Cat Food - Feral Suggestions!

If you don’t feel like reading everything I’ll just post shorter to read “runes” in the middle and at the end there are some various ideas. So if you wanna read my reasoning you can read the entire post or just get the basics by reading the “runes” part.

Intro and Reasonings

Feral druids are in a weird spot at the moment. I personally think their damage is kinda fine. But with the way every class works right now with insane rune abilities we are somewhat lagging behind. I think the main culprit for this is our rune Savage Roar. It is an ability that needs to be used to even consider doing ANY reasonable damage. It is a mandatory rune and ability. That is the first issue with it. The second is that we have to spend way too many Combo Points on it which invalidates most other finishers. That these finishers are only doing lukewarm damage is another issue but I think the Savage Roar issue needs to be solved first. What does it matter how much/little damage Rip and Ferocious Bite does if we barely get to use them? In a Gnomeregan run I can count the number of FB I get to use on one hand. And when I use it it most often does less damage than a Mangle or Shred…

Savage Roar
So first and foremost something needs to be done about Savage Roar. I suggest turning it into a passive or semi-passive.

It could just be a flat +30% damage while in cat form. Or have a short ramp-up time where your attacks increase damage done by 5% for 30 seconds up to 6 stacks (30%). With one auto-attack per second and abilities it should reach 30% in roughly 4 seconds. Other classes have gotten similar runes (both passive and with a sort of ramp-up) so this isn’t some far-out-there idea.

30% extra damage passively sounds super OP but let’s be honest here, it only brings Feral cats up to a baseline level where many other dps specs already were before SoD.
It is a pretty dull rune in the sense that it doesn’t “add” anything to the spec.

So my real suggestion is to bake the effect into a passive effect on our Wild Strikes rune instead. Crazy right?!? But bear with me. Pun intended. :slight_smile:

Wild Strikes and Survival of the Fittest
Wild Strikes is another of those mandatory runes to use. Rather than having two mandatory runes we now get one. That opens up the leg slot for something more fun and engaging. Like a new finisher. Something that interacts with our bleeds, perhaps?

I dislike saying “that class has this so we should also get this.” But we can use Hunters as an example of how Wild Strikes has a major design flaw. Hunters get 10% extra stats on their Heart of the Lion rune along with the raid-wide buff. It has a personal effect along with the raid effect so that it shouldn’t feel too bad when they’re forced to run it in a raid/party over any other rune. And if there are two Ferals in the group only one needs to use Wild Strikes, but at the same time there is nothing else to use so one of the Ferals gain 0 from their Chest rune.
HotL is a raid-wide effect and Wild Strikes is party-wide so they aren’t exactly similar but the principle holds.

Wild Strikes also have the issue of being mandatory for bear tanks and that is also an issue that I think needs to be solved. It will be partially solved when we go to 20+ raids cause right now there just isn’t room or need for more than one Feral druid in a 10-man raid. But that “solution” is a pretty awkward one and I think most bears will be forced to run Wild Strikes either way. And let’s be frank, the extra damage, threat and rage they gain from the extra attacks is really really useful.

That is a harder nut to crack and not really within the scope of this post as this focuses more on cats. A small suggestion to make Survival of the Fittest more attractive would be to give it a party-wide effect of say 5% less damage taken. So in encounters where there is a lot of damage the bear can forgo the extra damage for the group to opt for more survivability. It is by no means a perfect solution and might very well end up being useless. Or have the rune also provide a new ability that is like a Power Word: Barrier or Divine Sacrifice type thing.
Wild Strike/Windfury I think needs to be toned down in general. It should not be what makes or breaks melee classes. Maybe have it proc from just white attacks? No Hamstring/Wing Clip spam for WF procs. But that is also beyond the scope of this post. Just food for thought.

