Content specific Class/Spec - Buffs/Nerfs (Passive Abilities)

Gameplay Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
21

I’d rather see them provide utility to classes like warrior, who atm brings almost nothing to a group. Just buffing damage and having up to 50% disparity between the tanks just means that the low damage tank wont’ be picked and the dps/healer meta will just shift to make up for the lost utility.

I think it would be more fun with added utility options in the early parts of the class trees, and with all the systems and borrowed power we had over the years I see no reason to not give classes like warrior more group utility. If we can have Death Knights turn into blue faeries and blink around as a translucent horse, I think we can live with warriors having a bloodlust/CR and and perhaps something else with their shouts.

I don’t think homogenization is bad with the current game design. If Blizzard wants to have dungeons and affixes that requires all these things, then they should expand the toolkit for classes that gets left behind. Or they could balance the dungeons more where you don’t have 80% of mobs requiring interrupts and instead a better mix between mobs who cast stuff and those that simply melee the tank really hard, which is an area where prot warrior is great (or at least they used to be. I haven’t really played mine much the last few expansions).

If it was up to me I’d give all tanks a CR, because they are the least likely to die in most situations and it makes the most sense to give them the ability to CR. It’s not that hard to give it some class flavor to make it fit into the game.

Same goes for giving all healers Bloodlust.

For warriors specifically I’d maybe put some extra effect into the shouts.

  • Bitter immunity for example could work on up to 4 party members, and maybe also work on magic considering it has a 3 min CD.
  • Spear of Bastion could have a silence effect on it, or maybe have Disrupting Shout do it if you want the utility for tanks.

Just off the top of my head. I think it’s just one of these subjects where Blizzard are too stubborn to update specs to fit better into their current game design. Warrior are still stuck on “Me angry. Me smash” design.

1 Like
22

your suggestion requires new ability development which is harder than just adding some numbers. and it’s not a problem as i said warrior should be just defacto top phys dps (on par with rogues or higher) and tanks with great utility should deal the least damage. this will balance out things, and allow you to get lower damage dds but with better utility to compensate tanks lack of it (like ret palas or shamans or w/e).

btw important point i forgot to mention, when you lower the damage threat generation multiplier should be increased so the tanks don’t fight to hold the agro, thats important. but again it’s just adding a stat number.

23

Yeah it’s more work, but that shouldn’t be an excuse for the devs. Just slapping on some numbers and calling it a day is pretty lazy, and I don’t think it would solve the problem with uneven tank meta. It would simply change it.
I’m not against some tanks being ahead a bit on damage, which they are now anyway. I personally would find it more fun if extra utility was added for the specs that have very
little. Again, just my opinion. I have no issues with people preferring a different design.

24

wow already is badly designed game with too many buttons. i mean you should play then according classes which require you to press a lot different buttons, no point to turn every class in such. changing specs damage/damage reduction will change A LOT. all think about utility as long as you have enough damage. when the damage becomes an issues it’s an another matter.

25

You did not read me correctly.

In 2004 there were tanks and healers and dps. BUT, hybrid dps/healers did considerably less DPS/HPS than their pure-spec counterparts. And it was a total failure.

Not to mention buffs, racials and other things. ALL gave problems. All were homogenized as a result.

What you ask, is a mistake. Simply because it was tried before, and it failed.

Tell me. Why would it work now?

WHO cares about damage? As if that was a parameter that mattered in any way.

Technically the tank that does the most damage (by FAR) is BM monk. And BDK is slapping hard at the moment. But you don’t see them in the meta there right?

Speaking of BDK, technically it is THE BEST tank. But its not meta because the whole gimmik of BDK is healing back the hits he face-tanks. But what happens when those same hits start 1-shoting him? Cant heal when he is dead. That is why BDK has ALWAYS been #2 in the meta.

As for DPS, in S2 SP was meta. But not because it did the most damage. It was not even in the top 15 specs that did the most damage. It was taken because of its utility.

As you can see, class meta is not determined entirely by class balance. The meta is really this:

What classes have the best synergy/utility to tackle the DUNGEONS/RAID designed?

It has nothing to do with class balance. What you suggest is absurd. Stop insisting.

2 Likes
26

Speaking of BDK, technically it is THE BEST tank.

wut? tank is not only about surviving, best tank is the one who doesn’t die and can blast as much as possible and ofc as a bonus has good utility. pala and dh are viable now just because they don’t have problems with damage, if the damage was lower many would reconsider “whats the meta tank” even they would be playable and in some dungeons/comps good.

What classes have the best synergy/utility to tackle the DUNGEONS/RAID designed?

it can change very rapidly if suddenly some spec begins to pump like 20% more damage. or otherwise begins to deal notably less damage.

It has nothing to do with class balance. What you suggest is absurd. Stop insisting.

and you play an abstract entity and not a class? lol, you play stats and abilities. and stats offset everything if you have enough of them.

