My background
- I am mostly PvP player, but I do also a lot of collecting. I am very interested in various diverse design playstyle and I like this about games in general. While I mostly PvP I judge this from how it feels and not only for PvP viability. That said, it is my background so I share it so you know.
- I’ve also read (and seen) a lot of feedback from other Paladins.
Overall Feeling
3 point talent nodes sucks
- having 3-point talent nodes feels incredibly bad and it should generally be removed from all the other trees that suffer from it
- thankfully there’s not too many 3-point talent nodes, but I think there shouldn’t be any at all
having an option to pick kick is great
- unlike Resto Druid it doesn’t feel totally inaccessible, although it is certainly costly
Lay on hands being mandatory suck
- Lay on Hands being a first must-have pick as Holy Paladin feels super bad. It’s a spell you cannot even use in arena (it’s disabled). Why should I be forced to pick a spell that I cannot use?
- the same goes for path to Blessing of Summer, that pre-requires talent that boosts Lay on Hands.
Blessing of Summer (Seasons) sucks
- it’s thematically weird… doesn’t fit Paladin theme at all, it was kinda okay in Shadowlands, due to connection to Shadowlands, but that excuse doesn’t hold anymore
- it’s also overly complicated and could be replaced with just one buff that doesn’t change after each use to different buff
- absolutely breaks immersion and feels lazy as simple copy paste without any care to thematics and class / spec feel
Avenging Wrath being split into multiple points sucks
- This is pretty much something the community unanimously agrees on
- There should be ONE talent in class tree that gives player Avenging Wrath.
- Cooldowns should be overly strong, so buffing it multiple times makes it unfun outside of the CD.
- Cooldown being very long makes it unfun for your class doesn’t matter for a long time, before it’s up again.
- 2 MIN CD Avenging Wrath (1/1) with possibly nerfed effect being one point in Class talent tree makes in my opinion the most sense. Mad Paragon is okay (see below) because it doesn’t make it stronger, but rather last longer. Effects that make it last longer or have lower cooldown ARE FUN. Effects that make it stronger are not. AW shouldn’t be in spec talents at all.
- If there is supposed to be another AW talent, have it be choice node of either increased duration (2 min CD 40 sec duration for example) OR reduced CD (1 min CD 20 sec duration). That would be very fun. Would it be too strong? Have the effect reduced baseline. Have it only buff healing and damage by 20% (and of course allow Hammer of Wrath during that window) and that’s it. Why not?
Paladin Tree
- There are couple of things that are bad, but I think generally it’s not too bad (unlike Druid tree, for example)
- Pathing is mostly okay, it’s just some talents that don’t really make sense, are strong, or unfun
First section
- This section could use bit more options and reduction of 2 point talents.
- Lay on Hands (1/1) (starting point) SHOULD NOT BE MANDATORY. It’s unusable in PvP (arenas) therefore shouldn’t be something that we need to pick. It should probably get replaced by something that is usable, so possibly Blessing of Sacrifice? Blessing of Protection?
- Seasoned Warhorse (2/2) suck. It’s too costly and too irrelevant. It would probably be better to have either cooldown reduction as a talent, or a talent that you cannot get crowd controlled (stun immunity etc.) while on the Divine Steed. Or just a talent that you cannot get rooted / slowed while on Divine Steed. Or a talent that makes you knockback enemies while on Divine Steed. Preferably 2 out of those 3 suggestions even, both as 1/1 talent nodes.
- Fist of Justice (2/2) it being 1 second per point is kinda costly and too small of a buff. I think it should be 2 seconds per point or rather 2 seconds in general and it being (1/1) talent node.
- Seal of Alacrity (1/1) should be replaced with something more interesting.
Second section
- Rebuke (1/1) feels awesome and well placed.
- Seal of Templar (1/1) sounds interesting, but it should not require Crusader Aura. It’d probably be best if it didn’t require any aura or at the very least Retribution Aura.
