Constructive Feedback: Dragonflight FERAL DRUID Talent Tree

My background

  • I am mostly PvP player, but I do also a lot of collecting. I am very interested in various diverse design playstyle and I like this about games in general. While I mostly PvP I judge this from how it feels and not only for PvP viability. That said, it is my background so I share it so you know.

Overall Feeling

Too much prunning

  • You have to invest a lot to get back what you had and was core to your playstyle, so you don’t have enough to get back even some utility you’d wish to have.
  • Either prunning went overboard or we need more talent points.

Too many 3 point talents.

  • If talent trees have shown something, they have shown how bad it feels to have too many mandatory 3 point talents (that block a way to something else you want to pick or are large contribution to player’s output).

Too strict pathing

  • For example in PvP for Feral there are 2 main things to watch out when dealing with Feral. Feral Frenzy and Sickle of the Lion (Tier Set). Sickle disappears in Dragonflight. To get Feral Frenzy there’s literally only one route. At no point in that route do you have choice. You have to pick exact 13 talents (waste more than third of points) to get basically mandatory ability.
  • In other trees (like Shaman) there are much more interconnections. Feral tree is too disconnected. And it feels bad.
  • Having to pick ability you’ll never press just in order to get different ability you want feels super bad. I thought the reason for prunning spellbook and putting it into talent trees is that we can avoid abilities we don’t use. But instead I lose abilities I used (Hibernate) and gain ability I’ll never use as it’s AOE (Primal Wrath).

Too much cooldown reliance

  • (Convoke / Incarnation, Berserks). Those are large cooldowns that could be reduced by a lot as well as reducing their power. Convoke should be (if talented) 1 min CD. Not for power reasons, but for fun reasons.
  • I like that Conflux of Elements is gone (buffs Convoke) - player shouldn’t be that much stronger during cooldowns, it makes the playstyle outside of cooldowns boring.

Bad theme

  • Adaptive Swarm feel thematically bad - Deathly themed DoT for Natural based class that shifts into Cat Form? Doesn’t feel fitting.

Class Tree

  • Nurturing Instincts (3/3) - should get reduced to 1/1 point talent or 2/2 point talent and change its effect. It feels bad to have to pick this, just to pick Cyclone. If you want to get Cyclone as Feral, it costs too much.
  • Ironfur (1/1) and Thick Hide (3/3) should swap places. Also you should be able to pick Thick Hide if you went the guardian druid route (through Frenzied Regeneration and Improved Barkskin).
  • Swipe (1) - it shouldn’t be mandatory on route for Interrupt… Interrupt interrupts only single target, so why should it be blocked off by AoE ability? As Feral I need interrupt for PvP, that’s mandatory, but I will never press Swipe again. Why should I waste points getting something I want to avoid just to pick something I had? That is against player’s agency and feels more like prunning and prunning of the abilities I wanted, while I am stuck with abilities I do not want (Swipe, Ironfur).
  • Killer Instincts (3/3) should be reduced to 2/2 and probably even changed. It’s very boring effect that feels it’s been put in place just to waste point if healer wants to get interrupt.
  • Soothe and Hibernate should be either made baseline or put to more reachable places. For Feral picking Hibernate is basically unthinkable as you have to go through spell casts you’ll never press.
  • There should be more ways how to access Stampeding Roar rather than mandatory Soothe… these two abilites are thematically completely different and some people want to avoid Soothe alltogether, but get speed increase anyway.

Feral Tree

First section

  • Improved Tiger’s Fury (3/3) and Max Energy (3/3) should be both made to 2/2 and either moved to better spot (allowing more flexibility) OR lead to (lines connecting) to something else.
  • Rake Stealth Bonus (2/2) should either be baseline or 1/1
  • Shred Bleed Bonus (2/2) should either be baseline or 1/1

Second section

  • Berserk isn’t particulary strong cooldown and should probably be only one talent point combining all 3 effects. It’d also be fun to pick then choice node of Improved Berserk that would decrease duration of Berserk as well as its cooldown or increase its duration. That would be fun way to improve the Berserk with a choice.
  • Sudden Ambush (3/3) feels very bad. For whole expansion people avoided this conduit. It’s not fun and not strong either. Spending there 3 points just to unblock pathing further feels incredibly bad. It should be changed to something fun and costing 1 or 2 points only.
  • Primal Wrath (1/1) should be moved to be avoidable, if player doesn’t wish to have it. It’s useless for single target fights, but it blocks path to strongest single target fight ability (Feral Frenzy).
  • Predatory Swiftness (1/1) also shouldn’t be mandatory to continue further. As PvPer, this ability is incredible for me, I will always pick it, but some people may wish to avoid it, as they may not like playing with it (off healing as Feral, for example).
  • Infected Wounds (1/1) as it stands now it’s incredibly weak. It should probably provide healing reduction (20% PvP, 40% PvE) and slow (50%). It should also not be mandatory for people wanting to pick Incarnation / Convoke the Spirits.

Third section

  • Eye of Fearful Symmetry (2/2) is in my opinion “okay” as 2-pointer, but it should not block the path to Incarn / Convoke. It should probably swap places with Soul of the Forest.
  • Feral Frenzy / Bloodtalons (Choice node)- there should be more than one path to get this talent. You literally have to pick 13 exact talents with no choice to get this as well as some that you’ll never use if it’s single target scenario, but are unavoidable.
  • Convoke the Spirits / Incarnation (Choice node) - there should be more choices of talents right above it, to get to this talent. Not only Eye of Fearful Symmetry (that kinda even has anti-synergy with Convoke, overcapping you on Combo Points).
  • Modal Cooldown Bonus (1/1) - should make Convoke 1 Minute CD (work as current legendary). Currently Convoke the Spirits is fun as you have it quite often, but if it’s 2 min CD it’s not influentional enough to your feeling of the playstyle. That said it’s great it doesn’t buff it’s damage like the conduit did, that wasn’t very fun (as it made damage outside of it way worse). For some people this spell is fun, but 2 minutes is too long to have fun with. If damage needs to be addressed, then let it be addressed, but as for fun, 2 minutes is too long and I’d rather play without it, than to have it only once per 2 minutes.
  • Adaptive Swarm (1/1) - should be thematically changed to fit more Feral theme (maybe melee ability that makes your bleeds tick faster for short period of time? something Wound? )
  • Unbridled Swarm (2/2) - something I’d always avoid, but I can see some people liking it. That said it should probably be 50% chance for 1 talent point. Not 2/2.