PvP
A side-effect of putting the Savage Roar effect on Wild Strikes would be the inability to pick up SotF (some baseline survivability as cats are rather squishy) for PvP and get the +30% damage. But you’d also get the choice of the interrupt Skull Bash or the new finisher for PvP. You want the damage or the interrupt. Even if I think that the interrupt shouldn’t be a rune when it competes so heavily with damage in PvE (same with paladin). A worse Skull Bash baseline and the rune instead improves it somehow (adding a stun, slow, damage, locking out ALL casting, increased duration, etc)?

I think this would be a good and interesting change! It would allow you to choose between going for a glass cannon build that stalks the outskirts of combat to assassinate a high-priority target or for a rough and tumble fighter in the thick of it (maybe opens in cat, blows their energy and then switches to bear) that allows the group to survive longer. You can still choose between King of the Jungle or Survival Instinct on the feet slot for more damage or survivability.

Runes

  • Chest - Wild Strikes

Gain the Wild Strikes effect.
Increases all damage done by 30% while in Cat Form.

  • Chest - Survival of the Fittest

Reduces damage taken by 10% and chance of getting crit by physical attacks by 6%. An additional 10% damage reduction while in Bear/Dire Bear form.
All party members take 5% less damage.

  • Leg - Rip and Tear (replacement for Savage Roar)

New finisher and should be treated as a rune replacement for Ferocious Bite.
This ability benefits from and triggers all effects associated with Ferocious Bite.

Different variations, just throwing them out there good or bad:

  1. You tear into the open wounds of your target instantly dealing X Bleed damage per CP. Each Bleed effect you’ve got on your target increases the damage by 10%.

Note: simple and clean but a bit dull and uninspired. Rake, Rip and even Pounce would increase the damage. Yes it deals BLEED damage and thus ignores armor and is improved by Mangle. Probably a bit overboard and makes Mangle mandatory. But it would also be unique (I think) and give this and the Mangle runes some synergy.

  1. Deals X Bleed damage per CP. Each CP deals additional damage equal to 20% of one tick of damage from all your bleeds on the target.

Note: so at 5 CP you would do additional damage equal to a full tick of Rake and Rip. A more complex version of 1 and I think worse and confusing. But hey, writing down everything that comes to mind.

  1. Deals X Bleed damage per CP. Has a 20% chance per CP spent of increasing the duration of your bleeds on the target by 2 ticks.

Note: without needing to spend CPs on Savage Roar you should be able to have Rip and Rake up on your target when you use this new finisher to get the two extra ticks. This would also increase the value and damage/per energy spent of Rip and Rake. A major downside of this is complexity for complexities sake…

  1. Deals X Bleed damage per CP and spreads your Rake bleed to all nearby enemies at its full duration.

Note: If this would spread Rake at full duration even at 1 CP it could be kinda sweet and somewhat unique. Rake does kinda mediocre damage so no insane AoE. Could add in a splash damage that increases with CPs spent but it should NOT become burst AoE. Say each CP spent deals 30% of the up-front damage of a Rake. It is a sustained AoE ability, not for burst. Keep in mind that the additional targets won’t have Mangles +30% bleed damage unless the feral actively spreads that which costs energy and CPs built are lost when switching targets.

  1. Deals X Bleed damage per CP and spreads your Rake and Rip bleeds to up to two nearby enemies.

Note: a potentially more powerful version of number 4 but requires more set up. Sustained cleave rather than burst or AoE. Keep in mind that the additional targets won’t have Mangles +30% bleed damage unless the feral actively spreads that which costs energy and CPs built are lost when switching targets.
Set up with great rewards!

My favourites are probalby 1 and 5.

Finishing thoughts:

It would be really nice if more druid runes had versions for various forms in them. Like Sunfire which has a caster version and a Feral version. Hybrids are in a tough spot of getting only a single rune for each role so there are no choices while classes with fewer roles have more variations. Even if their runes are poorly balanced and one is the clear winner they still have the potential. An example would be the Wild Growth which could have a Feral version. You’d have to give up Mangle (and with that a lot of damage) but gain survivability and the “support” function. How powerful it would be, cost, scaling, etc can be discussed. Just an example. Or Lacerate could get a cat version with either an active ability or just something as simple as it increases all your bleed damage in cat form by X%. It might not be able to compete against Mangles damage and group support in any way but it would be cool to not be 100% locked into a specific set of runes.

Heck, Living Seed could get an effect where your melee crits sprout Living Seeds on friendly targets for X healing. No one will probably ever take it over Wild Strikes but hey, it’s there and could be used in some fun and unique playstyle with the Feral Wild Growth. A feral support healer? haha

And as I said, this goes for all classes that have earmarked runes for a specific spec like this.

Combo Points!
CPs should not be removed when switching targets. This is just horrible design. At the very least they should stay on your target until you use a CP builder on another target. So you can switch target and at least do auto-attacks and then switch back. Or let us build CPs on multiple targets. This goes for rogues as well…

Other various ideas:

New ability or rune - Lick Your Wounds
15-20s cd.
You immediately enter prowl and start licking your wounds, regaining 25% of your health over 6 seconds or until you exit prowl. While you’re licking your wounds, damage over time effects won’t take you out of prowl but they still deal damage. For 30 seconds you deal 25% less damage, stacking up to 3 times.
Note: a more pvp oriented ability. You trade future damage for 1-3 “free” ticks of your bleeds and some health (roughly 500 with decent gear). This can be used multiple times to reset combat but with a harsher and harsher penalty.
Fits in a theme of a predator letting their prey bleed out while they patiently wait. A predator that weaves in and out. Feral druids got Maim in later expansions (stun finisher) but to mix it up I figured a more interesting path to take would be this bleed them out approach.
The heal might sound strong but keep in mind that there are a lot of stuff that breaks stealth besides DoT damage.

Rune - Smell of Blood
Each time you deal Bleed damage, you gain 3 Energy or 3 Rage.
Note: With Rake and Rip up this would generate ~24 energy over 10 seconds. A passive way of further increasing the value of our Bleeds (including Lacerate) without upping the damage. Heck a bear could open from Cat form with Pounce and a quick Rake and then go into bear for some extra rage while those DoTs tick. They could even weave in a quick powershift+Rake in the middle of a fight if they wish.

Skill Book - Track Humanoid
Your track humanoid ability now works in Bear form and is no longer canceled when you exit Cat/Bear form but is rather suppressed until you reenter Cat/Bear.
Note: just a QoL thing. It is annoying to reapply it every time you exit/enter Cat form.

Starsurge rebalancing
Up the CD to 8 seconds but increase the damage by 30-40%. Give it back some of its umph while not making it overbearing in PvP.

3 Likes

A breath of fresh air between all those toxic posts around here.
Some actually good ideas which could maybe make the devs think for a bit. Some are probably a bit overtuned, but I would die for some minor cleave damage without going bear and not having to keep up savage roar all the time.

2 Likes

I’d like to disagree with you for the simplest of reasons. I’m talking about PvE, since PvP is even more complicated:

I don’t know where they want to go with feral cats, but as of now we have way too many abilities and rotation complexity in comparison to other classes and to what classic usually is. Mind that I don’t really care, my main is a rogue sub in retail, I’m used to complex rotation.
Fact is, if everyone had a somewhat complex rotation, it would be fair. But at the moment, most of the other classes have a typical wow classic easy rotation. I think you already know what I mean by that, but let me do some examples for other people: locks spam incinerate, some chaos bolt and immolate; mages spam scorch, some fireball, a living bomb if you want and then free pyroblast.
On the other part, we as feral druids must:

  • Mangle the target
  • Rake
  • Savage roar always up
  • Berserk
  • Shred ONLY BEHIND THE TARGET OR IT DOESN’T HIT
  • Tiger’s Fury
  • Faerie Fire always up to help the melee
  • Rip
  • Thank god Ferocious Bite doesn’t do damage or else we’d have to use it
  • Powershift
  • Items like the helm and crowd pummeler, + trinkets

That isn’t fair at all. In your average raid feral druids cast 20% more spells than any other class and they have no return for it. By average I mean raid where bosses don’t last 15 seconds only. This feels more like a retail rotation than a classic one. I don’t need more active abilities, but I fear we still have 2 phases with runes ahead of us and they’ll add like 4 more active abilities to our rotation.

1 Like

Some of the best Druids doesn’t Shapeshift to do dmg.

Shapeshift only makes sense when you don’t make mistakes otherwise stay in Cat give the 3% crit and still be good in dmg.

In best case Szenario you can Shapeshift 4 Times before you are Oom.

Feral feel clunky and slow at all

1 Like

Thank you Skogakatt. I get a lot of enjoyment out of thinking up design stuff for WoW and other things :slight_smile:
Numbers will of course need to be tested and balanced but I think I’ve hit decent ballpark for everything. What do you think is overtuned? I love discussing things like this and turn it inside and out from all angles.

Hey Verdon.

I’m not entirely sure I understand what you’re disagreeing with. But I think you’re saying that these suggestions would add complexity without a reason or reward? Please correct me if I’m wrong!
My favourite rotation in the game so far has been Sub Rogue in WoD. I loved it!

A lot of the things you listed I wouldn’t add in the complexity column but rather maintanance. Mangle, Savage Roar, Fearie Fire being the biggest ones. They are rather easy to keep track of and keep up and have long durations. Berserk is once every three minutes and is a rather simple ability in its execution. And Shred only working from behind is more of an annoyance at times rather than complexity. But that is an annoyance that I kinda like and am fine with.

Tiger’s Fury is proabably the most complex part of our rotation at the moment.
I don’t powershift at the moment but will probably start doing it at lvl 50 and 60 when we can get more talents and the raids are hopefully harder. At the moment 31 points in the feral tree works just fine. Powershifting will add more complexity. But I think for most players you’ll be fine in all phases without it. It is an interesting mechanic to squeeze out every bit of damage from ferals though!

I think that my suggestions would decrease the complexity (except version 2 and 3 of my Ferocious Bite replacement rune which I don’t really like myself when rethinking them). We’d remove the need to track Savage Roar and have a simpler set of finishers; direct damage and a DoT.
In a nutshell: Rip on the target? Yes, then FB. No, use Rip.
Pretty simple choice but there’s room for being good and skillfull. You need to think somewhat ahead and plan your spending but if you “mess” up your dps ain’t in the toilet.

I hope they don’t add many more buttons but rather passives that enhances current abilities/runes and the gameplay. Like something to increase energy regen or something that makes reso spells usuable in cat/bear and so forth.

I’d love to hear your opinions on what you disagree with!

PS I don’t know how to reply and qoute several people in the same reply. Anyone wanna tell me? :slight_smile:

Its not that I think your suggestions are bad, and I agree with the issues - but I just dont have faith in Blizzard to be able to reinvent the spec by now. They have failed so miserably in SOD so far, all faith is gone.

I believe they should just:

  • Make either Savage Roar or Skull Bash baseline. Also remove feral charge CD sharing from Skull Bash. Rogues have shadowstep and ranged kidney, give me a break feral cant have a damn interrupt?
  • Buff ferocious bite. Rend and tear talent effect could be a simple idea to increase dmg.
  • Buff bleeds. Damage, not duration. Would prefer Primal Gore from WOTLK, aka make bleeds crit.
  • Add the missing part of KOTJ rune to fix all other issues. (the 60% shapeshifting mana cost).

What I meant was that I don’t completely agree with you. Druids only need passives (and an AoE) at the moment in my opinion. And of course, combo point on your character and not your mob would be the icing on the cake, but that’s dreaming since it doesn’t pertain the classic spirit. But if we strictly speak about classic spirit, then why is the feral druid so complex?