- Avenging Wrath (1/1) being multiple points in class tree and then in spec tree doesn’t feel very good. It being too strong feels then bad, because the class feels weak outside of the buff. It’s okay if it’s meant to be like a Demon Hunter (having Demonic talent) that can trigger it decently often without using the cooldown. But it’s not okay if it’s your class matter once per 2 minutes. It’s okay, warranted even, to have Avenging Wrath be a bit nerfed in my opinion. However that doesn’t mean increasing cooldown to 3 minutes, but rather effect being bit worse. And also there should be no other nodes buffing that cooldown - not in class tree and not in spec tree. The Mad Paragon is good, because it’s not just “make AW stronger” but rather make it last longer (which is fun, your class matters then bit longer).
- Seal of Reprisal (2/2) suck. It should probably be replaced by the Judgment effect (that makes Judgment increase your next damaging ability against target) - which is placed in different part of this tree. The effect of Seal of Reprisal is simply too strong and unfortunately absolutely irrelevant to Holy Paladin (doesn’t have Templar Verdict).
- Holy Aegis (2/2) and Obduracy (1/1) are boring bonuses.
- There could be somewhere a node that makes Judgment generate 1 (extra?) Holy Power. That would be fun option for Holy Paladin. It’s sad it doesn’t exist yet. I saw multiple other Paladins asking for such option.
- Golden Path (1/1) and Seal of Mercy (1/1) feel too weak. Consecration feels irrelevant now even when super-buffed.
Third section
-
Avenging Wrath (1/1) cooldown reduction (to reduce it to what it was) feels bad.
Interesting way how to buff it would be to have AW be 2 minutes (15 sec duration?) from the talent point above and here to have choice node of either increased duration (30/40 sec duration) or decreased cooldown (1 min CD). -
Blessing of Spellwarding (1/1) is great! Thanks for adding that to both Holy and Retribution. That is fun.
That said I think it would be simpler and smoother to have a choice node between Blessing of Spellwarding and Blessing of Protection. And have both of them be 3 min baseline. It could also move up a bit and replace the second rank of Avenging Wrath’s position. - Seal of Might (3/3) should be removed. 3 point talent nodes generally suck. Overly strong cooldowns also suck. It makes class very weak outside of those cooldown and feels like game outside of cooldowns is irrelevant and is just waiting for cooldowns.
- Of Dusk and Dawn (1/1) and Seal of Order (1/1) are unfun talents, that are going to be required if they stay the same and that people generally do not enjoy and try to avoid. It’s made of legendary effect that people avoided and it promotes bad playstyle of overcapping Holy Power. I think these should be replaced alltogether by something more interesting. Players really dislike these effects. Feedback on this is pretty much unanimous as well.
- Seal of the Crusader (3/3) is too costly.
- The Mad Paragon (1/1) effect is fun. Makes cooldown last longer therefore class relevant more often. It should probably be buffed to 1 sec or 1.5 sec however.
Holy Tree
- Pathing on this tree needs a lot of work. Some things just doesn’t make sense. It could use split between single-target and AoE healing. I’ll not be mentioning every single pathing error, but generally it feels good if the path fits. What feels bad is when single-target ability leads to AoE or vice versa. Or when some strange bonus blocks that might not be warranted blocks another thing that doesn’t have anything to do with it gameplay-wise.
- There is however not much single target fun healing.
- Some people loved Vanquisher’s Hammer and it’s gone. While it being deathly themed is definately an issue for Paladin, it could be baked (as an optional talent) to Paladin’s kit. Possibly as a Judgement (?) buff. When you use Judgment, your next Word of Glory triggers Light of Dawn at 25% effectivness. Something along those lines. It could be even relevant choice for single target if there were some other talent nodes that would make Light of Dawn put healing buff on target (increases Healing received from the Paladin by 10%) and of course kept the talent point that makes Light of Dawn be 40 yds. These all would be fun things that doesn’t make sense baseline, but definately make sense as talent being player’s choice.