What different playstyles should talents offer to Feral

Bleed based Feral (Rake, Rip)

  • mantaining your Bleeds on target and having it be main strongest source of damage, more impactful than Ferocious Bite)
  • possibly some option that buffs DoTs but disallows them to be refreshed by Ferocious Bite (competing talent against Sabertooth)? - a person who wants to deal damage around DoTs probably wants to set them up (reapply them), and NOT have it be just a passive thing refreshed by Ferocious Bite - that’s anticlimactic
  • caring deeply about Feral Frenzy
  • basically similar to Assassination Rogue

Regular Convoke build

  • working around having once in a minute or so Convoke “go”/ damage
  • should be 1 min CD
  • vaguely similar to Subtlety Rogue

Direct damage build (Ferocious Bite build)

  • mantaining bleeds, but caring mostly about strong Ferocious Bite damage
  • caring possibly Eye of Fearful Symmetry, Berserk and Savage Roar as well as passives like Taste for Blood and Sabertooth.
  • possibly caring about Incarnation
  • similar to Outlaw Rogue (bar the Roll the Dice)

I spend a lot of time writing this and elaboritng it as well as condensing it, to be more readable. Hopefully it wasn’t wasted.

What’s your opinion? Do you share mine?

13 Likes

Hi Whisperer,

Thank you for taking the time to write your feedback.

My suggestion is that you copy/paste your post at the Dragonflight Alpha Feral thread here Feedback: Druids, just to make sure that the feedback hits the thread already created for this topic.

I cannot post there.

2 Likes

This is actually well put together. Probably gotta wait for DF beta so we can actually post into beta forum section…

3 Likes

If any of you wanted to re-post it (and possibly even edit it in any way you wish) to DF Feral forum post (and have access there) you can.

There’s https://hastebin.com/caqisosano.coffeescript the text with formatting if you wished to copy it. Basically with ### for headlines, **xxx** for bold text etc.

For me getting the feedback across is more important, while getting credit for it is absolutely irrelevant for me.
And I understand that if anybody wanted to repost it and disagrees with some points, they may want to edit them. You can.

I posted it in one feral discord, owner is collecting feral feedback and putting it together, feel free to join and check it out, even better since ur the owner of it (i made no edits only shared it)

2 Likes

This is very well formed feedback from a PvP standpoint. In the alpha forums on alpha testers can post. You can also try to poke somebody from the player council to post your feedback.
I really like your feedback. The main druid tree is completely on point. We do not have any choice in the main tree. To get something useful we need to go through set of abilities we do not ever use. The solution is to make those abilities usable (e.g., balance abilities for cat form). Why would not Starsurge be a ranged combo finisher in Fera? Or starfire a chance on hit if we have an option of using them. Or have a short HoTW buff whenever we shift ( or on 15 second cooldown) which would make shifting completely different experience.

As for Feral tree there is almost NO choice until we reach section 3. There is also a huge problem with Brutal slash and PvE. This should NOT replace Swipe this is obvious.

First section, I completely agree. The feedback on US forums is unanimously in this way.

Berserk is really weak. I love the idea, but build a Berserk would need to have all components of it significantly buffed.

Predatory swiftness is mandatory for PvP and it should either go really up in the tree, or it can stay here if they intend to change Bloodtalons to the previous version of applying it after Regrowth.

Sudden ambush should be removed. This is completely bad talent and no impact on DPS as it is.

Primal wrath should be avoidable and in the “AOE” part of the tree. In my vision we have 3 parts of the tree. Bleed and Bite build and in the middle the options of AoE. We should also have a second AoE finisher. Let us say bring back Hurricane? As an instant AoE damage part. Why would we have to have only single aspect of the Druid in cat form. Hurricane could spawn after 2 seconds and bring nature based damage to an AoE area. Here solved. Then we could choose a form of a AoE finisher… You know choice, and IF we need AoE finisher.

Infected wounds is super underpowered. It should be buffed any way possible. Also, it should be OPTIONAL. Half of PvE guys do not really want it.

Convoke needs to be 1 minute in order to be usefull in PvP. Modifier needs to reduce that cooldown.

Adaptive swarm could just be brought back to Insect swarm, and keep its effect.

Unbrideled swarm is also AoE based thing. Ok fine leave it, but make it be coming from the AoE and Bleed part of the tree… Hmm it is hard to explain so I will have to draw another tree for Feral, was intending to do so for a while.

As for different playstyles I really like your suggestions. Our abilities should interconnect somehow. If i focus on Bite that should be buffed by bleeds, but also the other way around.

2 Likes

I don’t think I can post on the druid feedback link as I do not have alpha but I’d like to add my support for what you have written as your points mirror my concerns.

Here are three points about the feral tree compared to all other specs so far released.

  1. Lack of choice:

With 33 Feral has the least nodes out of all the specs so far the average is about 38 nodes going up as high as 44. While each spec will be different this suggests there is room to add more passives and abilities when comparing feral to the other specs.

  1. Congested tree:

With 4 three point nodes feral has the most out of all specs. Asn rogue has 3, frost mage, unholy dk and blood dk have 2. What makes feral worse is that one needs to take at least one 3 point node in order to get through the tree, no other spec in the game requires this.

