Casual player's thoughts - titanforging is FINE

Community General Discussion
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It actually MADE me want to do professions. Before WoD, I barely touched them. Then WoD came, and all my characters just had to have professions. So, it brought a whole new side to the game for me. I still have memories of spending 3-4 hours flying around gathering the materials to make a 6/6 weapon so I could make 30-40k gold. It was just fun, no RNG, just work :slight_smile:

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So we actually agree on something! :smile:

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I actually do agree with a lot of points you make, and, as I said, you put your opinions forward really well with some good reasoning’s behind them. I know that, for casual players, or players that just don’t enjoy raiding/dungeons, gear progression is still something they enjoy. Technically, I was a non-raider (Except normals) up until BFA. Uldir has been my first ever full clear of an Heroic raid before the next raid tier came out.

And I know, from experience, that I loved to get better gear. I always aimed for higher ilvl, rather than stats, and I know it can be really fun to get that piece of gear, even if it doesn’t titanforge. I still love it now, I just try to aim for the “better” gear for my class now, rather than just random drops.

And so I see both the positive sides and the negative sides to wf/tf. But, as I said earlier, it wouldn’t be as much of a problem if there wasn’t also so many ways to get high end gear. If they just capped the Welfare gear to be just below normal raids, and they capped tf by 15/20 (10 is probably a little too low, not much improvement then), rather than a 340 piece having that slim change of being 395, then there wouldn’t be as much dislike for the whole tf thing.

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The problem with that is that currently the difficulty tiers are seperated by 15 Ilvls so a cap of 15 or 20 would skip a tier, which is bad.

It does not matter for casuals who never want to raid, but for either new players or casuals who maybe want to get into raiding it poses a massive problem.

Normal is already quite a step up compared to LFR and if the cap is 20 it is reasonable to assume that after a while, if we take the current numbers as a baseline, that player has 355 gear or close to it without ever stepping into normal. That itself is not a problem if they do not wish to raid if they do though they have to either start doing Heroic which coming up from LFR is essentially a brick wall, or do Normal which does not give them anything without forging and they already overgear the hell out of Normal so even if they do it they do not really learn a whole lot.

The current learning curve in wow is dreadful and while a lot of armchair raiders say “Oh its so easy”, yes for someone who clears HC normal is a cakewalk but for someone who only ever did LFR or even worse only ever did WQs it is a nightmare.

Linear progression is not only important for just gearing but also learning which is something a lot of people here seem to forget.

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427

Yeah, but I’m not saying that it should be thrown it constantly. Make it so it’s like a 1-2% chance for an item to tf into a +15, and a 0.1-0.5% chance for it to go to a +20. That way, it wouldn’t be dropping as often as it is now, and LFR raiders wouldn’t be out-gearing the next tier content. Not to mention, it’s a better solution than what it is right now, since you can do WQ’s for a 325 ilvl piece of gear and it has the chance to go up +70 xD.

I know the linear progression is also about learning, I’ve been going through it myself. From WoD when I first started doing proper normal raiding, to Legion, where I downed 3-4 Heroic bosses, to now where I’ve finally done my first Heroic clear. That’s the progression I’ve gone through over the past few expansions. Before all of that I only ever did LFR, because my first experience in a normal raid was Firelands, and I was so lost and confused I couldn’t deal with it lmao.

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To be fair Firelands was before LFR, LFR came with Dragonsoul, it is just depressing sometimes to see what some LFR bosses become. I did Uldir last week cause satchels were up for grabs for healers and LFR Zek’voz does not spawn any adds at all. Surging Darkness does 60k damage and Eyebeam does not increase damage when it bounces to another target.

That fight is less than a husk of what it is even on normal and it is a bit sad. If I started and this was my first exposure to a mid tier boss in a raid I would not see the appeal either and never care to try higher difficulty :confused:

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Actually there’s another means of progression, though it’s more of a horizontal kind and one I absolutely love. Pushing my character’s limits. By tweaking gear/enchants (but without upgrades), trying to get more out of my character. Can I kill 2 mobs at once? 3? 10? 50? Can I solo something that normally kills me? This is something I always enjoyed doing, seeing how far I can take the character I play with the limited resources available to me.