27

I mentioned the case of SP where it was consistently dealing less and less damage every week and was still meta.

Because… utility…

Am I talking to a wall or something? The main reason tanks are meta is because of their utility and how it synergizes with the dungeon pool.

Utility is not a “bonus”. Its the main thing. Damage and survivability are a “bonus”.

Thing is that we talk about tanks here, but same thing applies to DPS and Healers.

If you want an example: BM hunter currently SLAPS. Like a lot… But why is it that its not “meta”? (it is VERY popular though, but not meta).

Because it has 0 utility, 0 survivability. Compared to the alternatives that is.

So people PREFER to take some other dps that does less damage instead.

But what is all this mean? What point do I want to get across?

That your idea of giving utility to some specs but removing damage in exchange is dumb. What will happen is that the classes that have utility will instantly be meta, the ones that do not wont.

And that is not healthy for the game.

The best thing to do is either EVERYONE has the same utility, or NOBODY has it.

For example dispels: Every healer has a dispel. 8s CD too.
For example kicks: Every class has an interrupt. Some longer CD, some shorter. But everyone has one.

For example party buffs: Everyone has one. Including shaman if you consider totems.
For example mana regen for healers: Every healer has some method of recovering mana.

and so on… However… the utility that is NOT shared by everyone gives problems:

For example PI.
For example AUG.
For example BL/BR.

and specifically:

CCs and Dispels for the 2 new affixes. Some classes can, some others cant.

And it creates problems. Because if your class does not have the SPECIFIC utility that you need, you wont be played.

SO: TLDR in simple words: Damage is not relevant. Only Utility. And having SOME classes give some utility that is USEFUL (because you can have useless utility) and others that do not, is a massive problem.

THEREFORE: To improve the game you either give the same utility to everyone. OR, take it away from everyone. No in between. No utility/damage balance or formulas.

1 Like
28

it boils down exactly to what i wrote.

Utility <==> Damage/Stats

the more good utility class has the lower damage/stats should be. i am not against utility i am against everything at once. cause it devalues other spec/classes. they will never be equal but you can easily make them more viable etc.

your suggestion is just binary. yes/no. it’s not the right approach.

If you want an example: BM hunter currently SLAPS. Like a lot… But why is it that its not “meta”? (it is VERY popular though, but not meta).

Because it has 0 utility, 0 survivability. Compared to the alternatives that is.

he should be more tanky and deal bit more damage thats it. and favor will shift even more for him. thats whats the thread is about.

overall many classes are “balanced” but require some buffs especially for m+ the problem are classes like dh which can do almost everything and better i have no idea why they exist. but if they exist other spec should be buffed just by stats as well.

your statement what “utility is everything” is based on assumption what everyone has equal stats +/-

29

They where good because of their tier set, the tier set carried them the whole season tbh. This new tier set is thrash compared to the previous one.

30

How can I repeat this… NO…

That is NOT what we see in M+ and raid. And I can give you multiple examples, and if you were patient enough to read my post you would see multiple examples already shown.

Also you are comparing classes on their own. Forgetting that M+ is a team effort.

If you do something like what you say, you would get 2 categories: Support-ish and pure DPS. And you already have something like that right now with Aug evoker. Its aug evoker, DH for the raw dps (instead of BM because it has more utility than BM), and a 3rd one. Which normally is a class that bring BL, CR, or other buffs depending on the tank/healer comp. But not nececeraly raw DPS.

That is TODAY. You cant balance that with some classes having more utility than others, EVEN IF they do less dps. Its IMPOSSIBLE. I dont know why you cant see it, and I cant understand why Aug still has not taught you. And im even more baffled that Blizz Devs did not see it in Alpha already. Given the problems PI was generating.

Therefore because balancing is impossible, there are only 3 options: (A) leave things as they are (B) remove utility (C) homogenize utility.

And option B and C are binary, because any half way alternative is just equal to option (A).

31

U really dont know what u are talking about, ok warriors are not vdh or prot paladins but warrior tanks have THE best phisical mitigation of all tanks. So u want to boost them in damage to a real powerhouse, my answer no hell no. Why because that will also result in OP.

32

There is littarly no exodia comp this season tbh. All tanks are balanced at some way, vdh and protection pala’s are somewhat outliers but the others are not far off tbh. Maybe guardian but they had their time.

33

Disagree. CAN other tanks do the content? Yes they can.

Can DH and Pala literally carry you a key and make it significantly easier? Yes. Because : AoE silence.

Its far from Exodia comp levels of mandatory. But you have to agree with me that S3 has many dungeon pulls with 7 to 8 casters (each with dangerous nukes ans spaming ST bolts), and giving only 2 tanks tools to AoE silence that on a short CD makes the balance extremely fragile.

One small push, 1 small class rework and exodia all over again.

34

Nope there are not alot of dungeons with 5 - 8 casters in one group throne and thats just 1 group. Again u are exaggerating really also u are saying a mass silence is OP wich is not tbh. So yes every tank is somehow well balanced.