  1. Lack of branching paths:

Dead end nodes (i.e. non capstone nodes that do not lead further into the tree) take away from fluid progression. With 10 such nodes feral is the third highest with most specs having less than five. Sub rogue has also 10, holy priest has 11 and shadow priest have 12.

While feral does not seem to be the worst in this area it should be noted that sub has 44 talents to chose from compared to feral’s 33. Holy has only 36 nodes in total but they have 8 which lead to three options compared to feral which only has 3. Shadow has 5 nodes that lead to three options with 42 nodes in total to chose from. This means that feral has the worst available options to move down the tree of all the specs released so far.

I am also into pvp and agree with you on your points regarding the talents. It could be subjective as to what one needs to chose but I have posted this in order to give objective feedback on the choices and fluidity of the spec’s tree compared to the others so far released.

1 Like

Hi all, where is de devs of druid? Are fired or something?

1 Like

Actually “yes”.
The person in charge of Druid is getting replaced.

This feels special kinda bad, when you realize that you have to take like 6 talent points just to have Rake and Shred what you had baseline. And 4 talent points to get Tiger’s Fury what you had in baseline. Just to get 3 spells to what they used to be, THAT ARE CORE ROTATION ABILITIES, you lose THIRD of ALL of your points. FOR 3 spells.

3 Likes

NOTE: I’m not the original creator of this post, just forwarding it from reddit

Introduction

Dear future developer of the Druid class, especially Feral specialisation, I just must tell you in advance I love you (especially if you are the person behind the Rogue class talents). As true love needs to be proved I am doing this to help you with your difficult job of designing the talents of the Druid class and especially Feral to enable you to fulfil the expectations of the Feral Druid community in WoW. With love!

On the serious note, I wanted to summarize the feedback from the druid community regarding the, as the most of the WoW’s community agrees, the worst talent tree in Dragonflight. My background is in research (actually have a PhD on WoW in some other aspect), so I did the research thing – surveyed the related work. Also, I have been playing Druid exclusively as a main since vanilla. I have spent a ton of time doing this and not playing, but theorycrafting is also a form of play. I have read the majority of official forum threads, the big alpha forum response thread, reddit threads and custom trees, relevant YouTube videos, discussed some issues on Druid discord channels etc.

My post is divided into several parts:

  1. Identified problems and proposed solutions
  2. Proposed changes to the core abilities
  3. Proposed changes to the Druid class tree
  4. Proposed new Feral specialisation tree
Sources

Some of the YouTube videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHljdjau-Q8&ab_channel=MarcelianOnline
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UwnmYctoPQ&ab_channel=Pikabooirl
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhv9uM1AZTM&ab_channel=Snupy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdtwP8XE6Ns&ab_channel=Psybear_tv
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0ysmxzCUTw&ab_channel=Maximum

Discords:
Dreamgrove and CatTheory

1. Identified problems and proposed solutions.

The methodology for this was relatively simple I just went through the sources and counted how many times has a specific issue been mentioned. Here is the list of the most occurrent issues sorted by frequency of occurrence. I have created the naming, but every will be further explained.

The list of problems:

  1. Brutal Slash replacing Swipe
  2. Strict pathing (single routes, useless talents for a build must be taken, plus talents which need to be taken for one useful thing, talent placement in general, too few options and talents in general)
  3. Berserk (strength, cooldown)
  4. Infected wounds underpowered and mandatory
  5. Predatory Swiftness placement
  6. Survival Instincts placement
  7. Too many 3-point talents
  8. Specialisation specific buff for raids
  9. Cyclone, Soothe, Typhoon, and Hibernate hard to reach
  10. Energy reduction too many talents
  11. Sabertooth (philosophy of the talent)
  12. Sudden Ambush (too weak and to costly)
  13. Symbiosis (people want it back)
  14. Lack of clear bite/bleed builds
  15. Too much damage from Ferocious Bite
  16. AoE being poorly supported
  17. Bloodtalons placement
  18. Sickle of the Lion not being in the tree
  19. Furor usability for Feral druids
  20. Casting in forms
  21. Hearth of the wild options
  22. Too much pruning
  23. Convoke the spirits cooldown too long
  24. Adaptive swarm not fitting for the druid
  25. Disabled weaving of other specialisations
  26. Druidic “feel”, not pruned rogues or warriors
  27. Shifting of GCD
  28. Feral Frenzy placement
  29. Wanted abilities

The problems and solutions which are suggested by the community or what I have suggested are further explained in this section. The solutions are based mostly on the stuff that has already been in the druid abilities so no new excessive coding or design is needed.

  1. Brutal Slash
  • Problem: This is clearly the most significant issue with the tree. Brutal Slash is an AoE ability which is not usable properly in AoE situations because it disables Swipe. In the end this ability is basically used by PvP Feral druids, and as a good single target damage dealing ability, and also for triggering Bloodtalons. It’s most intuitive use and application are AoE situations in Raiding and Mythic+, but in current form it is completely unusable in that form of content because it spends the charges quickly, and the druid is left without a proper AoE spamable damage dealing ability.

  • Solution: The solution is simple and all agree upon it – simply make Brutal Slash not replace Swipe. This solution leads to applicability of Bloodtalons in AoE situations as the option of Trash, Brutal Slash, Shread, Brutal Slash, Brutal Slash → Primal Wrath is a logical option. Also, the druids maintain the ability of actually having a spamable AoE ability.

  1. Strict pathing
  • Problem: The tree has too few choices, there are routes that have to be taken, useless talents for specific types of content are mandatory, talent placement in general etc.

  • Solution: Solution for this is too complicated for a short paragraph, but basically increase the number of talents and have sections of a tree for certain type of gameplay and content. Take a talent layout from other classes which have been done better, for example rogues. I suggested my talent tree as a concept through which I try to illustrate the issues and how they can be solved.

