Not standing in one shot mechanics is what makes you not die from them
Specs don’t become meta because the best players in the world like to stand in one shot mechanics. They become meta because they have the ability to survive massive amounts of unavoidable damage.
Being a tanky dps that mitigates a lot of damage and being a squishier dps with a cheat death serves the same purpose here.
increase all damage done and healing done for ret by 10% for pvp and make shield of vengeance 2 charges instead of 1
ret is amalgamation of dps and tank at the same time
for example shield of veng can absorbs something like 300k damage in pvp if your full geared and one eye beam or 2 chaos bolt can break it and the returned damage to your target is not enough to break their absorbs shields or their health even byt 15%/
those ret paladins are not dps and nor tank wtf is this
not everyone is fulll skilled at pvp and ret.
even i cant play it most of the times
Its not gonna change anything much since its tier set is not bout Crushing Blow and while Recklessness Abandon is only 1 charge fury is stil gonna underperform in pvp 
Are you joking or are you pretending ? You know some basic casts 1 shot at higher level of keys right ?
I answered this at top not gonna repeat it. What you write here basically only works probably up till 24 and till that point probably you can even play single minded fury and somewhat time the keys if you play good.
If Blizzard add a legendary, you shouldn’t be balanced around the legendary unless it’s a 100% certain thing for dedicated players. If it’s not 100% you should balance it around making those who have it, overpowered. Traditionally, this IS how they have balanced such things.
Being middle of the pack on damage isn’t a very good way to judge viability or desirability, in M+ it’s utility that matters unless a class is miles ahead or behind. Also, unless melee does more damage, it’s less desired than ranged in M+ due to ranged being safer and taking less skill.
In raids it’s another matter, but utility or a niche damage profile that fits the fight has won world first races rather than generic “overpowered” damage, unless the class has both (which sometimes is the case). Being in the middle of a graph doesn’t tell you anything at all that is valuable for discussion here.
Are you even an adult dude ? You are typing stuff that a 12yo wouldnt type, grow up, go play paladin to reach your 1.5k rating peak and dont even type. The moment you wrote “DH tears are kind of delicius” i understood that you are just another handless player crying in a forum, nothing new to me or anyone else.
No point giving you any value by typing to you my guy. Have fun 
[Cross posted from the Mage Forums]
Hello, I’m Pyrha! A seasoned mage player since WoD and almost exclusively a fire player since Legion. and I wanted to share my concerns with some of the design and tuning woes this spec is facing, as well as touch a bit on the state of mage as a whole in 10.2.
I will attempt to keep this post as constructive as I can but make no mistake, the neglect this class has received is an incredibly disappointing sight, all the same, I will try to keep the front half of this post focused on the issues the spec and class faces exclusively, but Ill also take a minute to vent my frustrations about the approach to fire and how it’s actively damaged the spec over the years.
First, let’s touch on some good.
The rework we received in 10.1.5 really inspired hope as it was our first design update in over a year by that point and re-established a solid footing for a spec that was by that point absolutely woeful in its design.
Namely, some of the good changes were:
• The removal of pyroclasm and baking it into SKB was a pretty elegant fix just altogether to the excessive hardcasting fire had to do
• The removal of rune of power cannot be understated, that spell only ever brought problems to the class and being able to once again move around while doing damage was very welcome
• The talent tree cleanup and the removal of many 2 point nodes was well appreciated
• The reworking of flamestrike and it being brought to relevance was fantastic for M+
• Ignite being capped so that it has a niche in low count to permit for fire to possess both strong ST and strong AoE without the balance nightmare involved was…. a good attempt. It’s nice to at least see the stated intent was a good idea, however this is where the problems begin.
On that note, the issues fire currently faces post rework:
• Beginning with ignite, I just can’t wrap my head around why it is still coupled to mastery, we’re possibly the only spec in the game which has an entirely separate playstyle hinging exclusively on how much of a secondary we can stack. Even with the aforementioned changes, ignite still is effectively our only form of relevant cleave regardless of target count. If you want to use flamestrike in raid you’d be actively trolling because of the enormous ST loss.
The solution here is to completely decouple mastery from ignite, ignite needs to always be stronger than flamestrike at a low enough target count (Ideally 3T), and weaker at a high enough target count, and in turn give us just a generic, easy to balance mastery. “Hotstreak damage increased by X%” seems reasonable to me. And we already have ignite talents in the tree which can be taken to increase ignite damage to be better than flamestrike on let’s say, 5t. which seems like a sensible tradeoff for some ST loss.
• Second problem is with Feel the Burn, which is both boring to play around and un-impactful to track, the damage loss from dropping FtB is insignificant because it can be built back up immediately anyway and also isn’t nearly a substantial enough buff to care about losing. If you insist on making us play the minigame of juggling a buff, Infernal Cascade was a much much better implementation of that idea, a very powerful buff that necessitated you juggle between fireblasts and phoenix flames to permit it to be carried throughout the course of a combustion. What we have now is basically passively maintained for as long as you throw out a generator every GCD which is how the spec plays anyway.
• The Third issue lies with Phoenix Flames, which without the Aberrus tier set has gone back to being a miserable button to press. It needs one of two fixes, either bring back infernal cascade so phoenix flames can play the role of a buffer between fireblasts which allows you to maintain the buff for longer, or barring that, make Alextrasza’s Fury baseline so you don’t need to take a talent just for an otherwise dead core spell to be usable.
• Temporal Warp, this is an issue for all mage specs and one that’s frankly unforgivable at this point.
How can you sensibly tune us around a 5 minute cooldown that is only used when your group decides to use it. Any fight where lust isn’t used on pull is a fight where mage damage tanks. Just give us a temporal warp button, we’re adults, we know how to macro them together. And Temporal Anomaly is not an alternative, it is far too inconsistent and brings an unwelcome variation to performance from pull to pull. Either remove this choice node entirely and do not tune us around having two Time Warps, or just remove TA and give us Temporal Warp on it’s own key.
• Unleashed Inferno, I have very strong feelings about this talent and am frankly baffled with how hard its balance was blundered. Fire since legion has found its niche as a 2-minute burst spec, after Nyalotha, this has been reduced to 1-minute burst which was still very useful in raids like Nathria, and after the introduction of SKB as a legendary our profile has completely flattened into what’s basically a straight line. The niche of burst in Dragonflight has since been picked up by arcane which specializes in a decently powerful 90 second burst CD (78 seconds with shifting power), especially with double time warp.
What this effectively means for fire, is that unless it is significantly ahead tuning wise, there is practically no reason to choose it over arcane. Seeing as arcane brings effectively the same (or usually more) dps with a damage profile that can be useful for killing priority adds, damage amps, or downtime.
In response to this, Unleashed Inferno was announced, a wonderful response to the fire mage woes during the rework, a combustion that dealt significantly more damage at the cost of consistent DPS every minute or so! Our burst was back! Then someone at the dev team decided to gut its CDR by 50%, and buff its damage by 5%, which under any metric ever created would have obviously killed the talent. And killed the talent it did.
Even two buffs later Unleashed Inferno is in an unusable state, even with fights that do have priority adds, damage amps, and downtime, SKB is the only viable talent. There is zero reason to ever choose anything else and this makes fire’s damage profile flat with no option to opt out, and as a result it brings nothing to progression except a cheat death which has honestly always been fluff anyway seeing as mage has a very wide defensive toolkit.
Drop this god forsaken short leash on the spec that you’ve put on it since Nyalotha that has deemed that it’s not allowed to do significant burst damage. You cannot in good faith create specs like rogue and demon hunter in 10.2 and pretend like mage burst is the real enemy, please just grow up and let us enjoy our spec’s one strength that has since been neutered.
On the topic of tuning for 10.2, it doesn’t take much to see that, design aside, mage specs are also just floundering numerically in raid at the moment:
h ttps://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/35/#dataset=95
And note this is before UHDK, Arms, and Ret Pallies receive their legendary axe, so imagine the disappointment when all three mage specs, which have no future recourse for increased power like a legendary, got absolutely nothing out of the patch except for a 20% self-damage buff to our best trinket while DH’s Rogues and BMs got very small nerfs (Though I understand more tuning to those specs is likely withstanding)
A lot of the time it feels like we as a community of players had to practically beg for anything to be done to our class, for feedback to be heard, and we thought the turning point of all those demands finally came through in the rework. But as feared the rework was a one and done deal, the class is back to being neglected, and it feels there’s not a single person on the balance team that plays this class for Blizzard to see the state it’s in and not think that it needs any help. For now, as usual, arcane is the only spec worth playing even if it’s also bad because it’s the only one with a favorable profile, and even then you bring just one for the intellect buff while the rest of the raid is stacked with DHs Rogues and Hunters.
I do apologize for the frustrated tone of this post, understand it comes from a place of love and dedication to a spec (Not even a class) that I have poured 7000 hours of my life into, I want to be able to play it without feeling like I’m actively harming my team or my performance, and I hope this write up reaches someone at Blizz who can sympathize with that.
Can we have a TLDR of that book? 
Fire’s tuning, and really mage in general is really poor this tier outside of Frost in Mythic+ and the class in all forms is largely just there for int buff. Fire has some unique problems, namely the confused position of ignite as a mastery, weakness of phoenix flames, and significant undertuning of unleashed inferno.
TL;DR
Remove Ignite from mastery and cap it
Give us a separate button for temporal warp
Replace Feel the Burn with the Shadowlands Conduit Infernal Cascade so Phoenix flames actually serves a purpose, or at least make Alexstraszas Fury baseline
Make unleashed inferno a real talent so fire can spec into 1 minute burst, seeing as at the moment SKB being a shoe in makes our profile flat with no distinguishing features, which makes us wholly dependent on tuning.
Speaking of, our tuning bad, so please buff.
Thats it.
wow… what a joke… nerf all the funny classes. You make me delete the game!
For once, Hunters were kinda of took care of… But I guess, since a looooong time, we were not even liked… And the buff came, finally
Reading this huge nerf, this is just disgusting and makes me sick playing my only one and beloved char, since Vanilla (!), thus accepting all ups and downs.
But this one is really a, how to politically / politely say it, a “shiat” one for all of us, the BM’s!
Thanks again for nothing, Blizzard, thanks again…
This nerf is a 3-4% damage reduction. In no way is it huge.
It’s a nerf to just the kill command contributions from your most recent dire beast caused by the 4 set, not kill command as a whole.
Can nobody read?
it will be December 6, not April 1, so the nerf should be at least -30%.
However, the damage for Unholy DK should be increased by +30%.
Because such are the discrepancies in dungeons, if not more in DH’s favor.
What has been announced here is one big joke.
I don’t see a nerf for the demo warlock, enh shaman or a strong nerf for the assa rogue.
The dmg burst of several classes in this game is so huge (BM, Havoc, Demo or Warrior) that the others are useless.
There hasn’t been such a misbalance discrepancy since Shadowlands S3, where the Survival Hunter and Destro Warlock did two or three times as much damage as the other class.
THIS IS A PATHETIC JOKE
Nothing will help you in this company, not even World Soulsaga.
And as recent years have shown, you haven’t released a single mediocre game, it was all mistakes and crap games.
You can’t calculate experience multipliers in D4 - that’s what you’ve become - you’re pathetically weak.
PS. the only thing you can count well is players’ money
Why do you hate me so much? I’m just a player like you who happened to choose to play a DH. I pay my monthly sub like you, I pay for my bills that runs this computer and network, I spend all my free time here, I pay for enchants and crafting mats, I wait at dungeon and raid queues for hours just like anyone else. I don’t play this game to get nerfed every time the class you picked underperforms and certainly I didn’t sign up to get nerfed by %30 percent just because top %1 players perform better than others in +30 keys which I’ll never play. I think they should stop with their nerfing habit for good and bring lower performers to other’s level in beta and test servers. No one wants this sht show after putting hours of effort, stress and money in their beloved characters.
They should not be nerfing anything. This only serves to increase negativity.
They should be buffing other classes/specs to bring them up to the same point or passed the point of the top classes/specs. Then they should buff the mobs/bosses/difficulty in line with that.
I remember casting chaos bolts which would hit for up to 2million damage in Pandaria.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHjHru-3Ckw
see the critical strikes on the illusionary sha at the end of the video.
The problem came when they slashed levels in half, wasn’t needed until we hit maybe level 200.
Since then stats have been imbalanced because the numbers are too small.
The smaller the amount of damage, the more noticeable the differences and the harder it is to try to keep things balanced. Think percentages to understand why.
An integer is 32 bits in size. If you only use 1 digit - it is still 32 bits.
Makes no sense for us to do such small amounts of damage as we do now.
How about, stop allowing player feedback to tilt the balance of the game!
Get someone who actually understands the game to balance it professionally and then you can stop catering to complaints.
Think about the Destruction Warlock for example…
You nerf Destruction and refuse to buff it to be amongst the top damage specs, because you are afraid of all the complaints you will get from the PvPers if Chaos Bolt actually does some significant damage. In an expansion which is all about dragons and Destruction, should Destruction Warlock be anywhere near the bottom at all? No, But it is at the bottom @warcraftlogs, because you let the players dictate this nonsense.
I absolutely agree with this but the community also needs to learn to ask for buffs instead of asking for nerfs all the time, nerfing is a viscious and negative thing to do to everyone, also agreed Blizz need to stop listening to the players altogether as players will always cry reguardless.
Just out of curiosity why would you tune 200+ different spells in dungeons, not to mention player abilities, by lets say 6% to bring them up on par with a single spec, when you can just lower the top performer by said 6%.
In an instant you are closer to solving a large gap between the specs without having to go through every single other spec AND dungeon AND raid encounters.
It does not make sense to raise everyone to the level the overperforming spec is at. Why would you do quadruple amount of work to get to the same result by tuning down an outlier?
So that the job is done properly and definitively. Instead of constantly needing to keep changing things with every single server restart.
Why do you keep nerfing rogues? Oh a oure dps class is top dps? PICKATCHUFACE!
Always nerf. Here nerf. There nerf. Nerf up nerf down nerf left nerf right nerf diagonal nerf nerf nerf nerf.
A pure dps class does too mich dps oh no, nerf! Nerf everywhere. For you folks, nerf is life. Nerf is happyness but what I see is only darkness.