35

U really dont know what u are talking about, ok warriors are not vdh or prot paladins but warrior tanks have THE best phisical mitigation of all tanks. So u want to boost them in damage to a real powerhouse, my answer no hell no. Why because that will also result in OP.

no it won’t, thats the point lol.

who cares about warr mitigation if dudes do 31 keys with pala? i mean i would agree with you if only warr would allow you to tank such high keys and other tanks would fail. right now your point has no value. i mean there is just no place for warr tank where he is better. making him consistently deal more damage will create this niche (for example)
thats exactly what i wrote you are judging by the things on paper “WOW GREAT PHYS MITIGATION” in reality in m+ no one cares every other tank handles this without much problems if you are not a noob. and you need adjust balance according to meta how things really are. you have weak utility for current season? here you got your stats to compensate that lack.

Disagree. CAN other tanks do the content? Yes they can.

Can DH and Pala literally carry you a key and make it significantly easier? Yes. Because : AoE silence.

or tank deals x1.5-1.75 damage of the tank with silence utility and you kill this pull 1.2-1.25x times faster which saves some def cds etc and you survive it. if you oneshot everything there is no need for utility (exaggeration to make the point clear) there is a huge difference if you kill the pack fast or it takes long, you drain all your resources and begin to fail. (if the pull is intensive)

Nope there are not alot of dungeons with 5 - 8 casters in one group throne and thats just 1 group. Again u are exaggerating really also u are saying a mass silence is OP wich is not tbh. So yes every tank is somehow well balanced.

agree. most stuff is ccable/kickable by most comps

36

Prot war is only 1 keylevel behind. Worldwide number 21 is the first.
There’s no reason to create a niche with unbalancing his damage.

37

lol who said the balance is correct now? unreal xDD historically balance almost always was skewed and could be fixed but it took years or wasnt fixed at all.

There’s no reason to create a niche with unbalancing his damage.

is there a reason to create ppala/vdh? blizzard knows it better? wtf people are just unreal. my suggestion also includes the possibility to do spec specific nerf and not only buffs. so you could just nerf the “too good” specs and thats it. or buff others there is no much difference. (except it makes the ceiling lower which also not a bad thing)

38

OK. I could go pull by pull on each dungeon but I will spare the forums of a 3 page essay on that.

I will give you just 1 example: EB.

The room of the 1st boss of EB. In that room there is: 3x3 packs of casters. And a patrol of 2 casters. Total: 11 casters.

Normally the “PuG” route is take the patrol with the pants right before it. Then go each 3 caster pack 1 by 1. If tanks are good with CDs, then you can do patrol + 1 pack. And then 1 by 1. If you are pala tank or DH you can do patrol + 1 pack and 3x2 packs. So 2 pulls in total.

So technically, there is no mandatory 5-6 caster pull.

But if you are a really good tank, and a little bit coordinated with the party you can literally pull the whole room and stack it in the middle. AoE them down, stun them with cap totem, pop CDs and clear the whole room in 20s.

That saves you ~2 min. And can ONLY be executed by palas and DHs.

The question is: Why would you want do something like that? After all, for a 20 its not necessary. So why risk a 11 caster pack and go 3 by 3??

Well you said it yourself:

They are. Up to a point. In high keys turns out that most of the tanks are pala/dh. And that is not a coincidence.

I was specifically talking about high keys. Why? Because at <22 keys DPS, Utility, tanks and healers are pretty well balanced. You can go with any comp/class and comfortably time it as long as you execute the class and dungeon mechanics appropriately. As you have noted already.

But in higher keys, I as a healer notice the overall damage if a DH tanks vs. a Warrior/GDruid.

I checked your rio and I cant beleive it. Really.

When Aug does less dps than a 3rd DPS is mandatory because SURVIVABILITY. When Healers and DDs are deliberately farming tank trinkets for SURVIVABILITY. When you needed a PvP trinket for 1 boss in WM… SURVIVABILITY.

Surviving is the MOST important thing this season. And the best comps are those that are tankiest and/or can deliver the most DM possible AND do the most DPS.

And assuming 1.2x dps will change anything is delusional if survivability is what matters in high keys.

You would have to buff damage an exaggerated amount to make it competitive. And deep down you know its not reasonable to reach those exaggerations. It would mess balance in both low and high keys.

39

i am literally writing the whole thread what you just need to add dmg% + dmg red% to “not so good” specs to make them viable xDDD … they will survive stuff easier and deal more damage == profit. the easiest way to survive is just to have decent amount of dmg red%

re-read the first post kekw. unreal.

40

I did !

So your saying buff the under played classes in damage AND utility (il quote you on that):

Which is what Blizz is currently doing. So EVERYONE has utility (thats the option).

So where does this garbage come from them? :slight_smile:

I did read the post. It makes no sense.