  1. Berserk
  • Problem: People find a build a Berserk concept interesting, but wildly underpowered. Also, the placement of specific segments of Berserk are bad. The Avatar of Ashamane is considered wildly underpowered in terms of comparison with a competitor on the switch node Convoke the Spirits. The most interesting Berserk aspect – Sickle of the Lion is missing from the tree. Most feedback wants it back.

  • Solution: Better placement of specific parts of Berserk. Increasing the power of each of the aspects. Cooldown reduction. Sickle of the Lion added to Avatar of Ashamane.

  1. Infected Wounds underpowered and mandatory
  • Problem: As it name implies Infected Wounds are considered underpowered. Also, the positioning is really bad, as it is mandatory to obtain further talents, and Infected Wounds are really not useful for many types of content. There is also no way of AoE application of Infected Wounds.

  • Solution: Simply change the placement of the talent to be easily accessible, but not mandatory for any further talents. Also, make Trash apply it and increase the slow from 20% to higher value. In my talent tree I have made it apply a 40% slow.

  1. Predatory Swiftness placement
  • Problem: Predatory Swiftness is placed badly, as it is mandatory to obtain further talents, and this talent is really not needed for many forms of content, especially since the change of Bloodtalons.

  • Solution: Change the placement to an easily accessible place, but not make it mandatory for throughput talents. This is needed as for example for Questiong and PvP combat this talent is crucial.

  1. Survival Instincts placement
  • Problem: Survival Instincts is placed badly, as it is mandatory to obtain further talents, and this talent is really not needed for many forms of content. In general, utility talents should not gatekeep throughput talents.

  • Solution: My proposed solution is part of a greater philosophy of sharing more utility abilities between specs, so I have placed Survival Instincts in the main Druid class tree.

  1. Too many 3-point talents
  • Problem: Tree point talents are not fun or needed. There is also too many of them.

  • Solution: Just remove the 3-point talents as it has been done with other specs. Condense them to two-point talents.

  1. Specialisation specific buff for raids
  • Problem: The raiding part of the Feral community fears that bringing any other Druid specialisation will render Feral not needed. They believe the Feral should have a raid specific unique buff. This has been done to Windwalker Monks so I also believe this needs to be done for druids.

  • Solution: It is simple, bring back the good old Leader of the Pack.

  1. Cyclone, Soothe, Typhoon, and Hibernate hard to reach
  • Problem: As it name implies these are hard to reach. Other then Cyclone Sooth and Hibernate are really niche abilities and not worth investing a lot of points into abilities which are scarcely useful for Feral druids. Also, Typhoon is really good for Guardian druids, and it is not that accessible to them, a notion I saw in several posts when I did the survey. Investing into those early Druid tree abilities is a complete issue for itself which is addressed via making those early abilities somehow useful for a Feral. More about this in the section related to the tree proposal.

  • Solution: Simply make them easier to reach by pushing them more up in the general Druid tree.

  1. Energy reduction too many talents
  • Problem: As the name suggests there are simply to many talents dedicated to this. Also, it relates to the 3-point talent problem

  • Solution: Reduce the number of talents for energy reduction. Also, place them in a way that people who want to invest in them easily can without making them mandatory for other talents.

  1. Sabertooth (philosophy of the talent)
  • Problem: Sabertooth as a talent ruins the gameplay for a bleed build. There is a whole section of people who have done really detailed explanations on this. On the other hand, this talent is heavily wanted by the people who want to play Ferocious Bite builds and PvP. Therefore, it is complicated.

  • Solution: Do not remove the talent but make its placement so deed in the Ferocious Bite build part of the tree, that bleed build focused Ferals can not obtain it without sacrificing too much power of the bleeds.

  1. Sudden Ambush (too weak and to costly)
  • Problem: As the name suggests, Sudden Ambush is not liked, and there is a feeling of it being too costly and weak. On the other hand, some druids say it is a really powerful conduit, but few have actually commented on this.

  • Solution: Related to 3-point talents, reduce the number of talents for this.

  1. Symbiosis (people want it back)
  • Problem: There is not one, but a lot of people have mentioned Symbiosis as the most fun spell the druid had in its kit.

  • Solution: Bring it back, and disable it in PvP if needed.

  1. Lack of clear bite/bleed builds
  • Problem: A lot of folks wants to have an option on whether they want to focus on Ferocious Bite gameplay (like it is now) or to focus on bleed builds. There is no clear sections of the tree for this.

  • Solution: Change of the tree overall and introduction of some new talents to support this. My suggestions regarding this are in the part of talent description.

  1. Too much damage from Ferocious Bite
  • Problem: As name suggests, some people really do not want that playstyle.

  • Solution: Offer a bleed build on one had, and make combo point generating abilities do more damage on the other hand.

  1. AoE being poorly supported
  • Problem: As the name suggests Ferals lack in the AoE department. This is heavily related to the Brutal Slash issue.

  • Solution: Same as for the Brutal Slash – make it not replace Swipe.

  1. Bloodtalons placement
  • Problem: Bloodtalons is placed in the section of the tree that does not allow other type of gameplay to access it.

  • Solution: Move it more to the centre of the tree.

  1. Sickle of the Lion not being in the tree
  • Problem: Best aspect of Berserk in Shadowlands is missing in the tree.

  • Solution: Already addressed via the change to Avatar of Ashamane. Just add it to that talent so it can fight with Convoke the Spirits in the burst section.

  1. Furor usability for Feral druids
  • Problem: The Druid class tree is made in a way that suggests that Furor is the “ending” talent for Feral druids (it being the most to the left). Sadly, Feral druids can not really use it much. The only use I can see is shifting to Bear, pressing Frenzied Regeneration and Maul + Mangle. Switching to cat and having several free abilities. There are several interesting videos of Moonkins using this talent interestingly. Switching to caster, and healing for more than 4 seconds is interesting, but I really do not see the application of it, as in PvP Ferals would rarely heal for more than 4 seconds, and mana was enough for that.

