During the discussion below I reached higher clarity of what exactly bothers me about warcraft logs, and I try to verbalise it better now:
While warcraft logs provides many advantages, this website seems to further amplify the obsession of wow players about their DPS. I think this obession is very unhealthy for the game. Not because doing high damage isn’t fun. On the contrary. I love pumping high damage. However, the issue lies in parsing, and too many people trying to change the color of their parse instead of actually playing the game by using all their spells including utility. The developpers create raids, dungeons, and talent trees with team play in mind, not parsing.
This dps ranking obsession our community cultivates actively by using badly done warcraft logs analysis, where they try to figure out stuff like highest damage specs via wrong tier lists, etc. is not only suboptimal regarding efficiency of the raid, but it also actively damages their success as a player, even though their aim is apparently to “parse” high. For someone, who cares about their wcl average, and for guilds, who evaluate players based on the number of their parse, this encourages a playstyle, where it’s never worth pressing utility for other people, because you would waste a global. The very common wrong usage of warcraft logs basically invalidates all of blizzard’s effort, which they out into dungeon/raid/talent design. I advocated for warcraft logs to be deleted, because of the incompetence of our community to use this amazing tool properly.
However, I think maybe a better solution would be to simply remove the gaussian curve, because in most cases it doesn’t really say anything. Comparing a 70 and a 85 parse without context is useless. I’m not against some sort of score, but the ego dps obsession needs to go. As mentionned below, maybe we should instead move on from parsing, and instead make speedrunning meta, because this is the pinnacle of teamplay.
Most people that I’ve met with great logs did a great job on mechanics while most grey parsers fail all of them…
You’re talking about cheesing, while that might be the case in the top 1-5% and nobody cares about that.
And yes ofc the better players use WCL, because it’s a great tool to improve. That’s the point of this tool: to become better.
That’s like saying “it’s unfair that the guy that’s using all his chess pieces wins because he is using more than me!”
From your text it’s also clear that you have no clue about WCL, narrowing it down to DPS. You can see literally the whole fight including mechanics, parses are just a quick check of the most fundamental stat that is required to kill bosses. Having a 15k DPS in Mythic who is doing all mechanics correctly is just as useless as top DPS failing everything… But the first one is filtered with one glance, the other one at the second.
You mean like with the dungeon logs where you can’t really see much of the personal performance, which makes it a joke since you can’t see boosted people unless you look at the raw numbers…
Like I said: you can get into the 70 without having a full DPS playstyle. I mean… Try to find a good player fighting raza without interrupt/dispel/stun because duh! DPS!
The talent trees are doing their job and good players take utility where it’s needed because it’s needed. You see utility as DPS loss, while utility done right is a DPS gain most of the times.
It’s a valuable tool for improving my build and staying up to date with changes by comparing it to others (and myself).
I don’t care if some people abuse it and if you’re way below others in parses, there’s usually a reason for that.
It’s not bad, its a useful tool that helps players evaluate performance in raids. No one i know uses it for dungeons.
You can compare yourself to other better performing players and see where you are casting different spells or even watch a replay of the fight to identify where you are moving too much etc.
It can be used as a stick to beat people with but so can anything.
Looks like the OP got called out on some bad logs and is mad.
So if I know a gap in mechanics is coming and there’s nothing to look at… why can’t I look over to see how I’m doing compared to what I did last time at the same point? This is one of the worst takes I’ve ever heard.
Logs and dps meters can be useful and they can help players improve, they are a useful tool. You don’t have to use them ofc. I think taking away options from others is never the answer.
A lot of/most people look at it during the fight. As said, there is a way to use it correctly, but it’s not the predominant one. In every situation however the most optimal thing to do is to look at something else for your individual perfomance and evaluate afterwards. For example, you can look at the boss during those gaps to see what’s coming next and decide what you should do, or maybe think of utility you can press to increase someone else’s dps. In my opinion, this website causes way too much damage to the community and the game. I think Details is very useful and good, but only to analyze afterwards, and not only damage. Look at how much damage you took by what. The way pvpers use details should also be the way pvers use it in my opinion, but most just look at damage for ego. The reason I know this is because I’m doing it myself. I feel very good and pro, when I do 20% more damage than everyone else in my group, but my healing taken is usually also highest. This is an analyss tool, but what purpose does it have, when the overwhelming majority uses it in a very toxic and self-destructive way, while a small percentage knows what they’re doing.
You wouldn’t have made this thread if it was just about people’s ego, nor would you have hidden your profile if this wasn’t about YOUR parses.
Stop pretending to be looking out for the community when it’s clearly about your feelings having been hurt by someone calling out your bad parses. And stop trying to control how other people play the game, it’s not your business what happens on my screen.
No; I opted out of parses in general, and this char is not my main, so it doesn’t matter. Also, the fact you try looking up my logs just shows why I’m right. Even if I had bad logs, which we don’t know thankfully, this wouldn’t prove me wrong, and if I had 100 logs, it wouldn’t prove anything aswell. Additionally, do you actually think I’m raiding currently, if I turned off being shown on wcl? This is the thing: No non-ubercasual raid will accept me without being shown on a third party site.
You are partially correct. They can be useful. Sometimes, however, options will make everyone play a certain way, where metas develop, and deviations from this meta is rare. That’s why we see people just copying talent builds. People wanna do the highest damage, and they don’t care about how efficient their raid is. People don’t pick talents, which are a net-improvement to the raids clear speed, but instead they try to improve their own dps. This can be attributed to players using warcraft logs in a wrong way, but the way they use it is actually encouraged by the website.
