Current M+ format is horrible for the game

[Seralya-kilrogg (Seralya)]

Many people here don’t seem to get the point. People don’t want easy dungeons and yeah you can just ignore the timer and run the dungeon at your own pace, but the thing is the timer is for the most part the only difficult part about Mythic+.

What people are talking about would be system were the dungeon gets harder in their own content instead of just a timed run. Really tough bosses with strong enemy packs in which you are almost expected to wipe a lot to get it right and that can last a long time to get through. So pretty much small 5 man raids that can keep scaling higher and higher.

I think you said that way better than I did. It’s ridiculous that these M+ dungeons are supposedly “hard” when players just finish them without any wipe. We need to switch the difficulty to something other than the timer because a timer is not suitable for all players.

[Bukachu-ravencrest]

Their current idea of a catch-up system does that already. Only takes a look at the proposed ilvl changes to WQ’s and emissary rewards to understand that normal BoD and anything below a M+7 hardly will be a part of the gear progression for the next 2 months until patch 8.2.

yeah.

even HC BoD isnt really a way to progress gear tbh, for the most part.
you get litearlly same ilvl as from HC boss, by simply doing 4 world quests and afking here and there.

very sad.

[Bukachu-ravencrest]

but the thing is the timer is for the most part the only difficult part about Mythic+.

yeah, wiping boss over a one mistake in a dungeon isnt “hard”. its all about the time lads!
timer means you gotta manage your cooldowns, manage lusts, dont die to every single add 47 times, do proper dps, do mechanics, pull big but not too big, etc, etc, etc, etc.

What people are talking about would be system were the dungeon gets harder in their own content

you mean when dungeons get new affixes and increased difficulty with each level? yeah, we already have that in game.

Really tough bosses with strong enemy packs in which you are almost expected to wipe a lot to get it right and that can last a long time to get through.

basically raids? why dont you go and raid, and progress there then? already got that content too.

[Seralya-kilrogg (Seralya)]

basically raids? why dont you go and raid, and progress there then? already got that content too.

1-Raids are not 5 mans. The logistic required to manage them is much harder.
2-We have 2 raids vs 10 dungeons.

So no, we don’t “already” have that content in the game. We don’t have any 5 man content that is centered around non-timed progression.

[Hínáta-kazzak (Hínáta)]

By that logic why don’t we have raid+ ? timed raids with caches at the end waiting for us?

[Bukachu-ravencrest]

1-Raids are not 5 mans.

oh so the issue is difference in player amount.

2-We have 2 raids vs 10 dungeons.

and you want more raids

yeah I think you opened the wrong thread, you should be asking for more raids instead or whatever you have in mind.
regardless, you havent cleared any raid at its full difficulty so maybe clear them first and them complain about variety.

[Madorin-malfurion (Madorin)]

timer means you gotta manage your cooldowns, manage lusts, dont die to every single add 47 times, do proper dps, do mechanics, pull big but not too big, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Sure it does. It’s also a rather lazy way of forcing that.

basically raids? why dont you go and raid, and progress there then? already got that content too.

Yeah and I could have even more content with such a system.

By that logic why don’t we have raid+ ? timed raids with caches at the end waiting for us?

Why not? That could also be fun if people wanted to do them.

[Madorin-malfurion (Madorin)]

Also I would add that the post is already been somewhat proven. T&E have been told by Blizzard that they reined back the mechanics of Mechagon so that players don’t avoids keys of it like they did in dungeons added late in legion.

[Bukachu-ravencrest]

Sure it does. It’s also a rather lazy way of forcing that.

only thing lazy is people who want to be spoonfed for rewards for putting close to no effort.

[Hiyetha-defias-brotherhood (Hiyetha)]

I actually found the old way fun too, with long dungeon crawls that took hours to finish if you managed it at all. Respawns meant once you were part way through the dungeon a wipe basically ended the run for you anyways so the difficulty was there.

I do think the Return to Kara style of dungeon is nice in this way, and I hope the new Mechagon mega dungeon will work similarly.

I don’t think they should remove M+, just have both alongside each other for multiple ways to gear up.

Longer untimed dungeons shouldn’t necessarily provide gear better than high M+, but it could provide mid level gear with interesting open world buffs, and could also provide profession recipes, gems, enchants etc. that could be used to further improve that M+ gear, making both pieces of content relevant for different needs. Just an idea, especially seeing as professions are pretty generic right now.

[Kazachka-lightbringer]

lazy way of forcing that.