  • Solution: Make form switching more interesting and viable, but make it an option as many druids do not want that type of gameplay. For example, make it viable for a Feral to switch to Moonkin or Bear by retaining a part of power of a previous form. In that way Maul and Mangle after Cat form would do more damage, and spells cast in Cat form after Moonkin form would do the same. This is a difficult problem though so this is just something I came up with.

  1. Casting in forms
  • Problem: Switching forms to cast is very tasking for a feral, especially in PvP environment, and it feels very limiting.

  • Solution: Make majority of spells castable in forms, or at least via Predatory Swiftness. Simple solution via the old talent Claws of Shirvallah.

  1. Hearth of the Wild options
  • Problem: Hearth of the Wild has two options in Shadowlands, one as a talent and other as a legendary item. In the talent tree for Shadowlands there is only the talent version. Many have liked the Oath of the Elder Druid option to gain the effects of HoTW for a shorter while on a shorter cooldown.

  • Solution: Make the talent in the Druid class tree a switch between regular Hearth of the Wild and Oath of the Elder Druid legendary item which makes every shift with a 1 minute cooldown trigger Hearth of the Wild.

  1. Too much pruning
  • Problem: The community has the impression that Druid has lost abilities and accessibility to them instead of gaining it.

  • Solution: Make certain utility options easier to access. Give some “core” abilities from a specialisation to the class tree. For example, Tranquility from Restoration, Savage Insticts from Feral and Guardian and Force of Nature from Moonkin.

  1. Convoke the Spirits cooldown too long
  • Problem: Currently Convoke the Spirits with the legendary has a 1 minute cooldown. The talent which improves Convoke the Spirits in Dragonflight does not reduce the cooldown. The cooldown reduction is very important aspect of Convoke the Spirits viability for PvP combat. Also, it really feels good for every aspect of the gameplay. If people are investing in Convoke the Spirits heavily in talents they should have at least the ability as it is now in the Shadowlands.

  • Solution: Make the talent which improves Convoke the Spirits decrease the cooldown to 1 minute as well.

  1. Adaptive swarm not fitting for the Druid class
  • Problem: More of a cosmetic issue, but several times people have mentioned this ability as not fitting to the lore of the druid.

  • Solution: Just rename it to old Insect swarm and make it deal Nature type damage.

  1. Disabled weaving of other specialisations
  • Problem: Some aspect of the community really likes the weaving aspect of gameplay. For example, Restoration druids had Catweaving in PvP, which has been rendered significantly nerfed via the change of stun being Feral only in Dragonflight.

  • Solution: There need to be some changes to talents to enable form weaving, for example that switching to Moonkin or Bear is viable for damage dealing in some situations. Also, this needs to be NOT mandatory, as some part of the community really dislikes this type of gameplay. This can be related to Furor talent and its viability. Also, stun needs to return in basic form on Rake from stealth for all specialisations of Druid class. If we go back to Pounce being merged into Rake. Or return Pounce (which I do not like really.

  1. Druidic “feel”, not pruned rogues or warriors
  • Problem: Feral and Guardian druids feel like “pruned” version of Rogues and Warriors.

  • Solution: More Druid in each specialisation, related to weaving, having access to core abilities of other specialisations of the Druid class. Same solution as to too much pruning.

  1. Shifting of GCD
  • Problem: Several people have indicated that changing forms is very taxing in terms of gameplay.

  • Soltuon: Make the shifting of global cooldown. To make it not overpowered, add a cooldown on returning to previous form.

  1. Feral Frenzy placement
  • Problem: Feral Frenzy is a very interesting ability for different types of gameplay, yet it is placed on the very left of the tree.

  • Solution: Make it more accessible by putting it in the middle of the tree.

  1. Wanted abilities:
  • Problem: The following abilities are mentioned several times as wanted by feral community.
  1. Force of Nature

  2. Fairy Fire

  3. Displacer Beast

  4. Tranquillity

  • Solution: Just make them easy to obtain through the Druid class tree. This relates to the problem of the “Druidic” feel of the specialisation, and not being left as Rogues with less toolkit.
2. Proposed changes to the core abilities

The pool of the core abilities should increase so as to give a more druidic feel to the whole class, and make some talent choices meaningful, and not really mandatory,

Following abilities should be added to core:

  • Feral charge – this is a really iconic ability, and a large section of the Druid community takes it. You should probably have a statistic on the choice of talents, so you know this. Instead of this into the Druid class tree Displacer Beast should be returned. It could have the same effect as Night Fae Soulshape ability, so the balancing is not an issue here.

  • Moonkin Form – why is Moonkin form different from Feral and Guardian forms? There are also two talents form Moonkin form, one in class tree and other in specialisation tree.

3. Proposed changes to the Druid class tree

Using Talent Tree Manager (https://github.com/TobiasM95/WoW-Talent-Tree-Manager) I have created a new tree for the Druid class with minimal changes. In this section I will describe the changes and issues that they are related to. The proposed class tree is illustrated on the picture.

Also, if you want you can import it in TTM via this link: https://pastebin.com/WBf1DXNk

  • General reduction of 3-point talents. Somewhere to 1-point, and somewhere to 2-points.

  • Rake – It has been changed to include stun as baseline. This is related to the issue of weaving other forms, and a more druidic feel.

  • Hibernate – It has been made more accessible and moved to 2nd row, as it is a really niche ability, but sometimes useful in PvP. Related to issue of feeling pruned.

  • Force of Nature – made available instead of Moonkin Form. Related to the whole philosophy of more “druidic” feel is to make core abilities of specs more available to other specs, making the spec not pruned version of Rogue, and also usability of Feral in M+.

