And? Beside that this is changing consistently depending on the meta, why do you think that you can directly copy it to buying gaming advices on an external side?
Think logically. All rogues and mages tell you that they need so much more skill and zugzug doesn’t require any skill. So what are most obviously the customer of skill capped?
Ah, so you and skill capped are saying that Assa dropped 2 tiers compared to two weeks ago without Assa receiving a single nerf? Just think about it!
Let me correct you. Rogue was RET LIKE BROKEN in SL season 3 and 4. Even in season 1 and 2 they were broken, but at least they had some competition there. And they were S tier until two weeks ago, but are still in solid A tier, no matter what skill capped tells you.
You have to be a narcissist to hold your own point of view greater than the countless sources I have provided that tell you the CURRENT state of the game. Its a common mechanic of a narcissist, that regardless of what you present to them, they will do anything they can to discard it, because nothing is more important than the point of view of the narcissist. To most people, when they are presented with overwhelmingly large datasets, they tend to doubt themselves and their own point of view. Few people will take the fight and claim all others to be wrong, and the narcissist is one of them.
I am. I have a masters degree in physics. The science of logic.
Our conversation is like this;
You make a an assertion.
I provide causally linked data that challenge that assertion.
You then either (1) make a counter assertion with non-causally linked data such as using outdated data from previous patches to assert the current state of the game or (2) have somehow forgotten your original assertion so I have to outline it here for you to remember.
Logically speaking, you are breaking the causality of events by communicating like this. In simple terms the conversation looks like this:
You: “It rains today”
me: “no it doesnt. Here is the weather forecast”
you: “look out of the window! The road is wet. Think!”
me: “yes, it DID rain, but currently it does not, according to these sources. Your original assertion is not true”
you: “do you really think those sources are honest? It is well known that weather forecasts are biased towards non-rain forecasts. 2 days ago i walked outside and got wet, so just THINK logically. Its STILL raining!”
I am not sure if you can see it, but your form of argumentation, logically speaking, often ends up with counter arguments that are not causally linked to the original assertion. As an example, arguing that it rained today because it rained yesterday are not causally linked. Equally, you cant say that you rolled a six with a six sides dice just because you rolled a six yesterday. They are not causally linked, so the counter argument becomes hollow, and misses the point. This is the essence of the problem in our discussion, and why we wont ever progress beyond this stage.
This is an awkward way to further your argument… First you disregard SkillCapped completely as evidence because of their biases, but why would they list Rogue in S- and A-tier if they have this secret agenda?
So what matters is what you tell us? And the general consensus of the forums are just a bunch of crying rogues? I’ve played rogue since 2006. Even though I’m not an AWC player, I have a very good understanding of the state of the class, as well as most others. I don’t bother giving feedback where it’s in a weak state, medium state or slightly disadvantaged state. I don’t bother without having tested thoroughly. I do it now because it’s currently absolutely useless and gives no feedback to well executed gameplay. That makes the skill level needed to land kills go up to a point where it’s not even a point playing the class, because anyway in the end you’re gonna struggle against lesser players. Aswell as being solely dependant on coordinating with another player, which doesn’t work in Soloshuffs. Especially compared to other classes, who can make mistakes on their win condition and still cheese games. I’ve made a forum post on Subtlety Rogue specifically, which goes a bit in detail on the matter. There’s great input from a couple of 3k rogues there, go check it out, since you don’t seem up to date on the current situation.
It cannot even happen, because you’re missing the most important thing that’s the human element. No one plays perfectly. The only way the recent nerfs to rogue make sense to me is because of this aswell: too few players pressed defensives on rogues’ burst before going to the forums and complained about it. The result is now that any class is able to sit a rogue go with minimal to any reaction needed. Warriors don’t have to press anything but Ignore Pain when they see rogues go for a kill attempt.
Still, whatever previous state any class has been in shouldn’t decide if they’d be nearly stripped of their kill potential. Every class and as many specs as possible should be able to compete very far up the ladder. No class however should be this punishing under 2k.
I think you simply don’t get my argumentation! You basically stand there and claim, that rogues drop 2 tiers with the recent patch without receiving a single nerf and your ONLY source of that is a video of an external company that makes money by selling other people knowledge to might improve their gameplay.
That’s like denying Einstein’s theory of relativity and using the church as a source. Where we come to the next point
Congratulations, then start to think as one!
I simply wanted to see if he still respects his own source when it doesn’t support his point of view anymore.
And you are missing the point of it. Because the enemy teams either play perfectly. So how is the argument a valid one if they say that they rely on enemies to do mistakes to win the game. Because that is for any team like this, especially if they want to beat a RMX.
Are you seriously telling a person with a degree that they are thinking wrong and should start thinking correctly? Can you not hear how absurd you sound. How low your metacognitive abilities must be for you to not see the absurdity in your behavior.
No it is not. What a misunderstanding this is on so many levels. Look, pvp is about players killing players, hence the name. The player versus player interaction requires two parts in the calculation of results. If we take it from Player A’s perspective attacking Player B, we get two modifiers;
Player A damage modifiers
Player B defence modifiers
Thus, the killing potential of Player A is not entirely dependent on Player A’s modifiers, as suggested by you. Player A will have to give twice as much effort in damage to kill Player B if Player B’s defensive modifiers were doubled from one patch to another (simplified to help understanding). Thus SkillCapped tier lists are a reflection of this dynamic since PvP is always an interaction between the different classes. This is different from PvE were you CAN isolate a single class from patch to patch in terms of damage output.
I return to my previous post. Since you have a tendency to forget what I write just 1 post ago, please refer to my previous answer from now on.
Your education do not make you smart at everything, btw.
Tree surgeon can have more knowledge and IQ, then some professors, tree surgeon just don’t have ambition or will to do something about it just to show others something.ect. long topic to talk about.
meta is what makes tiers. If the meta changes due to X class being changed, and that causes Y class to emerge/disappear (X can be Y in this example, or not), then if Z class was completely countered or completely destroying class Y, then the change of representation of Y will have a direct impact on Z’s.
It really is like nature. If you take an area with wolves and rabbits, and humans come in and hunt wolves, then the rabbit population will increase despite them not becoming more adept at surviving or anything. The other way around, if humans suddenly stop hunting wolves, the wolves population will increase, and the rabbit one decrease despite the change being made to wolves, not to rabbits. Now the Rogues are the rabbits, the Rets/Arms/BMs wolves. Their popularity all increased (due to Ret being busted and the other two pairing really well with it) and CONSEQUENTLY Rogues have a harder time in their environment because these specs destroy Rogues. But Rogues have not been changed themselves!
since 10.0.5 and the last “tiering” Rogues actuay have been nerfed several times through hotfixes.
So in the end, since last time, Rogues were nerfed, and their counters are swarming. WHAT A SURPRISE THAT IT DROPPED TWO TIERS, WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT !
I am telling a person who claims to have that degree to keep thinking open minded and logically. Especially as a physicist, you should be familiar with the concept of what a theory is and that just because someone claims something (like the Earth being flat) and it supports the own worldview, it doesn’t necessarily correspond to the fact!
Wrong! You are missing out the most relying part! Player A’s cc, e.g. something like stun lock and player B’s possible interactions during stun. Just as an example of “anti modifiers” if we want to call it like that.
But PvP is also a misleading term for 3s, as it is more comp versus comp. So the P in PvP doesn’t stand for player in this context, but for players (plural). That is a huge difference.
Anyways, this conversations starts to become annoying. I doubt that rogue dropped 2 tiers but even if they did, they were S tier or had at least a S tier comp for the past decade. Being just average for once won’t hurt them too much, as they can finally find out their true skill level when not the class is carrying them.
I agree. 100%. In this context, however, my degree was relevant, which is why I mentioned it. I normally dont like mentioning my degree, but when the above person kept undermining all other sources of information, I had to push an objective proof of knowledge, which is what a degree is. Furthermore, the average IQ of a masters in physics is 127 with a smaller spread than the regular IQ bell distribution curve, so I would need to be an extremely unique individual to have gained a masters degree in physics with an IQ below 100, thus statistically speaking, it is safe to assume with high probability that what I am writing most likely comes from a knowledgeable place.
It is remarkable how similar your behavior is to the literature on narcissism. Remarkable! I would advice to watch some videos from Dr. Todd Grande on your behavior, you might also he surprised how similar it is! I ofcourse know from the literature that you wont do this. Instead you will probably either ignore it or mention that I dont have a degree in psychology, which is true and which is why I refer to Dr. Todd Grande, a PhD in psychology.