Whats the non lazy way?
Care to share an example?

[Lynlia-silvermoon]

I think m+ having a timer is what makes m+s unique and different. Raids require executing and dealing with boss mechanics perfectly or decently enough(depending on the difficulty) while m+ require precise planing from the moment the key is inserted to the last boss or trash percentage. Take away the timer and m+ becomes simply the same boring dungeons or 5-man raids.

Both features require different skills. If you want to show off some parses or kill the boss at your own pase->raids are for you. If using all your utilities and tricks to race against the timer is your cup of tea->m+.

I rather wished m+ would stay the same way it is. Not destroy m+ and just add more “standard” dungeons or “5-man raids”. And besides…arent there other complaint posts about WoW lacking content? I doubt “removing m+” would solve the case. Lets keep the last choices we have.
“I rather have a choice between a bike and car. Than 1 exact car only with 5 different colors”.

[Hínáta-kazzak (Hínáta)]

A dungeon created solely for the purpose of exploring and experiencing over a long period of time, like BRD is a very cool idea.

But spamming BRD on +2, +3 all they way up to +25 or whichever plays can push certainly would leave a bad taste.

The current dungeons are based on the idea to speed through them, that’s why they aren’t that hard or unique because they focus on mastery rather than progression and experience.

If blizzard were to add a separate progression system with it’s own set of very long dungeons designed specifically for long adventures and hard challenging encounters, then I don’t think anyone would mind, infact people would probably welcome the idea.

But to change the current M+ to be nontimed just kills it’s purpose and lowers restrictions, it also kills all form of mastery and skill, since the mechanics never change no matter how high you go, The boss will have same abilities be it at +2 or +20, this will make it just a gear and time investment thing and that would probably suck.

[Madorin-malfurion (Madorin)]

only thing lazy is people who want to be spoonfed for rewards for putting close to no effort.

Good. We agree then?

I don’t think they should remove M+, just have both alongside each other for multiple ways to gear up.

They definitely could exist together. Either as different queues or just an extra reward for people that complete that in a certain time.

Whats the non lazy way?
Care to share an example?

You could put a cap on certain cds, have adds respawn after some time, have enemies get a varied range of abilities the higher you go in difficulty. Of you can’t completely force people to keep pushing and not wait out their cds in every scenario but I also don’t think that is a realistic scenario that is worth arguing about.

[Kazachka-lightbringer]

You could put a cap on certain cds,

handicaping my abilities? No!

have adds respawn after some time

hello reaping!

have enemies get a varied range of abilities the higher you go in difficulty

hello affixes!

I also don’t think that is a realistic scenario that is worth arguing about

Agreed, cause M+ without timer is too long too boring timesink.

Just my two cents:
To imagine less “lazy” implementation of performance evaluation:

If every mob enraged and the floor behind you turned into lava which slowly gets further and further to the end… it would demand the same level of competence to quickly run through the dungeon, but prohibited chill runs which take around an hour.

So bottom line - system isnt perfect - but currently BiS

[Bukachu-ravencrest]

I mean only way I see replacing timer is, making adds CC immune, and after you die you cant release/be ressed (only CR would work). and you can only release after entire group wipes

that’d still butcher M+ but not as bad as OPs idea is.

[Hínáta-kazzak (Hínáta)]

Limited deaths, let’s go baby <3

[Karanze-ravencrest (Karanze)]

imagine putting a timer on Mythic raids for each boss … if you don’t kill the boss in time then you don’t get to kill next boss!

That’s called an enrage timer sweety. They’ve been here since Vanilla.

As for removing the timer, I disagree heavily. The timer is put in place to purposely put you under pressure. Not only that, if it didn’t exist you’d simply bring CC classes and kill the packs 1 mob at a time. So fun.

Also, the fact that you get a chest just for completing the dungeon, despite depletion, is enough reward as it is.

[Madorin-malfurion (Madorin)]

hello reaping!

Not quite.

hello affixes!

Not quite. Was thinking more like the legendary enemies in diablo.

Not only that, if it didn’t exist you’d simply bring CC classes and kill the packs 1 mob at a time. So fun.

YES! It is! Give me back my heroic cata dungeons!

[Seralya-kilrogg (Seralya)]

1-Raids are not 5 mans.

oh so the issue is difference in player amount.

Yes it is in player number. Perhaps we should make dungeons 10 man or 20 man content for M+. Do you think they would enjoy the same success or play the same? If you do, well that would just reflect on your intelligence.