  • Survival Instincts – made available in the line of Guardian defensive abilities, and also linking to Thick Hide. This enables PvP Balance and Restoration druids to avoid investing heavily into abilities which are not usable to them to reach Thick Hide. Also, the whole philosophy of more “druidic” feel is to make core abilities of specs more available to other specs.

  • Typhoon – moving it up in the tree to make it more accessible to other specialisations (especially Guardians)

  • Displacer beast – replacing Feral Charge which is being made baseline. Related to more choices and more of a druidic feel of the whole class**.**

  • Symbiosis – being placed instead of Soothe as a central ability. Making several links from it enables easier navigation through the tree and taking more from parts which are more related to other specs. Related to issues of many people wanting it back.

  • Soothe – moved a bit to the right to accommodate for Symbiosis.

  • Mass Cyclone – to give Balance an escape. Ability similar to Mass Polymorph. Related to no issue, I had to have some fun in designing the tree :blush:

  • Power of the Shift - new talent in the left section. Changing form does not trigger global cooldown, but you can not return to your previous form for four seconds. Related to weaving of different forms and usability of Furor.

  • Tranquillity – added related to the whole philosophy of more “druidic” feel is to make core abilities of specs more available to other specs

  • Oath of the Elder Druid – added as choice with Hearth of the Wild. Related to the issue of different playstyles of Hearth of the Wild.

4. Proposed changes to the Feral specilisation tree

Using Talent Tree Manager (https://github.com/TobiasM95/WoW-Talent-Tree-Manager) I have created a new tree for the Feral class with significant changes. In this section I will describe the changes and issues that they are related to. The proposed specialisation tree is illustrated on the picture.

Also, if you want you can import it in TTM via this link: https://pastebin.com/13S57nM2

Because changes are so massive, I will first illustrate the philosophy of the tree through passing every section visually. Also, I have tried to use already existing spells everywhere (as existing in some point of WoW’s history). The talent tree is far from perfect, but the idea of it is to showcase how easy is to solve some of the issues, and just by using
already existing abilities. The sections of the tree are indicated on the next picture.


  1. First section Spell interaction. This section is heavily new.

The first talent is Claws of Shirvallah. Making it here really focuses on the integration of Feral druid with spells, but only if the player wants. This whole section can be avoided. Furthermore, player can go into Balance enhancing talents. Why? So as to if the Feral has to take Balance spells in the Druid class tree, this section makes it usable. Moonfire remains the same, Starsurge becomes a ranged finisher, which increases damage the further Feral is from the target (so it can never be better than Ferocious Bite, but adds an option of doing damage to certain Bosses when you can not be in melee). Last talent enables Starfires on proc of Moonfire damage in AoE situations. Here we have also Predatory Swiftness and a talent Shifted Power which enables retaining a part of the power of the previous form in the new form, which is related to weaving and viability of Furor as a talent.

Talents in this section.

  • Claws of Shirvallah

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions:

Druids can cast all spells in cat form. Additionally, all versatility is increased by 5%.

  • Predatory Swiftness

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions:

Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to make your next all nature spells instant, free, and castable in all forms. If Cyclone is cast through predatory Swiftness it gains a 1 minute cooldown.

  • Shifted power

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions:

When entering a shapeshift form, a portion of power of previous form is held in the new form for 4 seconds. Cat form - attack power, Bear form health and armor, moonkin form - spell power.

  • Lunar Inspiration

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions:

Moonfire is usable in Cat Form, costs 30 energy, and generates 1 combo points.

  • Moon’s Reach

Talent type: active

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions:

Starsurge is a finishing move in cat form. Damage done is based on attack power and distance from the target

  • Fire of the Stars

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

If Moonfire is active on multiple targets its periodic damage has a chance to summon a Starfire on the target. The damage of the Starfire is modified by attack power.


  1. The second section is Energy line.

This section is comprised of all talents related to energy saving and enhancing. They are also optional and easy to take or avoid. The talents here are all from the original tree and only changed in reducing a 3-point talent to a 2-point talent. The talents are:

  • Max Energy

Talent type: passive

Max points: 2 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions:

Your maximum Energy is increased by 30.

Your maximum Energy is increased by 60.

  • Omen of Clarity

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions:

Your auto attacks have a chance to cause a Clearcasting state, making your next Shred, Thrash, or Brutal Slash and Swipe cost no Energy.

  • Moment of Clarity

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions:

Omen of Clarity now triggers 50% more often, can accumulate up to (1u + 1) charges, and increases the damage of your next Shred, Thrash, or Brutal Slash and Swipe by 15%.

  • Cat’s Curiosity

Talent type: passive

Max points: 2 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

Clearcast abilities generate 15% of their Energy cost.

Clearcast abilities generate 30 % of their Energy cost.


  1. Third section is Bite or Bleed. In this section the player first chooses the playstyle wanted. First choice is between Ashamanes Rip / Open Wounds. Player either takes another Rip, or make Rip reduce the armour of the target, making direct damage done higher. Following that we got Savage Roar, and the talent which buffs Savage Roar in different ways, one for bleed damage and other as an opener for direct damage. The talents are:
  • Ashamanes Rip / Open Wounds

Talent type: choice

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions:

Your combo point generators against targets bleeding from your Rip have a 10% chance to awaken the Spirit of Ashamane, which inflicts a Shadowy duplicate of that Rip on the target.

The Fangs of Ashamane tear deep into your target, causing your attacks to ignore 15% of the target’s armor while Rip is active.

  • Savage Roar

Talent type: active

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions:

Finishing move that increases damage by 15% and energy regeneration rate by 10% while in Cat Form. Lasts longer per combo point: 1 point: 12 seconds, 2 points: 18 seconds, 3 points: 24 seconds, 4 points: 30 seconds, 5 points: 36 seconds

  • Silent Roar / Screaming roar

Talent type: choice

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:Savage Roar is now usable with 0 combo points for a 36 second duration, usable while in prowl.