Leaders can choose whom they invite, and nobody wants to play with buyers and bad players.
You’re not the first to think you should be entitled to joining a group without providing any proof of being good. Maybe you are good, but the only way pug leaders can keep the bad apples out is by forcing everyone to show their hands.
You chose to hide yours, and we respect your privacy.
You remove Warcraftlogs and it will simply be replaced by something else.
Correct. And the people that do so you know to avoid in the future.
Considering its a tool that vastly helps you improve and analyze fights this decision of yours is very questionable.
No. But it lets me check what people did in full detail.
Ye thats just plain false.
They can be cheesed yes. But saying skill has nothing to do with it is questionable at best.
It isnt useless. But a 70% log is more than enough to finish an encounter yes. You can still improve and analyzing fights can help you.
Those people who set the meta dont use parses. They ARE the parses.
People do. As i said if you were to remove Warcraftlogs something else would simply replace it in one form another.
Its fun in a group of friends. And i argue against it regardless. Details is not just tracking your DPS but a multitude of things in general.
There are people that can multitask.
So? Then you ditch these guilds. Those guilds are either hardstuck at their level or bound to disband.
For those that dont know how to use Warcraftlogs. For the ones that do its the other way around.
As i said: Multitasking. Also define “after the encounter is over” considering the amount of chainpulls in a dungeon without ever really stopping.
Wowhead and their obnoxious “look at the top ranks for week X here!!!” is more of an issue since more people pay attention to that website and its news and wowhead not going into detail.
The thing you describe is a thing since Vanilla. Its as old as this game. This isnt anything that was started by warcraftlogs or even noteworthy amplified. Meta-slaves were always a thing.
Thanks for actually reading what I said before replying. I think you misunderstood my last quote though. I mean, that the meta is defined by what people view as the meta. Meta is not the most optimal way to play the game. I don’t have a problem with meta slaves, but the meta is tailored around highest dps. I think the meta should be clear speed and efficiency. This will lead to healthier gameplay and more optimal choices rather than just copy pasting whatever sims highest. Warcraft logs and as you mentionned wowhead using their gaussian dps distribution in a toxic/stupid way stops that from happening, and youtubers amplify this hard by making videos about highest percentage logged specs. Simultaneously blizzard designs/balances their game around clearing, not around parsing. Total disparity
It is. By definition. At least until that point with information given and processed at the current state of the game. Unless the game changes through a patch/hotfix or new information is being discovered it is the most optimal way to play the game. The issue is that people dont know how to use the “meta data”. Best example were Enha shamans in SoD. They were Meta because of them buffing the ever living poop out of Warriors and Rogues but regular people did not invite them due to only seeing “low dps”.
You do realize that DPS adds to that as well? Quite heavily so dependent on the boss.
Read above. And that wont change. You can also not stop sims from being a thing ever. At best you would make them less accurate but you would never stop them. They are not die hard reliant on the games API.
Warcraftlogs only displays raw data. You cant really blame it for that. The issue is the people not reading said data correctly.
WoWhead/youtubers as i said are more of an issue since they dont go into full detail or dont know how the game works or sometimes even both.
I would respect/accept warcraft logs as a tool personally under the condition, that the dps ranking and its gaussian percentage is removed. This will make people think about it more than just “ohh look I belong to the 1% of best players”, when they just pressed aoe (see anduin fight as reference). Instead your log should be compared to the best player, and noone else to see how your rotation deviates. The best players should be determined by some sort of average between players of the 10 fastest clearing guilds. If something better replaces WCL, power to it, but WCL currently makes the game worse for most people, and raids clear less efficient. The reason why I advocate for removal is because most people aren’t mature/experienced enough to do proper analysis.
Also, sure, dps and clear speed amplify eachother, but not linearly proportional. Parsing and achieving best clear speed will be played very differently at the highest level, and players copy the number 1 position on warcraft logs, since this is what is defined as the meta in wow, even if it’s not most efficient sadly.
No it does not. It doesnt make anything less efficient on its own, its a tool and as such does not affect the clear speed of a raid in any way. The players do that.
The fastest way to clear a raid is for the team to do as much damage as possible without dying to mechanics. This tool helps guilds analyse where they are going wrong to improve performance. Nothing more.
Its not up to you to decide who should use it and who should not. If you dont want to use it fine, but you are not a wow dev and if they didnt like it they would disable the ability to log in the game.
Then another site would display it. Effectively changing nothing.
It wouldnt. Either without the new site they would make an “educated guess” or go to the new site. You cant get this mindset out of peoples head as easily as you think.
Which is why warcraftlogs also has a boss damage category. And in extreme cases warcraftlogs removes padding from its ranking.
That would be as wonky as the thing you judge. There are many aspects that play a role of how fast you can clear the raid. Good players are one of them. Your setup another. A “proper” setup can make a day and night difference even if you have “worse” players. Also time invested plays a role. A guild that raids 4 days a week will clear the raid faster than a guild that raids 1 day per week even if the 1day guild has the better players in the vast majority of cases.
Your DPS can make a major difference dependent on the boss. Raszageth is a prime example here with guilds skipping the fifth or even fourth pushback.
And that wont change. As i said this mentality is as old as the game itself. If you were to remove warcraftlogs or any similar site then people will just go with “what sims highest” instead.