Cell/VuHdo/Healbot-Midnight

[Ashdrassil-minahonda]

@Uda-uldum

I mean… people whine about DBM telling people what to do… but in reality, Blizzard has already implemented a default in-house DBM that does exactly the same, except that you cant customize the visuals as you can with DBM. Because DBM dosent tell you what to do. It just puts countdowns on boss abilities so they dont come as a surprise, allowing YOU (the player) to take a decision to take proactive or reactive measures.

Really? I though all the fuss was to avoid boss fights to be predictable, which i could agree with. But they are just adding vanilla dbm anyway? lol

[Ishayo-tarren-mill]

@Ashdrassil-minahonda

Really? I though all the fuss was to avoid boss fights to be predictable, which i could agree with. But they are just adding vanilla dbm anyway? lol

Yeah we’re getting vanilla DBM…

But it’s not quite as powerful as DBM. It’s just boss timers.

[Ashdrassil-minahonda]

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

I’m not making a slippery slope argument - it’s an argument that even the things you’re asking for can be exploited by addons by using it in ways you don’t want to use it.

“I want the addons to be able to track my cds and buffs so i can customise my UI”
“So you want the game to do the decisions for you???”
Explain how this makes sense.

The weakauras that caused the problem were the ones who explicitly told you how you had to do a certain mechanic. If the addon cant read boss information of said mechanic, the addon cant tell you how to do it. Addons like MaxDPS that “told you the rotation” were never a problem because they werent never the optimal way to play (and in fact, blizzard is including it natively for casual players). So you say it will be “exploited in ways you don’t want to use it”. Tell me exactly how.

[Ishayo-tarren-mill]

@Ashdrassil-minahonda

“I want the addons to be able to track my cds and buffs so i can customise my UI”
“So you want the game to do the decisions for you???”
Explain how this makes sense.

I’ve explained it to you a hundred times already…

You’re not asking for the ability to track something to see it yourself, you’re asking for a program to be able to pick up the information that is being tracked to perform logic with it, hoping that developers are going to use the information to create tracking icons.

You’re dealing with LUA code.

I explained what the black box is about, what’s the deal with declarative programming, and hooking secret information sources together without knowing the secrets.

[Ashdrassil-minahonda]

Spare me the jargon. Tell me how an addon can use your personal cd information to make a logic so that it tells you how to play the game, without said example being MaxDPS/similar non optimal rotation addons.

[Ishayo-tarren-mill]

@Ashdrassil-minahonda

Spare me the jargon. Tell me how an addon can use your personal cd information to make a logic so that it tells you how to play the game, without said example being MaxDPS/similar non optimal rotation addons.

It’s not jargon, it’s literally the explanation.

If you can pull the data as it is you can recombine the information and figure out optimal ways to play.

If you cannot pull the data but can only pass it along to other places where the game itself manages it, then you cannot.

If you can’t understand this, and refuse to look up the more technical term that describes the difference, then i cannot help you - and I’m certainly not going to waste any more of my life trying to explain programming to someone who don’t care about programming.

[Ashdrassil-minahonda]

Yet you refuse to tell me a single example on how having personal data can lead to said “optimal ways to play”.

[Ishayo-tarren-mill]

@Ashdrassil-minahonda

Yet you refuse to tell me a single example on how having personal data can lead to said “optimal ways to play”.

You’ve done it yourself several times and I’ve also done it several times in the thread that sadly got deleted, but it was addressed to you.

Sorting what to dispel
WeakAuras combining information about your procs and buffs and what spells you just used and communicating with others doing the same thing
Hekili
I had that traffic lights example with fakecasting

I’m not going to waste any more time with you.

[Ashdrassil-minahonda]

Sorting what to dispel

Not an spell casted by your character, so doesnt enter on what i said.
Even then, bad example, as dispells not being clear enough is precisely one of many examples of blizzards bad game design - The problem is not an addon telling you what to dispell, rather blizzard failing to give a good visual indicator of an important dispell. If this was the case dispell addons wouldnt even be necessary, and i would agree with blizzard limiting them from the api.

Hekili

Im guessing this is another MaxDPS like addon. Again, not the optimal way to play.

I had that traffic lights example with fakecasting

Again, an enemy cast, not an spell casted by your character, so doesnt enter on what i said.

WeakAuras combining information about your procs and buffs and what spells you just used and communicating with others doing the same thing

How is this exactly problematic/too powerful?

[Uda-uldum]

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

But here’s the thing - I don’t want VuhDo to work not necessarily because of everything that VuhDo itself does, although I do think it does something things it shouldn’t be doing, but because the way VuhDo works uses COMBAT_LOG_EVENT_UNFILTERED and I want that thing shut down because you can do some truly outrageous things with it.

Ok there is something you are missunderstanding here.

//////// FIRST ////////////

VuhDuh itself (and Cell, and Healbot)… dosent show more information than what the default UI does.

The only advantage over the default UI is that it lets you customize the appearance of that raid frame, and make it more efficient. Including your own buffs (such as riptide) and debuffs (such as dispells). The size of shields you put on people. You can select SOME buffs to be shown, and others not (if you want). You can choose to show ALL dispells regardless of type, or only the ones you can dispel.

All the “logic” it gets from the combat log is to color a box purple instead of putting a little, barely visible icon on the top left corner. Another “logic” it uses are buffs that SHOULD be in the default UI, but aren’t. For example, Ancestral Vigor buff.

All that information is in the default UI. Just in a super disorganized, not clear way, and some of it is missing.

//////////////// Targeted Spells WA /////////////

This thing DOES take information from the combat log. What this does is take the information “mob A is casting Smite on Player A” and the “logic” it does is to simply put a box with the “smite drawing” in the party frame of Player A. That’s IT.

Its up to you to kick the mob. To heal the player. Whatever.

Now. What has Blizzard done about this? Because we dont have to wait untill Midnight to know.

In the case of DDs. In a raid. When you are targeted with a “nuke” of some-sort, blizzard has decided to transmit that information to the DD in a clear way. For example: A big red arrow over his head.

That way. Its CLEAR to the DD that they are the target of that mechanic, and have to do something about it. With OUT DBM. With OUT add-ons.

And I agree with that.

Now. Switch to the PoV of a healer. I need to know WHO has that mechanic. Its my JOB to do something about it.

How would you show, in a CLEAR and obvious way which of the 20 players in the raid is the target of said mechanic?

That’s right. Draw a “big red arrow” on the party frames.

////////////// DBM and equivalents ///////////////

Blizzard has already implemented DBM. That works in Raids. But it DOSENT work in M+. Its buggy in bosses, and dosent show ANY of the abilities of the packs.

This is important for the healer as well. I need to know with some seconds in advance when the “big AoE” will happen.

And in this case, there is no discussion about the Combat Log Event. Because blizzard ALREADY implemented this in their default UI.

/////////////// CONCLUSION /////////////

As you can see. I am not asking for keeping addons as they are. All I am saying is that blizzard has been SEVERELY slacking in the update process of the UI for healers. ALL our tools are outdated. ALL our tools are from Vanilla era.

And from what I see… Blizzard is focusing 100% of their attention on making the DD’s UI. Ignoring healers. Again. Like they have been for 20 years.

The ONLY saving grace was a couple of Nerds that made Cell and VohDoo to cover the a.s.s of Blizzard. But now that they wont be there, blizzard has to step up it’s game.

And they haven’t done so for 20 years. Why should they do a 180 deg change in 4 months now?

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

I just don’t agree here fundamentally. I genuinely think that you should be using the game world to orient what dangers are coming.

Yeah… but not to YOU, the player. To OTHERS. That’s the whole game of being a healer.

So if you get obvious warnings on YOU (the player) about what YOU should do… then so should I…

In other words. If you got a Hekili built into the game. To help you execute your rotation better. And a 1-button macro to help you even further in YOUR roll. Then where are my “healer helps” huh?

I cant have a blinking party frame telling me “Player X is about to die” but you can have a Hekili that helps you out in your rotation in case you forget to press buttons?

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

People had no timers and yet somehow just knew exactly what was coming up 3-4 steps ahead.

Because the dungeons and raids back then were Vanilla Wailing Caverns. You cant do a dungeon like that today.

Stop comparing the past with the present.

And FYI: You know how the addon arms-race started? Because Blizzard implemented new “cool mechanics” for people to play. Because a dummy with a lot of HP was getting a bit boring as a raid boss.

But. They forgot to make those mechanics OBVIOUS. They forgot to update their UI for 20 years. They forgot many things. The “big red arrow” mechanics were implemented in SHADOWLANDS. 18 years after Vanilla…

And 20 years of TOTAL slacking got us into this mess. So they FIRST have to prove to me that they will stop slacking. And will develop UI updates as fast as addon devs can. Otherwise, stop wasting my time.

[Tsjardi-argent-dawn]

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

Weeell… that depends, doesn’t it? If it just makes it purple because there’s a curse, then no, it doesn’t it’s just informational.

And this is basically all we ask for. That is Vuhdo or ElvUi or Cell. It isn’t in anyway telling who or what to dispell. It just makes the unitframe purple/green/yellow/blue depending on curse/poison/magic/desease. Thats all. But apparently we are not allowed to.

[Uda-uldum]

@Tsjardi-argent-dawn

And this is basically all we ask for. That is Vuhdo or ElvUi or Cell. It isn’t in anyway telling who or what to dispell. It just makes the unitframe purple/green/yellow/blue depending on curse/poison/magic/desease. Thats all. But apparently we are not allowed to.

Not only that.

DDs get: Hekili. 1-button assist, brand new Plater, built in DBM, obvious and clear raid/dungeon mechanics (swirly animations)… They get a CD organizer or whatever it’s called…

And what do we get:

A raid frame that hasent changed since WotlK. That shows things in a super confusing way. With half the things being irrelevant, and half of the relevant things not showing. A click keybinds that don’t work or bug out…

I mean… PLEASE… we get garbage in comparison… its simply not fair. Midnight will start and DDs will get a 2025 UI. We will be stuck with WotlK piece of s.h.i.t…

[Dorkules-twisting-nether]

Apparently on a video I watched the other day blizzard is improving the base raid frames for midnight too. Hopefully the inbuilt click casting works better because I couldn’t get it to work. I use an mmo mouse and 1-12 on it is bound to F1 to F12 and then I use 1-8 for cooldown.

Mind also saying that it looks like rsham only have 6 spells left at this point so it may not matter

[Uda-uldum]

@Dorkules-twisting-nether

Mind also saying that it looks like rsham only have 6 spells left at this point so it may not matter

I care. I dont want to click on the screen to change the camera angle and accidentally Frost Shock some mob because I happened to click on it…

Also, FYI: We have 6 spells right now. Nothing really changes on that regard. I am really sad that CB totem is deleted. But in hindsight, it was a choice node with Healing Stream anywais.

And the Healing Wave / Healing Surge consolidation should have happened like 10 years ago atleast.

[Dorkules-twisting-nether]

I am pretty sure blizzard will make click casting can be set to only work on unit frame and not on hover over enemy. They will get plenty feedback from streamer healers about this already.

You aren’t wrong there. I don’t know how I feel about having to choose between ascendance and healing stream totem too. They are reducing its cooldown. But I suppose it will all work out in the end.

I really do feel like the game needed to slow down a little even though I really enjoy it right now.

[Uda-uldum]

@Dorkules-twisting-nether

You aren’t wrong there. I don’t know how I feel about having to choose between ascendance and healing stream totem too. They are reducing its cooldown. But I suppose it will all work out in the end.