Critical strikes of damage over time effects have a x% chance to increase the duration of Savage Raor.


  1. The fourth section is stealth line, which is basically just a higher throughput line, available to both bleed and bite path. The Berserk Jungle Stalker ends this line. The talents are:
  • Improved Prowl

Talent type: passive

Max points: 2 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions:

While stealthed, Rake will deal 30% increased damage.

While stealthed, Shred deals 30% increased damage, and has double the chance to critically strike.

While stealthed, Rake will deal 60% increased damage.

While stealthed, Shred deals 60% increased damage, and has double the chance to critically strike.

  • Sudden Ambush

Talent type: passive

Max points: 2 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions: Finishing moves have a 3% chance per combo point spent to make your next Rake or Shred deal damage as though you were stealthed.

Finishing moves have a 6% chance per combo point spent to make your next Rake or Shred deal damage as though you were stealthed.

  • Berserk Jungle Stalker

Talent type: active

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions: Go Berserk for 20 sec, causing Rake and Shred to deal damage as though you were stealthed, and allowing the use of Prowl once while in combat. Combines with other Berserk abilities.


  1. The fifth line is the bleed line. Taking the first talents in this line nerfs the Bite build severely by transferring a portion of the Ferocious Bite damage to a bleed. This gatekeeps the ability which makes beleed crits grant extra combo points which could be really useful for the bite build. Also, here is the Feral Frenzy so it is easy to access, and it leads to Circle which can be taken even with a Ferocious Bite build, for increased burst, but not so much the damage of bleeds. Lower part are just some optional talents which can make a bleed build easier, and also Infected Wounds which is an option. The talents in this part are:
  • Bleeding Bites

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions: Ferocious Bite deals x% less damage, but applies a bleed with two times the intensity of reduced damage. This bleed can stack.

  • The Wildshapers Clutch

Talent type: passive

Max points: 2 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions: Critical damage from your Bleeds have a 15% chance to trigger Primal Fury.

Critical damage from your Bleeds have a 30% chance to trigger Primal Fury.

  • Berserk Frenzy

Talent type: active

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions: Go Berserk for 20 sec, causing your combo point-generating abilities to bleed the target for an additional 150% of their damage over 8 sec. Combines with other Berserk abilities. Passive: Combo-point generating abilities reduce the cooldown of Berserk by 0.3 sec.

  • Circle of Life and Death

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions: Your damage over time effects deal their damage in 25% less time, and your healing over time effects in 15% less time.

  • Feral Frenzy

Talent type: active

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

Unleash a furious frenzy, clawing your target 5 times for [(7.5% of Attack power) * 5] Physical damage and an additional [5 * (15% of Attack power) * 6 / 2] Bleed damage over 6 sec.

  • Rip and Tear

Talent type: active

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

Instantly applies Rake and Rip to the target.

  • Infected Wounds

Talent type: active

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

Rake and trash causes an Infected Wound in the target, reducing the target’s movement speed by 20% for 12 sec.

  • Predator

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

The cooldown on Tiger’s Fury resets when a target dies with one of your Bleed effects active, and Tiger’s Fury lasts 5 additional seconds.

Parent talents: 32,

Child talents: 21, 29,


  1. The sixth line is the Ferocious Bite line. This line focuses on increasing damage with combo point generators and Ferocious Bite, but based on bleeds, so that the druid can not only spam Shred, Brutal Slash and Ferocious Bite. Sabertooth is placed deep in this line so it is not viable for the bleed build. The talents in this line are:
  • Improved Bleeds

Talent type: passive

Max points: 2 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

Shred and Swipe deal 20% increased damage against bleeding targets.

Shred and Swipe deal 20% increased damage against bleeding targets.

  • Taste for Blood

Talent type: passive

Max points: 2 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

Ferocious Bite deals 2% increased damage for each of your Bleeds on the target.

Ferocious Bite deals 4% increased damage for each of your Bleeds on the target.

  • Sabertooth

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

Ferocious Bite deals 20% increased damage and increases the duration of Rip on your target by 1 sec per combo point spent.

  • Iron Jaws

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

Ferocious Bite has a 8% chance per combo point to increase the damage of your next Maim by X per combo point.

  • Chunk of flesh

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

Ferocious bite heals the target for x% of the damage.

  • Improved Shred

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20

Descriptions:

Shred deals increased damage by x%


  1. The seventh section is AoE section. The idea of this section is to have AoE abilities and boosting talents in the same part of the tree (except of Starfire part), and to have Bloodtalons integrated with Brutal Slash (as a new ability). So Brutal Slash could be used in both single and AoE situations as a generator for Bloodtalons. Also, this makes Bloodtalons easier to access to any of the types of builds. It would be interesting to have Berserk Relenlesness somehow integrated into this, but I have had no inspiration. Talents here area:
  • Brutal Slash

Talent type: active

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions: Strikes all nearby enemies with a massive slash, inflicting (82.8% of Attack power) Physical damage. Deals reduced damage beyond 5 targets. Does not replace Swipe.

Awards 1 combo point.

  • Primal Wrath

Talent type: active

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

Finishing move that deals instant damage and applies Rip to all enemies within 8 yards. Lasts longer per combo point.

  • Scent of Blood

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

Each enemy hit by Thrash reduces the cost of Swipe by 3 Energy for the next 6 sec.

  • Bloodtalons

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

When you use 3 different combo point-generating abilities within 4 sec, the damage of your next 2 Rips or Ferocious Bites is increased by 30%.