Most common behavior of a narcissist is often misuse or misunderstanding of technical terms, and refusing to accept that they are used wrongly. A great example is here:
Here you missed the word modifier which does not refer to CC. A modifier specifically refers to a parameter that adjust the number values e.g. the damage or healing, the underlying calculated mechanics.
Furthermore, the literature also specifically states that for a narcissist, winning is the most important, and you are always very focused on telling me how wrong I am or how you are superior. But Im afraid to say it, but I see right through your behavior, and you evidently do not know what you are talking about.
I didn’t miss it, you just missed that PvP is a lot more than Player A is hitting player B.
And now you’re even trying to be a psychologist, Dr. Freud? How about a self-diagnosis then regarding your need for recognition and not wanting to lose?
You really want to continue this? Alright, have fun, I won’t get a notification about that anymore.
I dont want to win, I dont care about it. But as it stands, my favorite class is the rogue, and as of patch 10.0.7 I am unable to play fairly, therefore I am here with an agenda of balancing the game by voicing the current issues. You then decided to infiltrate the conversation and tell us all we are wrong, that SkillCapped are wrong and that the class is actually OP, according to you, the superior mastermind here. So you see, you made yourself an opponent of the external agenda that I have. For this, I do not care about winning, but I DO care about the employees of Blizzard not reading your clueless answers and getting a false image of the current state of the rogue class in pvp. Therefore I respond, each time supplying external information as to why your opinion is not a reflection of the current situation.
Why you have an agenda to undermine rogues on these forums beats me, but here we are.
They did receive several nerfs. Assassination has been nerfed the most frequently I’ve seen in a long time if ever. The latest round of Subtlety nerfs came at the same time Ret was buffed through the roof aswell, which honestly is a slap in the face, and Subtlety wasn’t generally doing amazing either, with securing kills revolving around a single spell that people have WA for. Many higher rated have been sitting since before the ST nerf too. Imagine Arms Warrior’s Warbreaker > Sharpening > Spear > Avatar suddenly netted no defensive but Feint or D-stance or a Deathstrike or simply Drain Life or PW:S. Historically, landing Blind on a healer who’s trinket into CS off-target and KS and kill sequence on maintarget would net some big defensive play, but now it’s no need. It still happens, sure, (and this could be called relying on a mistake by now)but people are catching up on the minor danger in sitting. When you actually don’t have an answer a few late games and you realize it doesn’t come near killing you, there’s no reason to.
Rogues weren’t even close to “ret levels of broken” in SL 3/4…
I CBA going into much detail but sure…
Current DF:
Rets make up 26% of the ladder, 27% if you choose top 1000, 25% top 500. Warriors are behind them by like 4-5% each level.
Shuffle stats they are also like 25%
SL 3 / 4 representation:
Rogue is high in the 2s bracket and in the middle in 3s. The majority of classes representation wise are still around normal - holy priest which EVERYONE complained about have obscene representation.
The problem right now, is rets are literally ruining the ladder. Honestly, AWC was boring as hell with double Outlaw but Rogues did not ruin the ladder like you seem to think whilst its pretty obvious that rets right now, have ruined the ladder play.
Maybe the gearing system also is making it worse but you seem a bit delusional in your hatred to the actual big picture.
Just look at the current activity in the last 24hrs:
if you remove warriors and warlocks, combined every other DPS is played LESS than Ret right now… Show me ANY season with some evidence where that has ever happened…
Healer balance is also totally messed up right now - also partially down to rets
They haven’t received a single nerf with 10.0.7 and when they were S tier in 10.0.5 and are now only B tier based on skill capped. So they say that Assa dropped 2 tiers from one day to another without a single nerf.
You understand that this only shows the activity of a spec in the past 7/14 days, right?
And as long as you don’t show me a screen with very different values for outlaw in SL season 4, your statement before makes no sense as we have no chance to compare.
You remind me of those flat-earthers who did an experiment where they proved that the Earth was not flat, and their reaction was “must be something wrong with the experiment”.
Reminds me why I choose to study physics, the science of truths. It can best be described by Carl Sagan:
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
or lock for that matter