Healer CDs, healer Modifiers, and DD defensives needed to be nerfed. That’s for sure.

The question is other healers got nerfed as much as we did. That is the real conundrum here.

My personal PoV? Nerfing CDs and modifiers was required. Streamlining specs and deleting useless spells was required. Deleting everything down to 1 button and boring “+12% crit” talents… is too far.

[Ishayo-tarren-mill]

@Uda-uldum

VuhDuh itself (and Cell, and Healbot)… dosent show more information than what the default UI does.

But it does combine multiple data sources not into a more conveniently placed set of locations, but into a completely new understanding of the information based on logic.

@Uda-uldum

The only advantage over the default UI is that it lets you customize the appearance of that raid frame

Great!

@Uda-uldum

and make it more efficient

Not great!

@Uda-uldum

All the “logic” it gets from the combat log is to color a box purple instead of putting a little, barely visible icon on the top left corner.

Addon author needs to be able to take the purple icon and reskin that into the purple box. That’s the bottom line. I want them to make sure that’s possible, and I think it already is - you should see what the new DBM is shaping up to be! He’s already reskinning the whole thing and making it more conveniently presented according to his tastes.

@Uda-uldum

All that information is in the default UI. Just in a super disorganized, not clear way, and some of it is missing.

Well… you certainly can’t get any info that’s not in the API, so so far so good. But man you can do a lot of logic and decisionmaking with the information you do get.

@Uda-uldum

This thing DOES take information from the combat log. What this does is take the information “mob A is casting Smite on Player A” and the “logic” it does is to simply put a box with the “smite drawing” in the party frame of Player A. That’s IT.

Its up to you to kick the mob. To heal the player. Whatever.

Could do more though. Hey, let’s do that targeting and then instead of just showing that, we quickly read your tooltips as well and then we say "smite coming on A, use ability X and then Y to heal exactly what he wants.

@Uda-uldum

Blizzard has already implemented DBM. That works in Raids. But it DOSENT work in M+. Its buggy in bosses, and dosent show ANY of the abilities of the packs.

This is important for the healer as well. I need to know with some seconds in advance when the “big AoE” will happen.

And in this case, there is no discussion about the Combat Log Event. Because blizzard ALREADY implemented this in their default UI.

Yeah it’s not really that easy to do because they don’t want boss timers on trash packs, so…

@Uda-uldum

As you can see. I am not asking for keeping addons as they are. All I am saying is that blizzard has been SEVERELY slacking in the update process of the UI for healers. ALL our tools are outdated. ALL our tools are from Vanilla era.

Trust me vanilla was so much worse. The health bars were tiny, you could only drag out groups of 5 at a time, you couldn’t resize them. There were no buffs or debuffs, no soak display, etc.

@Uda-uldum

The ONLY saving grace was a couple of Nerds that made Cell and VohDoo to cover the a.s.s of Blizzard. But now that they wont be there, blizzard has to step up it’s game.

That they do.

And the difference between us is that I’m willing to give them a try. If it turns into an unmitigated disaster that isn’t something people can overcome by changing their playstyle a bit - revert it. The game has to be playable, maybe not how it’s played right now but definitely playable, with the default UI - addons or not.

@Uda-uldum

Yeah… but not to YOU, the player. To OTHERS. That’s the whole game of being a healer.

So if you get obvious warnings on YOU (the player) about what YOU should do… then so should I…

In other words. If you got a Hekili built into the game. To help you execute your rotation better. And a 1-button macro to help you even further in YOUR roll. Then where are my “healer helps” huh?

I gotta be honest with you - I’ve opposed most of those additions, too. Surely you’ll remember how I felt about OBR?

@Uda-uldum

Because the dungeons and raids back then were Vanilla Wailing Caverns. You cant do a dungeon like that today.

Be serious for a minute.

It wasn’t Wailing Caverns - we were playing with default or near default in world class high end PvP getting ready for BlizzCon for RBG and arena. These encounters were harder than the healing you’re doing right now, I guarantee it.

@Uda-uldum

But. They forgot to make those mechanics OBVIOUS. They forgot to update their UI for 20 years. They forgot many things. The “big red arrow” mechanics were implemented in SHADOWLANDS. 18 years after Vanilla…

Honestly? I really think you’re being too much right now. This is outrageous and a slap in the face of people who actually did spend so much time making WoW’s UI. It’s HUGELY more featured than it was in 2004. Try logging into Classic and tell me it has every feature of retail. Lol you can’t even see the size of an enemy’s health pool.

There’s no absorbs, no debuffs or buffs on enemies unless you’re a mage and reveal magic, there’s no focus target, the nameplates are just level + a green health bar, there are no quest markers, no PvP panel, no group browser, no click casting, disorganised spellbook with a single spell taking up nearly an entire page due to ranks, no boss frames, no arena frames (even if it had arena), most of your stats aren’t in your character frame at all, no macros like /cast or /use or conditions - enjoy CastSpellByName() - no #showtooltip, no target of target (that was added during vanilla) and on and on it goes.

[Uda-uldum]

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

@Uda-uldum

VuhDuh itself (and Cell, and Healbot)… dosent show more information than what the default UI does.

But it does combine multiple data sources not into a more conveniently placed set of locations, but into a completely new understanding of the information based on logic.

I just dont like it when you take a bunch of snippets out of context.

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

@Uda-uldum

All the “logic” it gets from the combat log is to color a box purple instead of putting a little, barely visible icon on the top left corner.

Addon author needs to be able to take the purple icon and reskin that into the purple box. That’s the bottom line. I want them to make sure that’s possible, and I think it already is - you should see what the new DBM is shaping up to be! He’s already reskinning the whole thing and making it more conveniently presented according to his tastes.

The reason why VohDoo takes information from the API is because no addon (in the past, present, and future) can modify an existing blizzard UI element.

Fact of the matter is that no addon can change the blizzard party frames. What they do is create their own party frames and make the blizzard one invisible. That is how ALL addons work. And that is why they take information from the API.

And they do all that to change the position of 1 buff inside the Party Frames. It’s displayed in the default frames. But you want it bigger and on the top left. Instead of a tiny icon at the bottom left.

This the LITERAL discussion here. There is no logic whatsoever involved in this process. Its JUST presenting information in a different way.

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

@Uda-uldum

and make it more efficient

Not great!

And why not? You can change the position of your action bars to any place you want. To make YOUR gameplay more efficient. You can bind Frost Bolt to 1, or to 2. Whatever is more efficient for YOU.

You also have a blinking abilities when procs pop. So you see them better and improve efficiency. You also have a rotation assist (Hekili) to remind you of the important things to do. I can have a really long list of things you can customize from the Default UI to improve efficiency of a DD.

However. Why are healers all of a sudden FORCED to see their UI as blizzard decides? With zero customization possible? Why is this even a topic of discussion?

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

@Uda-uldum

All that information is in the default UI. Just in a super disorganized, not clear way, and some of it is missing.

Well… you certainly can’t get any info that’s not in the API, so so far so good. But man you can do a lot of logic and decisionmaking with the information you do get.

Same as a DD right? A mob starts to cast “Smite Volley” or a frontal, or you can see the debuffs the mobs have. You CLEARLY see it infront of you.

You can customize all that in the base UI. You can make debuffs bigger. Cast bars bigger. Whatever…

And with that information, YOU take a decision. Do I kick? Do I move to the left, or right? Do I have enough debuffs and should I cast X ability?

You cant give THAT to a DD but refuse to give it to healers in the party frames.

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

@Uda-uldum

This thing DOES take information from the combat log. What this does is take the information “mob A is casting Smite on Player A” and the “logic” it does is to simply put a box with the “smite drawing” in the party frame of Player A. That’s IT.