  1. The last section is bear section. This section is again related to a more druidic feel inside the specialisation tree, and enabling survivability. They are based on a legendary which is used by Feral druids in Shadowlands, although it is intended for Guardian druids. This legendary enables, survive and burst gameplay in PvP.
  • Bear Necessities

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20

Descriptions:

When under the effect of loss of control barkskin instantly turns you to bear form.

  • The Natural Order’s Will

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20

Descriptions:

Barkskin reduces damage by an additional 10%. When it begins or ends in Bear Form, you gain Ironfur and Frenzied Regeneration.


The remaining talents are as follows:

  • Tiger’s Fury

Talent type: active

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 0

Descriptions:

Instantly restores 50 Energy, and increases the damage of all your attacks by 20% for their full duration. Lasts 10 sec.

  • Berserk Relentlessness

Talent type: active

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 8

Descriptions:

Go berserk for 20 sec, giving finishing moves a 20% chance per combo point spent to refund 2 combo point. Combines with other Berserk abilities.

  • Carnivorous Instinct

Talent type: passive

Max points: 2 - Points requirement: 20

Descriptions:

Tiger’s Fury’s damage bonus is increased by 3.0%.

Tiger’s Fury’s damage bonus is increased by 6.0%.

  • Eye of Fearful Symmetry

Talent type: passive

Max points: 2 - Points requirement: 20

Descriptions:

Tiger’s Fury causes your next 2 finishing moves to restore 2 combo points.

Tiger’s Fury causes your next 2 finishing moves to restore 2 combo points.

  • Insect Swarm

Talent type: active

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20

Descriptions:

Command a swarm that heals (157.5% of Spell power) or deals (150% of Spell power) Nature damage over 12 sec to a target, and increases the effectiveness of your periodic effects on them by 25%. Upon expiration, finds a new target, preferring to alternate between friend and foe up to 3 times.

  • Incarnation Avatar of Ashamane / Convoke the Spirits

Talent type: choice

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20

Descriptions:

An improved Cat Form that grants all of your known Berserk effects and reduces the Energy cost of all Cat Form abilities by 20%. Entering Berserk causes you to strike all nearby enemies, dealing Bleed damage over 10 sec. Deals reduced damage beyond 8 targets.

Lasts 30 sec. You may shapeshift in and out of this improved Cat Form for its duration.

Call upon the Night Fae for an eruption of energy, channeling a rapid flurry of 16 Druid spells and abilities over 4 sec.

You will cast Wild Growth, Swiftmend, Moonfire, Wrath, Regrowth, Rejuvenation, Rake, and Thrash on appropriate nearby targets, favoring your current shapeshift form.

  • Soul of the Forest

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20

Descriptions:

Your finishing moves grant 5 Energy per combo point spent and deal 5% increased damage.

  • Draught of Deep Focus / Apex Predator’s Craving

Talent type: choice

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20

Descriptions:

When Moonfire, Rake, Rip, or Rejuvenation are active on a single target, their effects are increased 40%.

Rip damage has a 4% chance to make your next Ferocious Bite free and deal the maximum damage.

  • Unbridled Swarm

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20

Descriptions:

Adaptive Swarm has a 60% chance to split into two Swarms each time it jumps.

  • Modal Cooldown Bonus (NYI)

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20

Descriptions:

Shifting out of Incarnation before it expires ends the effect and refunds a portion of its cooldown.||n||n[OR]||n||nConvoke the Spirits has an increased chance to use an exceptional spell or ability and its cooldown is reduced to 1 minute.

  • Leader of the Pack

Talent type: passive

Max points: 1 - Points requirement: 20

Descriptions:

While in Bear Form or Cat Form, increases critical strike chance of all party and raid members within 100 yards by 5%. Also causes your melee critical strikes to heal you for 3% of your health. This effect cannot occur more than once every 6 sec.

3 Likes

its interesting seeing your own ideas, taken by someone else, who then posts them and gets all the attention and credit. while you just have to look at it getting posted everywhere :frowning:

a lot of these ideas where things I made, and im usually fine with people using my ideas but OP could at least give me credit or something.

1 Like

I didn’t know! Just posting it on the alpha forums for visibility!

baseline with rip aswell and thrash shouldnt be a feral bleed as baselne , its our worst bleed

should be baseline since its a really good finisher for aoe

should be baseline since it was feral unique thing to do and its core of the spec , its been for years

is what ferals have been asking for, for years now , pve wise too nobody likes this ferocius bite simulator feral was not an assassination rogue back in mists , it was combination of bleeds and st together and bleeds were our strongest source of damage ferocious bite had sabertooth as baseline so when enemy had 20% health damage of your bite was increased + it refreshed rip.

as of convoke i have alpha you cant even press the damn button since it says “Wrong zone” same for adaptive swarm , you cant even use them … need to fix that bug before this goes live

i like what you listed but predatory swiftness and skull bash ingeneral should be baseline for feral

2 Likes

Hey mate it is my tree, we talked about it in the Feral Cat Theory :slight_smile: I forgot to add some of your suggestions, but I was running out of time as I am going to work next week so I wanted to warp it up. You did tons of help to me and I did link the discord in the original post <3 Hopefully they fix our beloved spec!

Hi mate sorry if I was a bit harsh, just felt like I did some more then most ppl on cat theory with your idea

Im goona make my own post with all 5 trees (4 specs 1 class), looking forward to your comment

Still looking for “why do you want symbiosis back” :joy:

Because Symbiosis is the most fun ability ever. Could you maybe post another invite for Cat Theory? I am finally on my regular PC and had only acceted invite on browser. Would like to add it in the app.

Check your reddit dm

I’m just a bit salty btw cause this week has been horrible and I jist let some anger out, sorry.

I don’t want to press Primal Wrath ever, so I am against it being baseline as well. It’s good in a form of talent, but not being mandatory.

they will fix this, i wouldnt worry about that, I am worried about deisgn issues

Single digit take. Why do you not want to press PW?