Yes, this doesn’t relate to titanforging in any way, just a random thought based on what you posted :slight_smile: My point is, there’s progression that can be made without seeing a number go up or an achievement pop.

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^This exactly

As a casual player I have to say, that titanforging (even warforging) is absolutely not fine…
Because it destroys the gear progression.
You also can’t tell the difference between players by ilvl anymore (normal raiders had normal gear, so if you had full normal gear you would have been invited to normal raids, heroic raiders had heroic gear and so on…) now the item level just rises, and rises and pugs want to have mythic gear for normal raiding, because they can’t tell by item level if someone has experience.

So Titanforging is the reason that players who are not raiding mythic have a hard time getting invited to pugs… (since you need a way higher item level and you also need an unreliable score which tells nothing but how much time someone has to do m+ at the beginning of a week…(since only top 500 get a score, you have to do high keys to get a score if you don’t have time at the beginning of the week, so if you don’t have time at the beginning of a week, you need to put in way more effort than someone who has time, this score system is really unfair…))

Also I really don’t like having a higher item level, than I do content for, which means, I don’t want heroic or mythic gear, if I only do normal, it is not fair…

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+20 would be the maximum cap. Do you realize how rare it is to happen?
So rare that it’s quite neglible. Mostly (but still rare) you would see +10, then in much rarer cases +15 and in very very very very very very very very very very very rare cases you would see +20’s. So it really shouldn’t matter at all.

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This is basically what I said, except I used numbers rather than repeating the same word over and over :P. But, still the same! xD

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I like repeating words! :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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Well good for you, but that’s not how everyone feels. The game isn’t made for you specifically.

No. This is due to elitism and people wanting it ‘as easy as possible’ even when doing ‘the most difficult content in the game’.
Except for the tiniest fraction of the playerbase, the elite world first type mythic raiding guilds, most people don’t enjoy wiping. They don’t want to waste their time on attempts all evening long. So of course they will pick people who they think they will have the best chance with. This was happening WAY before TF even existed. So again, blaming TF for something is has nothing to do with. As per usual.

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435

In what alternate reality did raider .io happen way before titanforging?

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Blizzard have struggled for the longest time when it comes to professions. They used to be an absolute necessity (wrath and cata) where every raider needed max level professions for the added stat bonuses. Now, most of them are completely worthless. Blizzard have never managed to find a good middle ground, which is a huge shame.

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Vanilla and tbc. Professions created a ton of useful stuff and most of the things they made could be traded. They were key to the economy, but you could absolutely do all of the content without any profession at all (or even better only gathering professions).

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This may have happend in some cases, but I was playing before titanforging, and I never had problems getting into pugs for the difficulty I wanted to do and I had the item level for, which means, I had normal gear, I got invited to normal raids, because players could tell, that I had the gear and probably the experience (I didn’t have the experience or the normal gear yet, but that didn’t matter to my first pug group, after I got all the normal gear, I didn’t have any problems with pugs) to do normal, but with titanforging this is not possible, so the players want mythic gear for a normal run, I got into my first guild on eredar by pugging…

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So why did they change it in wrath?

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I’ve been asking myself that since wrath :slight_smile: For some reason they felt compelled to give bonuses for having professions - on top of what the professions themselves made (in trading value). Maybe they wanted more people to pick them up? Blizzard’s approach to “we want players to try doing x more” is “give something that only x provides”.

But that’s a guess, I honestly don’t know.

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they should have made sure that the item would atleast not overlap the base item level of the nex tier… so your 355 would never titanforge in a 370-375 item, you’ll have to do heroic for that and 370 would not be able to t-forge into a 385 item because you’ll have to do mythic for that.

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guys this is just a quote from my manifesto no how i belive to fix the titanforging problem, but the post is so long im sure nobody reads it anyway so ill just leave the small fraction here: