There’s 4, not 5. Neck, Shoulders, Chest, Head. So, 16 slots where you can get gear, 12 of which you can get upgrades for. Seems like plenty of space for advancement there. If you were ONLY able to get 340 gear and the chance at 350 through wf/tf, you’d have another 10+ slots that you could eventually get wf/tf with, causing your advancement that you’re wanting.
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You’ve been saying ‘this is how it should be’. That’s basically the same as telling people to play the way you think it should be played. Because doing it any other way is then no longer a viable option.
So no, you haven’t directly said ‘play it this way’ but you might as well have.
Also; on most occassions where I used the terms toxic or elitist I was not referring to you as a person, but to a certain type of player which I have described in another post of mine.
And yes, I honestly do think people who play in the way I described are being harmful to themselves and others. I truly do.
It’s not good to obsess over a game, go to extreme lengths to achieve a basically unatainable goal. Do you honestly disagree with me on this point?
Again; I’m not saying the above is you. I’m describing a certain kind of player, which most certainly exists. And it’s not the only ‘bad’ kind of player, of course not, but it’s the only one that is related to the topic at hand.
WHat are you exatly aiming at? Titanforging is the problem, not because its titanforging, but because it is not something better to be ?!?!?!
In case i need to explain this to everyone making posts like you do, i opened a whole thread about it so i can reffer to it so you can understand what is really wrong with it…
here you go some toiletlitterature for you, to understand how the titanforging is the rot of the gearing system for everyone, not only me:
-The thing about titanforge
-The Scrapper Changes are good, could be so much more
-https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17624533226#1
-How to fix the gearing problem (NOT AZERITE)
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Weapon also cannot TF.
No. If I had 340 gear, I’d basically have almost no progression after getting that 340. 10 ilvls are not worth the trouble. It’s not meaningful in the slightest.
If you’re so worried about getting less TF in mythic, fine… get +20 or +25 too. I don’t care. Get +1000. I don’t care what you get in mythic, because I don’t go there and I’m not threatened or bothered by what other players do or get.
As long as EVERY player in the game, no matter what content they like, has a way to have meaningful progression, it’s all good with me. Get your gold covered chest piece with +100 ilvls and 5 sockets. All fine.
This is where you’ve twisted my words. Good job. When I say “This is how it should be”, I mean, this is how an MMORPG should be. There should be gear progression, difficulty progression and other things players can progress through. Right now, there is no such thing as gear progression, due to all the hand-outs. This doesn’t stop you playing the things you want too. How does you only being 340 ilvl rather than 362 ilvl stop you from doing the content you enjoy? Please tell me.
I’m one of those “types of players” you’re talking about. The ones that Sim their characters, aim for the best gear they can get, better their rotations. Spend hours on target dummies to perfect their rotation, work to become better at the game. THESE are the things that I enjoy doing in this game, because it allows me to get better and progress though the difficulties.
Yes, I do. Because not once has any one of us said we “obsess” over it. We’ve said we strive for it and work for it, because it’s how WE enjoy the game. I agree that being obsessed with games isn’t healthy, but what you’re doing is labelling the wrong group of people. You’re labelling people who enjoy finding challenges in games and work towards beating them by improving their play-style and other things.
Would you also label the PSN and Xbox players who 100% games? Or those who do speedruns? Or those who spend 10+ hours a day to get into tourneys? Or those who spend 5+ hours a day streaming the games. Would you say these are obsessed players? Because I wouldn’t.
An obsession to a game is if people don’t eat, sleep, barely ever go out (Unless you struggle to do this anyway), who cause themselves physical and emotional harm because of a game. THAT is an obsession. This has nothing to do with people simming characters, or bettering themselves constantly, because this can be done without obsessing over it.
I spend maybe 2-3 hours a day (Sometimes longer, but that’s only usually when I raid) online, and most of the time spent is me trying to get the better gear I need, get my neck up, get my reps up, work on my rotation, work on other things. This isn’t me obsessing over the game, this is me working through my kinks and finding out how to get better.
yo tahra since you seem really passionate about the game yet you fail to understand why everybody is so heated up replying to you in this manner would you mind joining discord and discuss that? would be fun to hear you opionion and not only read it, same goes for everyone else in here! You up for that shortbolts?
But they can still WF. So, if you only have a 340 weapon, it can go to 345, not to mention the sockets on everything.
You have no progression now at 362. You’ve MAJORLY over-geared the content that you’re doing. There is no more progression for you till the ilvl’s go up when the new raid comes up. How is it now meaningful, when after getting more than 345-350 ilvl, the content you are doing becomes almost meaningless, because you’ve out-geared it?
This is not what I’m worried about. I’m worried about the fact that someone who plays like you has 1 ilvl less than someone who plays like me. Ilvl is so meaningless in this game now, they might as well remove it. This is why 3rd party websites get’s used for everything instead, because what Blizzard has done is killed the reason for aiming for high ilvl, because any average Joe can hit high ilvl now.
And they do! Pet battles can progress their pet collection. Mount farmers can build up their farm collection Achievement hunters can aim for LOADS of achievements. People who run IE’s can build on coins for the vendor coming in 8.1, plus keep working for the things that drop from there. All of this does not require high gear! The ONLY things in this game that requires higher gear, is raiding and dungeons. That’s it.
You were able to go complete that WQ at 300 ilvl, why do you now need 360 to go and do the same thing?
Everything in this game has it’s own style of progression. Gear progression has ALWAYS been apart of raiding/dungeons/PvP. If you don’t do any of these, then you don’t need to worry about progressing your gear. You’ll get there eventually anyway, so you can work on progressing other things in the game.
If you enjoy progressing your gear, you should try to see if you can find some enjoyment out of raiding or dungeon running. Finding a nice guild, some friends, a nice community, these “might” help you enjoy that content more. But, gear progression is not needed in any other aspects of the game, after a certain ilvl (So, as I said, 340/350 for now).
I tried to be polite and I see by your comment how much arrogant you are that you think how only your view of the game here is correct , when in fact you don’t have any credentials whatsoever to speak in the way you do. You aren’t the game dev, you don’t work for Blizzard , you aren’t aware of all the different groups of people which play this game and in the end you don’t have the right to speak in the name of the community as a whole. And I just don’t want to repeat again here what I posted before for the ones like you which are lazy to read previous comments.
it seems the one not reading is actually you. i dont want to change the way pple play the game, only for the ones likeminded with me… this is what you dont get…
i dont post my threads herer to say i know what the game is about, i want you to read and join the discussion and tell me why my ideas are wrong and what exactly is wrong about them. you dont seem to be interested in thats so i wont bother you anymore sir, what a pity
Oh it’s still around. After all, that’s why the souls games are still really really popular after all these years. On Steam alone, Dark Souls 3 has around 7000 active players every day, and yet it came out in 2016. That may not seem like a lot but for a primarily single player game that is over 2 years old, that is an impressive feat. It proves that players do like a challenge, as long as that challenge is fair.
Giving gladiator mounts to the top 0.1% is elitist (justifiably imo but that’s a different story). Giving better rewards to those that tackle group content and harder challenges isn’t elitist, it’s reasonable. Point of an MMO is to play with other people, and having tougher challenges requires better tools. I’m not asking you to raid, but better gear makes solo content faster. Whereas it makes harder content possible.
That’s actually a valid point. Vanilla and tbc were dead games, nobody played them. It wasn’t until pandaria and thunderforging that the game started picking up some players. Or do I misremember?
Weren’t you done with talking about the topic?
Come back and tell us about your mantras after trying to apply to some mythic guilds with no TF gear against others with it. Until then, please find another parking spot for that oversized offroad car of yours.
While I dislike the system, I’m personally pretty indifferent. I get irritated by the hypocrisy of people telling others they don’t “need” it, while defending their own “not need but nice to have” agenda to death. In caps.
Advance while doing the same thing for 30 hours a week, for an entire expansion?
That’s a bit hard. Your character advances by doing more difficult content, something you explicitly say you hate. Meanwhile, thank you Shortbolts for that quote.
25 ilevs is mere upgrade to you? Dude, it’s literally 5 levels less than the difference between normal and mythic raids. That is NOT a mere upgrade, that is skipping one difficulty altogether and questionably another one from itemisation making up for 5 ilevs.
Yeah, good thing you don’t run the mental institutions, or we’d be all put in cages, so we don’t “harm ourselves and the others”.
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Here is why, putting in an effort should be rewarding and not relying on chance.
I understand the need to offer a easy way for people to gear up for M+ and Normal RAID, but the path should be linear not so that you can end up in better gear doing LFR and counting on Titanforging.
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you cannot blame people for obvious flaws in game design they have in recent years.
they tried constant progression with AP and failed horrbly both in legion and even worse in BfA .
its time to stop failed experiemtns and bring back badge gear and gear upgrades - it worked well in both MoP and WoD . there was no need to reinvent the wheel . because i highly doubt that anyone posting in his thread is deminading to give people gear equal to mythis raiding.
but giveing people ways to work towards 1 piece of hc qualiy loot every 2nd week was option that worked wonders for years - there was no reason to take it out of game in first place
Bring back the old old system. If you put the effort in the right (what mmo has been about for years) place you will get gear. Some badge vendor for those really unluck ones.
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We disagree on most things in this thread, but this is a sentiment I can 100% endorse!
One problem inherent to WoW is that progression is one-dimensional - and narrowing.
“Progression” means getting more powerful. It’s a simple linear function.
There once were some other, weaker but still interesting, forms of progression. But Professions were removed somewhere between WoD and Legion. Gold was removed with the Token.
Collections and cosmetics are the only remaining outlets other than inching up the power scale, and they have limited appeal.
So power is mostly all we can aim for.
That being so, Blizzard need to provide power growth trajectories for everyone from World 100 guilds and Gladiators to the rest of us.
They arrange the game in patches now. So when a patch hits, they provide an Express route to get geared solo quickly, enough to get you into the door of a Normal raid. And there they leave you. They do this for raiders, so that returners and alts can join the roster in time for the opening. The problem with this Express route is that it may be too short and not meaningful enough for non-raiders.
For example, I have an alt I dinged in the last three days of a Warfront. I scrambled to 320, and then spent about 8 hours over two days chain queueing. (It wasn’t too bad. Warfronts are much more interesting in tank spec.) At the end of that, I had 340+ everywhere but rings. I was done. Officially qualified to walk into Uldir Normal. Whether a group would take me is another question, but I had the expected ilevel. And there endeth the gearing/power curve for anyone who doesn’t raid or grind M+. In three days. That has to be bad design. If I didn’t do more dungeons or raids, I was finished my gearing trajectory for the four-month patch in less than a week.
(And BTW, does anyone know why Blizzard changed their update cycle this time round? Legion had the famous 77-day patch cycle that was highly praised, and credited with much of the popularity of Legion. Why are they slower this time? Was it a deliberate decision? Have they made a comment on it somewhere?)
Thinking of TF as a progression mechanism from the soft cap just seems wrong to me. I could get behind other ways hardcore casuals could build their power, but repeatedly pulling the lever on a slot machine just doesn’t sit right.
However, I would be very happy with another method of slow gearing, with the player actually aiming in a specific direction and choosing what to target rather than rolling dice.
I think TF fails casuals hard. For them, it’s a lazy way for Blizzard to avoid designing a worthy gearing curve.
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Don’t bother mate, you know what they say about arguing with certain people: they will drag you to their level and then beat you with experience. 
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Agreed. I would love to be able to work for gear (I can’t wait for 8.1, I’ll be doing more/higher M+'s to get the higher Azerite gear) and I loved how professions were useful until the end of WoD (Wans’t around for the end of MoP, Ieft at the start). I loved being able to make/work for the items to upgrade gear. I felt accomplished when I had done it.
This is an interesting read. My personal view on the whole WF/TF thing is that I don’t mind if they leave it in or take it out.
For me personally it is helpful because as a casual player player it means my iLevel gets pushed up a little bit so when I group with friends that do harder content they don’t have to drop as low down in the content and they still have a small chance that they might get something from it. But if the system was not there it would not stop us grouping because gear is not the reason why we group.
I think the points made by people on the bleeding edge of content are valid on the amount of RNG involved. I agree it needs to be addressed in some way. My personal preference would be some kind of token or resource that is dropped in similar content to the item and that can only be used on items from that content to upgrade it. So if you invest enough time you will get there. How much time that should be is for others to decide.
At then end of the day I think we need to be a little less worried about what those next to us are doing and remember that the game is meant to be fun. What makes it fun will be different for different people and we should all respect that.
My final thoughts is that the content and the rewards for that content is set by the makers of the game. As long as you have played within the rules of the game then you have earned whatever items / achievements you have got. If you personally feel that some elements are rewarding to highly then you are entitled to that view. However you have the same opportunities to use those elements to your advantage just the same as everyone else so you are not being disadvantaged by them.
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Thank you for a well argumented post. I actually agree with almost everything you said.
I did too. It felt like my engineering was actually good for something. I crafted a gun and worked towards upgrading it to the absolute maximum. I loved that.
Aye this is a big problem with BfA. The only worthwhile upgrades I can get in the content I like is now the 370 gear from the once-per-3-weeks-or-so Warfront quest and from the worldboss in Arathi. All other gear I can earn is simply not interesting anymore (because I don’t actually chase TF; I don’t do WQs with a 325 ring as a reward just in the hopes of it proccing to something high).
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