First section
- Pathing: Bestow Faith being requiring Light of Dawn doesn’t make much sense. It requiring Saved by the Light also doesn’t make much sense.
- Beacon of Light could be a talent that would lead into Saved by the Light and Focal Light (currently 2/2 but should be 1/1 buffing it to 20% with single point instead) and not blocking path further.
Second section
- Radiant Onslaught (1/1) into Crusader’s Might (third section) make a lot of sense. They fit, that is good pathing.
- Empyreal Ward (1/1) pathing into Blessing of Summer doesn’t make sense at all. They don’t fit. Also talents buffing Lay on Hands should block path to something else that doesn’t buff Lay on Hands. That spells is NOT USABLE in Rated PvP. Spending talent point to do literally nothing just to get something else that does something feels bad.
- Divine Revelation being 3 point node doesn’t feel good. As mentioned 3 point nodes suck. I also noticed how people avoid it in general in their builds.
- Protection fo Tyr makes the cooldown stronger. While it’s good idea to notice how weak the cooldown is, making it stronger is an issue similar to AW, when class feels weak outside of it. I’d say make it reduce it’s cooldown to 2 min as a 1 point talent would be more fun.
- Echoing Blessing (1/1) is too weak and shouldn’t be mandatory (shouldn’t block path to something else, there should be other paths to that thing). I for one like this, but it needs serious buff, 5% isn’t noticable at all. It’s not permanent effect, but happens only during Blessings that do generally have long CDs. Blessing of Freedom doesn’t, but Speed increase by 5% isn’t really noticable at all anyway. I’d say it should be buffed to 10% or even 15%. Or maybe as 2 point node to 10% per point.
Third section
- Divine Toll making comeback is great. It fits thematically AND was fun. However it could be added to Class Tree instead. Possibly replacing Of Dusk and Dawn that people hate anyway. Both are actually 1 point talent nodes capstone that lead into a thing that buffs them.
- There could be (somewhere) Vanquisher’s Hammer playstyle as a semi-capstone. As I suggested before, there could be a talent that makes Judgment apply buff that makes your next Word of Glory trigger Light of Dawn at 25% effectivness.
Possibly leading to Light of Dawn leaving buff that increases healing received by the Paladin (another talent below). - Avenging Wrath shouldn’t be here. It should be only in Class Tree and shouldn’t make it overly strong cooldown that makes the difference feel like outside of it your gameplay is irrelevant.
- Awakening returning is fun. It’s fun to have more Avenging Wrath.
- Breaking Dawn returning is fun. But there could be a node below that makes it leave buff increasing Healing by X% (the second part of current Shadowbreaker’s Legendary). 10% or 15% sounds reasonable.
I spend a lot of time writing this and elaboritng it as well as condensing it, to be more readable. Hopefully it wasn’t wasted.
What’s your opinion? Do you share mine?
What do you think about my suggestion?
Below Breaking Dawn (1/1) talent in third section there could be 2 more new talents (split paths, left and right requiring Breaking Dawn). Those being old lost effects:
- Vanquisher Hammer’s (1/1) (passive effect). Using your Judgment spells makes your next Word of Glory trigger Light of Dawn at reduced effectivness (25-33%).
- Shadowbreaker (1/1) (passive effect) Targets healed by Light of Dawn takes X % increased healing for 8-10 sec.
Also the effect of Vanquisher’s Hammer might not make sense to always require 40 yards Light of Dawn, so there could be also an alternative path to lead to it. Possibly a new node that makes Judgment grant 1 Holy Power?
My build as of now:
https://www.wowhead.com/beta/talent-calc/paladin/holy/BOFFZBFBJQVQUGcUCQVNVVmAVSGBBEVAoBA
Currently due to issues I mentioned beforehand feels bit less fun than Shadowlands’ Holy Paladin.