Its up to you to kick the mob. To heal the player. Whatever.

Could do more though. Hey, let’s do that targeting and then instead of just showing that, we quickly read your tooltips as well and then we say "smite coming on A, use ability X and then Y to heal exactly what he wants.

But it DOSENT do that.

Because healers dont work like DDs. I repeat: There is no “healer simulator” or “hekili helper” in the market. The code that can logically predict “use ability X and then Y” dosent exist. And believe me, people tried and failed.

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

Yeah it’s not really that easy to do because they don’t want boss timers on trash packs, so…

And why not? Divine Toll from the Paladins in Priory is as dangerous (if not more) than any bosses in that dungeon. So shy should a boss have a timer. But 1 mob that can literally wipe your group cant?

Also. Hard to do? DBM does it… So can blizz.

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

@Uda-uldum

The ONLY saving grace was a couple of Nerds that made Cell and VohDoo to cover the a.s.s of Blizzard. But now that they wont be there, blizzard has to step up it’s game.

That they do.

And the difference between us is that I’m willing to give them a try. If it turns into an unmitigated disaster that isn’t something people can overcome by changing their playstyle a bit - revert it. The game has to be playable, maybe not how it’s played right now but definitely playable, with the default UI - addons or not.

I am not willing to give them a try. I have been waiting for a default WORKABLE healer UI for decades now.

I know. Because I remember when I started to heal. And I understand why nobody wants to heal and gets super stressed about it…

But basically, you change your talents (or start in Exile’s Reach) from DD to healer and the party frames dosent even show up. What many healers new to the roll try to do is literally click on the players infront of them as if they were mobs and try to press 12345 keybinds.

And of course people fail. And of course nobody does it. Because healing =/= DDing.

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

I gotta be honest with you - I’ve opposed most of those additions, too. Surely you’ll remember how I felt about OBR?

I do, and OBR is an extreme example. But what about CD manager? What about Hekili? What about the Default Blizzard (the old, old version) that blinked your abilities when a proc poped or something? I dont get default “performance assistance” like that?

And I am not asking for one either. I just want clear information on the party frames that to, at-least, let me take decisions efficiently.

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

It wasn’t Wailing Caverns - we were playing with default or near default in world class high end PvP getting ready for BlizzCon for RBG and arena. These encounters were harder than the healing you’re doing right now, I guarantee it.

Right. You are somehow telling me that bosses in Molten Core somehow are not dummies compared to today?

And you had difficulties playing back in the day because computers and internet connections used to be potatoes. That is a factor to take into consideration as well.

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

Honestly? I really think you’re being too much right now. This is outrageous and a slap in the face of people who actually did spend so much time making WoW’s UI. It’s HUGELY more featured than it was in 2004. Try logging into Classic and tell me it has every feature of retail. Lol you can’t even see the size of an enemy’s health pool.

All that “effort” has been in the past couple of years. They had 18 years to stop slacking. Not just in the UI. But in encounter design as well.

How many years did it take them to do what other games got right literally on day ONE with swirlies?

How many times have you died before because the edge of a swirly was not properly defined. You did not really know if you were 1 pixel in or out. If you were gonna live or die…

PLEASE…

[Elahra-mograine]

@Ishayo-tarren-mill

Honestly? I really think you’re being too much right now. This is outrageous and a slap in the face of people who actually did spend so much time making WoW’s UI. It’s HUGELY more featured than it was in 2004. Try logging into Classic and tell me it has every feature of retail. Lol you can’t even see the size of an enemy’s health pool.

Classic was dumb as hell though.

Decursive was the dumbest thing I ever seen in a mmo. “Oh, I press this to see if someone has a debuff”, instead of them making them more spottable and then they killed decursive without fixing the problem.

[Thanatan-tarren-mill]

Because their whole nonsense reasoning is to make it easier for new players. Guess what, writing macros with undocumented/hard to find conditions is substantially harder than installing an add-on that just requires you to bind your keys