Consecration’s spellpower coefficients is currently so crushed its made it difficult for Consecration to fulfill its purpose for Protection.
Its obvious that Protadin is being structured around the TBC model of using Spellpower as its threat stat, however if the coefficient on Consecration is so low that it barely scales no matter how geared you get, what tool takes its place for multi target threat? Ret aura certainly cant. Holy Shield and pray? Carry Oils of Immolation and EZ Thro Dynamite?
Revert the Consecration spellpower coefficient nerf or you are creating an inevitable threatcap scenario in the future for Protadins that just MAKE % GO UP on Righteous Fury can never fix.
And people do not bring threat capped tanks to content.
This right here, blizzard, let yhe light damage be low, but you have removed basically all spell power scaling from this, you have ruined the spell completely.
Just take an absurd number, lets say you have 1000 spell power. That would equal to consecration tick for +42 damage.
That’s because they have zero clue what the prot paladin should be.
None whatsoever. They talk about tank parity and how there should be pros and cons for each of them, but.. It’s just a very long list of cons for paladins. I half suspect they forgot to invite a class designer for the whole Paladin restructuring, because all 3 specs are.. odd.
I can live with not having good active mitigations, less defensive cooldowns, no DPS when not tanking, no interrupts and no mobility and core stats that only benefit my damage, but does nothing for me otherwise and there’s going to be far less of that for Paladins than there’s going to be strength for Warriors/Druids. But then I at least want to have sustain when tanking and when I’m not tanking and I want higher threat than the two other tanks.
Don’t even have a proper taunt and no range pull. It’s a bit of a joke.
Fully agree on this. They nerfed consecration baseline damage, so you now need about 180 spellpower to have consecration deal the same amount as it did in classic at level 60. Mind you, this is the uncapped version we talk about. The 4 target cap version should at least be doing more damage baseline than a classic uncapped version.
So what purpose does gearing spell power have now? My lvl 30 ‘twink’ paladin on the beta had 130 spellpower and the consecration gained about 5 damage per tick, resulting in a total of 15 damage per tick. Now compare the level 30 classic version which does 120 damage over 8 sec baseline (no spellpower gear needed). 120 damage : 8 sec = 15 damage per tick.
So my level 30 fully twinked paladin with 130 spellpower unbuffed, is doing the same damage as a classic consecration without ANY gear.
What purpose does this gearing have now? To feel as strong as a green geared classic paladin in full twink gear in Forever? I don’t understand.
It’s not useless its just the worst AOE now because it cannot be positioned, Bears have swipe, warriors have cleave, both can be dynamically positioned. Consecrate is fire and hope.
Is it the damage people have problem with or the threat? i cant test this so well as i have high (90+) sp on my paladin on the beta atm but i rarely have problems with threat. i know they dont want people to do the big pulls from tbc and retail so if you pull around 4-5 mobs i rarely any problems with threat. And if the packs are bigger thats when you should use CC like polly, sap and traps.
Its a bit of both. Its a horrible stationary 4 mob max AoE.
As other people have said, bears & warriors have cleave, swipe and can be dynamically positioned (and these scale well with AP) so the damage is not just total trash.
They are doing their best to make a paladin into something it aint compatible with. Blizzard said everyone should shine somewhere, mages shine at AoE dps, rogues at single target dps, warriors at single target tanking, paladins just dont shine at all anywhere, all 3 specs are lacking and the spell power scaling is horrible for everything.
What i am most concerned about is that me as a twinked 30 paladin having 160 spell power and dealing very low damage compared to the SP i have, how bad would this feel for a level 30 under normal conditions without the 160 spell power?
And seeing the datamined gear from 60s we are not getting much more SP. Perhaps 250-300 at best? If so we are going to have a hard time.
Unless they make it so higher ranks spells & abilities have a better spell coefficient. That could be a solution
dose the damage mater in group play when you are playing the tank? as long as you can keep threat isent that the point of tanks. they did buff the % on RF from 60 back to 90 and nerfed the SP coa on cons in the same patch, dosent that show they have threat in mind but wanted to just lower our damage?
My druid tank does 16000 threat on a boss. It’s got worse gear than my Paladin.
My Warrior tank does 14500 threat on a boss. It’s got worse gear than my Paladin.
My Paladin tank does 8000 threat on a boss. It’s the best geared of them all.
My Paladin in Ret spec does 10000 threat on a boss.
This was timed on a 1min 10s fight. My Paladin was OOM after 40s, Ret was not.
My Paladin tank is en par with a Warrior in terms of damage and my Druid does more damage than my Paladin. Warrior is en par with Paladin in terms of AoE and Druid surpass both of them.
Here’s the fun fact of the day:
Paladin:
No taunt
No ranged pull
Terrible active mitigation that requires talenting
Only 1 defensive, through talents. It’s not bad, not great either.
See threat issue above
No sustain anymore, it’s actively going to be losing 20mana/s at lvl 60 going OOM in 150s and/or with SoW in 230s.
Threat that does not scale aside from damage, druid scale with crits giving 50% more threat and AP increases their base damage, warrior scale with AP getting more flat threat and damage.
Worse gearing options, for a Paladin to keep up it would need far more SP than a Druid and a Warrior need AP/Crit which is impossible to obtain.
Only gimmick is that it’s a tank that relies doing threat when it’s taking damage.
Cannot be crushing immune and does not have the stamina/armor to make it a non-issue.
It’s “core” talents actively works against the idea of a shield tank, losing uptime the more parry, dodge and miss you get.
It’s capstone talent gives Holy Shield. In order for Holy Shield to even dispense all 4 charges on a standard raid boss you need 80% block, that’s impossible as you get 31.2% parry/dodge/miss.
It’s a very long list of cons and you no longer need 3 Paladins in a raid to give BoM/BoK/Salv and BoW/BoK/Salv so may as well skip the Prot Paladin. There needs to be some massive overhauls of Prot Paladin to make it a viable option in raids.
I can see the mana problem when tanking/off-tanking and that the gearing options will be strange and hard to get right but both threat and scaling is a tuning problem not a core class problem. And as we dont know how the raids will work yet we cant be sure that crushing immune is something that will even be needed, sure if its in paladin will need something to help with that but no need to doom hard on that untill we know more. And we do have a taunt, but i can agree that it’s not nice to having it locked on a rotational spell. And we do have range pull just not as long range as druids/warriors.
Threat scaling is impossible to get right. To scale threat you need to get higher coefficiencies and give more SP on gear. That in turns scales all our damage and balloon us exactly into why we were nerfed in the first place.
Compare that to Warrior which gets flat threat scaling from AP and druid’s that scale its flat threat through crits, but doesn’t necessarily get more damage out of AP.
It doesn’t matter if we can or not. Warriors are crushing immune out the gate, Druids don’t need to be crushing immune due to their stamina/armor scaling. Paladin has no way to get crushing immune and it does not have the stamina/armor scaling of a Druid to make it a non-issue. Why would you bring a tank that takes more damage than their counterparts, has a gutted tank kit that doesn’t even have half the utility druids and warriors get, no actual taunt and zero range pull capabilities?
Because judgement is 10y and 10y is far inside body pull distance in end-game dungeons/raids.
Stop pretending this is fine, it is not fine. They took the Druid and Warrior which were already good tanks in Classic and supercharged them. Then they took Paladin and gave it the bare minimum to tank with some hybrid tax nonsense that “yeah well you can heal and you have 4 buffs!!!”. Great, Druids have 3 vital raid buffs and they get to heal too or DPS at their leisure and they get to have the best threat and they get to have some of the strongest cooldowns and they get to have active mitigation that’s worth a damn. I mean have you seen their capstone talent?
you dont need to add more damage to ge more threat, if they wanted they could just make RF do 150% isted of 90% and add even more to the Iron creed talent. And as i sad before we dont know if crushing immunity will be needed at all. most of classic and aniversary was played with no crushing immunity.
Im not saying paladin is fine as they are atm on the beta but you are dooming so hard in all posts about tanking or the paladin class in general. Sure they have problems but blizzard are not done with all the classes yet, and even if they are for the moment done stuff can still be changed later on in the live game. This is not like the last times with classic, this will be an active developed and balance game.
Balancing and Tweaks does not fix a spec that’s missing vital components to bring them up to parity with the other two tanks. There’s no amount of balance and tweaks that’s going to fix not having a taunt, not having a range pull, not having more than 1 defensive, only having 1 active mitigation that requires you to hold back on using the ability therefore losing threat.
What you can balance and tweak is making it possible to reach crushing immunity, but Holy Shield is still inferior to anything a Warrior or Druid brings as it can’t even do it’s full damage on a standard boss.
They are not going to add things to classes once the game launch. They’ve been quite clear on that. This is the only damn time we have to get Paladin into a functional state in which it has just some pros over warriors/druids.
Consecreation is supposed to amplify your threat, not be the defining spell your class uses.
get a shield spike.
use retribution aura.
learn to tab-target swap.
use holy strike for threat spiking.
use seal of fury and judgement of fury to catch mobs that stray from your threat table.
use righteous fury (back to 90% btw).
use salvation on your party (30% threat reduction).
you have more than enough tools to tank.
you don’t even need to be protection spec to do it.
you can even spec into prot, get reckoning, use a 2H and tank very effectively by spamming /sit and intentionally taking crit damage to spit out 4-5 hits in a single swing WITH seal procs attached.
put on a shield and crits + blocks gives you reck stacks.
invite a druid or a warlock and ask for thorns/fire shield.
like, what more do you want?
listen, paladin andies, you main this class, and if i can master tanking as a newbie using this class, then so can you.
Giggle. Holy Strike for threat spiking. Great joke tho, that.. 100 threat is going to go places I tell you, let me just. Oh right, Revenge does 450 and it on 5s cd vs 10s of Holy Strike and instantly rips threat back.
we have judgment that is a bit or range and exorsist on undeads when we can. but sure we dont have a range pulling ability like warrior or druid but do we need one? in raids its always bin hunters pulling in classic and in dungeons its rarely used.
Oh, you’re gonna lie to me?
ok, have some AI slop.
No, not even close in the current beta. Here’s the math:
At level 30 (current beta cap):
Component
Damage
Revenge Rank 2 base
31–37
+ Improved Revenge 3/3 (+60%)
~50–59
+ AP scaling (25% of AP)
+25–40 (with ~100–160 AP from gear/buffs)
Total
~75–100
That’s roughly 1/5th of the way to 450.
Why it can’t get there:
Revenge scales with only 25% of Attack Power (confirmed via player testing on the Blizzard forums — a new change from Classic, where it had zero AP scaling).
At level 30 you only have 21 talent points, so you can grab Improved Revenge 3/3 but Bastion (5/5, +10% all damage with shield) is too deep in the tree to reach.
There are no items or consumables in the beta that add flat damage to Revenge or multiply its damage beyond those two sources.
Even at level 60 (Rank 6, 138–168 base), stacking Improved Revenge +60%, Bastion +10%, and ~500 AP × 25% = 125, you’d land around ~350–420 — still short of 450. So the short answer is no, nothing in the beta (or even the full level 60 tree) gets Revenge anywhere near 450.
Wow, can’t even get damage formula’s right. That’s wild. Does not add the flat threat either nor understands that it gets AP scaling too. That’s even wilder. I do love me some stupid in the afternoon that uses the Classic, TBC and WotLK formulas.
Here, let me burst your bubble a little bit, because man are you behind.
https ://imgur.com/a/yfZuJv3
That’s with 220 AP by the way.
Now, please leave this debate to the adults that have actually tested all of this. Thoroughly. For reference, the flat threat of Revenge Rank 2 is around 90-100, there’s a bit of uncertainty in it.
The formulas look like:
Damage = (base + (AP * 0.12)) * 1,6
Flat threat = (base + (AP * 0,25)
Total Threat = (Damage * Flat Threat) * 1,495
what i do works because i have no issues tanking as paladin.
what you do doesn’t, and you are complaining about tanking as paladin.
clearly i am in the wrong because your scuffed dps test on a spider says so, which you dare throw at me after claiming revenge does a whopping 450 threat per cast while also foregoing the added auto attack threat AND the fact that the screenshot you posted clearly shows 438, which is 12 points off the stated 450.
alright, keep lying and crying then.
P.S if the best you can manage is spiking 100 threat out of your holy strike, you are either grey geared or not using your righteous fury.
i dunno what to tell you man, but your holy strike should be doing 100 DAMAGE which would cause it to spike for 190 THREAT.
did you not learn how to cast salvation yet?
does your party members not use threat reduction talents?
under the right circumstances, which is assuming you actually use your damn tools and don’t group with min/maxing goons who don’t care about threat, a dps party member should do 40 points of threat per 100 damage to your 190 points of threat per 100 holy damage.
let me guess; you are using a 10 dps caster 1h weapon with less than 2 seconds attack speed and trash tier top-end damage, right?
that’s your issue?
Problem is the identity of a paladin as a spell casting tank not scaling anything from spell damage gear (and spell damage plate gear that is any/much better than what we now had in beta is scarce/barely existing) meaning we wont have much + spell damage to help with anything at 60.
That again forces us to go the warrior route with warrior meant ap/str/stam gear and we are left with a less than warrior class with useless spells & abilities.
Consecration is not just tanks, its also a great way for retribution to get some extra damage in.
Look at the pvp tournament, every single paladin went full strength/ap gear set.
Is that what we want the paladins to do? Or should they let the paladins have the identity of spell damage melee class?