What I don’t agree, fore example:

  • Wild strikes. Poor feral druids find a place in pugs just because this rune. You just can’t take the party buff from them. Don’t only think about yourself, with your guild, with your good parse. Think about every druid.
  • Rip and Tear. As I said, you’re adding complexity even if you’re putting Savage Roar out of the way. And it is a FULL bleed damage rune (with spreads, for example your 5th suggestion). We don’t need more bleed. Fights are somewhat brief, and aoe pull are even shorter, adding bleed complexity would do nothing, since a lot of times you won’t even put bleeds on enemies because their duration. The 5th suggestion, especially, would be useless: it would mean that in an aoe pull (I’m not counting raid bosses, since aoe on raid bosses is extremely rare) you need to put rip, rake, use your finisher, and somewhat hope that the pull isn’t ended already.

What I do agree with (somewhat):

  • Smell of blood. Simple passive that helps with energy regen. Nice and neat. As I said, we need simple passives. But 24 energy in 10 seconds is negligible and it would make powershift literal HELL. And a lot of ticks will be eaten by our powershift.

It’s unlikely that in the next 2 phases we get 0 active abilities in the form of runes, and we’re already overwhelmed as it is. Every ability I listed is good for a feral druid. Some people decide not to shapeshift, rip or rake, depending on the fight (I specificied to not take into account fights that last 20 seconds), but nonetheless they should be used in a perfect setup. While most of the other classes just use like 4 abilities without having to take into account energy tick, refresh on your buffs, etc. etc. Pretty much what I wrote in the other post.

Either every class is simple, as in the spirit of classic wow, or every class must have a somewhat level of difficulty added to them. At the moment, feral druids casts 20% more spells than any other class in raid (look at the average logs, again, not fights that last 20 seconds) and that’s not fair at all. Especially, if there’s no return. It feels like I’m playing my feral druid or my sub rogue in retail without any QoL added to them at this point, with an incredibly slow energy regen

Edit: I already wrote it, but I wanted to be clear. It’s not like I don’t like complex rotations, I main a rogue sub on retail, I would be a fool. It’s just that we’re the only spec THAT complex on classic, without actual return on our damage, and that’s not fair.

Just give me wotlk version of feral, and I will be happy.

1 Like

Is this how you disorient ppl with the humongous wall of text when it’s quite simple to see that you want broken op stuff.
Disregarding the whole mumbo jambo around savage roar, because it’s there, it’s a flat dmg increase you need to spend cp on, you press it you got it, HERE’S ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE TO IT: they could have not added it in the game in the first place! better then?! would you be happier?

NO! been there done that! rogues that never bothered to play their class when they got recuperate rings any bell?!

Aaaaah there we go! Oomph you say? Meanwhile boomkins farming thousands of coins in stv in best caster cleave comps.

Just because we have phases with each of them being end game at some point doesn’t mean the game was or is balanced at each of these lvl 25, 40 or 50.
Some specs come online when you have all the points to spent at lvl 60, feral is one of them.
We got mangle! we got runes now that turn tiger’s fury in a better thistle tea! we got berserk! Be happy!
At lvl 60 datamined improved barkskin helps against physical dmg!
If there would be smth i wish they added would have been predatory strikes from wotlk and that’s it! It would turn feral cat into a powerhouse at lvl 60 at least in pvp.

Verdon
Wild strikes. Poor feral druids find a place in pugs just because this rune. You just can’t take the party buff from them. Don’t only think about yourself, with your guild, with your good parse. Think about every druid.

I think you’ve misread something. I never said to remove Wild Strikes. I suggested buffing that rune and to improve the design of our runes in general.
This is for all druids and not for some parses. I don’t even think anyone in my relaxed guild group even logs.

Verdon
Rip and Tear. As I said, you’re adding complexity even if you’re putting Savage Roar out of the way. And it is a FULL bleed damage rune (with spreads, for example your 5th suggestion). We don’t need more bleed. Fights are somewhat brief, and aoe pull are even shorter, adding bleed complexity would do nothing, since a lot of times you won’t even put bleeds on enemies because their duration. The 5th suggestion, especially, would be useless: it would mean that in an aoe pull (I’m not counting raid bosses, since aoe on raid bosses is extremely rare) you need to put rip, rake, use your finisher, and somewhat hope that the pull isn’t ended already.

