacklist you (the complainer) instead”. Frankly, I haven’t even looked at one to check a specific person since like 6 months into TBC. There is effectively no blacklisting and no community consequence for anything on Earthshaker, Firemaw and Pyrewood,which is a vast majority of all English speaking Alliance players. Not that it matters, because what can you even do in a dungeon? Go afk? What if your cat is on fire, should you be blacklisted by all server? People only do daily for badges anyway, so the worst sin you can do is delay the acquisition of said badges by being undergeared and or bad. And how can you effectively blacklist for that?
We already play in effectively RDF environment since early TBC, just without any of the benefits.
All the communication I did in Classic dungeons was related to where to go, where to get the quests, where to finish the quests. Things you needed in the dungeon, the purpose you went there - xp and item rewards. Even in TBC most of the communication was “do this skip”, “pull/dont pull this group”, “please don’t leave, we will modify our strategy thus and not wipe again”. Again just minimum words needed to get the rewards. In wotlk, dungeons are streamlined enough and players knowledgeable enough that no words are often needed and thus not being said.
You are happy with WotLK, but you still want to make it different. For what? For other people who are some “majority” and do stuff “somewhere else”? So you can enjoy the game less and be unhappy? Don’t do it to yourself.
I’m relatively happy with the parts I do play of WotLK yes, even if I’m not particularly fond of Blizzard doing stupid crap like buffing ilvls.
I would love to play the game more though, but staring at a chat for hours on end hasn’t been my cup of tea for a long time.
I just queue myself into LFG with the right note and let raid leaders do the staring. I get some whispers and chat with people a bit before being invited into a group, all social-like. Wait, that’s like the best of both systems!?
Who is talking about raids?
Group leaders, sorry.
But yeah, I do the same thing for pug raids on my alt.
Scuse me sir, this is an RDF thread, who is talking about raids?
Ill check it out tomorrow then.
No rdf in gw2 tho i hope? :3
Yes, please. I’m on a high population realm, level 80 heroics are completely dead outside of the daily at peak times.
Everyone who doesn’t want it can just not use it.
They do have a group finder of sorts but it’s not cross-server (to my knowledge). However, I’d also say it’s not very good. There is an incentive for people at max level to do lowlevel dungeons, and there is level-scaling. So if you’re new to the game and want to experience the old dungeons there will be people to play with.
There’s a caveat though. The level scaling doesn’t really do a very good job bringing down the power level of the max level characters. And the people who join and are at max level are very rarely talkative. They will join and they will absolutely carry you through the dungeon – which isn’t very fun. When I queued for dungeons with the intent of actually experiencing them rather than be carried through, I would write that I preferred to play with level-appropriate and new players. In spite of that I would have max level characters join who wouldn’t even wait for the group to fill before they began.
Hi Terres,
Firstly thank you for sharing the article with us. I’ve read the whole thing and there’s certainly some value to it.
In summary the researchers view DF not to be beneficial to the social structure in the game. But there’s a lot to be said about how they come to their conclusion that they don’t adress in their discussion.
They’ve played a total of 24 dungeons in both weekends and non-weekdays. That’s 24 interactions with 4 other people. Is that enough to make big statements?
They don’t adress at what hours of the day they’re playing. Did they play late at night, during peak hours or during the day. What kind of impact could that have on the social interactions? (e.g. are people tired, or are the researchers playing at times only a certain age group is online?)
They base their findings on another study that states quality interactions (bluntly said) should start with a greeting and end with a bye and there should be some form of social controle by ‘others’ so the groups norms don’t deterriorate. They use this precept in order to analize transcribed interactions, but they don’t show us (in the article) if and how they quantified the data in order to come to their conclusions. There’s a big gap there.
Besides… They come to conclusions about the game state only analizing one group (the group that has RDF to play dungeons with). They don’t have a control group that doesn’t use RDF to see if they would do ‘better’ socially.
TL;DR:
The study brought forward is interesting, can be viewed as a great beginning for further research and is food for thought. It can not, however, be viewed as proof for RDF weakening the social structure of WoW in (2009/2010?)
Would be great to use the same methods to do some further research. Compare the two and see if things are different or not haha!.
[Edit] I see you’ve posted another study in your main post. If I get around to it I’ll read that too. Thanks again for sharing.