I disagree with you on this. I think it will be easier with a more streamlined aproach to our finishers. Right now Savage Roar complicates it by essentially having a third finisher. SR, Rip and FB. Even if FB does very poor damage it still complicates matters trying to get one in every now and then. By getting rid of the maintanance buff SR and replacing FB with a clearly better alternative the complexity would reduce and the choice on what you spend your CPs on is fairly easy but with some room for skill.
About Rip and Tear. That isn’t another Bleed DoT. It is instant Bleed damage. Reason for that would be to ignore armor. But it would also be buffed by Mangle which in turn would probably be a bad move. It would have to do bad damage and then mangle would have to prop it up. So not a good feeling. We can agree on that. :slight_smile:
As for the Rake/Rip spread. 5 is the worst version I agree. As I noted I just wrote down all versions I could think of, good or bad.
I’m not a fan of everyone having burst AoE abilities. So spreading Rake around would give the cat some AoE without it going overboard. It is a simple way of giving some AoE without actually adding a new button (SR removed and FB replaced so a net -1 button).
I ain’t part of some minmaxing speedrunning community that bursts everything down in 3 seconds so in a “normal” group you can probably get the full 9 seconds of rake on most trash. Setting it up takes 3 seconds (rake+finisher and that spreads rake), then you can do your normal thing to the priority target as usual.

My favourite is #1 though as it is a simple instant damage single target finisher and get AoE or Cleave through some other ability/passive.

Kaimol
Is this how you disorient ppl with the humongous wall of text when it’s quite simple to see that you want broken op stuff.
Disregarding the whole mumbo jambo around savage roar, because it’s there, it’s a flat dmg increase you need to spend cp on, you press it you got it, HERE’S ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE TO IT: they could have not added it in the game in the first place! better then?! would you be happier?

Sorry for trying to put down reasonings and ideas rather than just “buff X or nerf Y for no better reason that I say so” that I’ve seen so much of on these forums. I think its important to articulate your ideas and write down your thought process.
I did write at the top that you could just skip to the “Runes” part for the shorter version. :slight_smile:

SR is the only thing at the moment that keeps Feral cats afloat. But it is a crutch. I’m advocating for it to be improved. I’m saying it is poorly designed in its current state. In P1 it kinda worked as a finisher cause we only had Rip back then (which with SR we barely had the CP to use).

What is it that you find so broken and OP? All numbers can of course be adjusted and balanced. The only real damage buff here is a new finisher that can be tuned to just be 10% above spending the energy on another Shred and having the CPs above 5 wasted.
My goal isn’t to make a class OP or broken. The opposite, I’d rather be in the middle but have a class that is fun and engaging

Lick Your Wounds was just a quick thingie that popped into my head. Just putting ideas out there. Same with Starsurge, I don’t know how to fix that I just find the button to be kinda sad to press the few times I respec and try Boomkin out.
Two things I wrote down here rather than make a whole new thread.

And I agree with you on the future. Some classes will pop earlier than others and Feral will be getting more at lvl 60.
But we don’t know what’s in store. ALL of those datamined runes could make it into the game or NONE. This is a huge problem with the dev team. Their lack of comunication. For example Shadow Priests who screamed and yelled all P1 only to be met with silence. The devs knew what was coming down the pipeline and how well they’d perform in P2. They should’ve just said “Hey guys relax, SP is one of those specs that will come alive later.” But since they won’t inform us of anything or give a general idea of what they envision for a class/spec we have to work with the information we have now.

FB won’t become a magicly better button to press at lvl 60, it’ll still be trash. With a higher CP generation we’d just sit at 5 CPs using more Shreds with nothing worthwile to spend them on (SR and Rip would most likely already be up). Now is the time to come up with solutions, feedback and suggestions. At lvl 60 they’ll probably not make any major changes, just tune numbers up and down.

We have to call out bad design now. I believe SR is poorly designed and holds Feral back and will in the future. That is my opinion. I could be wrong and they’ve got something mindblowing planned for Feral down the line…

And yes Predatory Strikes would help a lot with survivabilty.