Delves and M+

Community General Discussion
1

So i have created a topic on this before but that was week 1 and now it seems that many have changed their mind about US VS Them scenario that i pointed out on week one

My original idea was to make Delves and M+ a seperate track (example. If you decide during season that your gear comes from Delves then that is your gear progression for the season only delves and then raid when you got the gear for it.

Same applies for M+ route why i say this is because we are back at the first issues of the season and that is M+ players crying about players choosing the easier non toxic path to get gear. But then sudently decide they gonna jump into M+ at a higher key without even trying the instances at m0

So sugestion 1 Make gearing a one path for the season for players (note i say gearing and not the cosmetic)

Sugestion 2 add a lock for players in M+ that they cant see/que up for groups that do M+ 5-6 etc before they have taken the instances at lower keys (note that i m strictly a delve person so idk much about m+ but these players jump into m+ high level to destroy the run of others in M+ but i see the issue people have with it as these players got the gear but not the experience)

Now i know also rating is a thing that is for M+ but it seems that this is still a issue so thats why i suguest nr 1 because it is nice and simple (yes it cuts away gear option for the m+ players but it makes it so that if they want to go that route then they gotta go that route from the getgo and not go Delves and then M+

This is sugestions and nothing more so people are free to say their sugestion to the problems we have as the players of M+ is demanding that the gear get lowered in delves so they dont have this issue. And that will only hurt delves and its intended audience.

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Convoluted, unnecessary and removes player choice and agency.

Better balancing would have fixed this. Delves were faceroll content for relatively high gear, M+ is comparatively very hard content that is currently unrewarding.

Fix the root cause?

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If ppl are letting delve geared players with 0 score into their m+ then thats their choice to do so. I see no reason to fix that.

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The sugestion people say is fix how high the gear goes and since people in M+ sees it as a problem then it is needed that we seperate the gearing path’s.

Better to do that then to punish one side of the players

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I would let T8 delves be as they are it’s ok.
I would just move crest and myth track into 8 or even 7 m+
that way it matches T8 delve diff and rewards

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  1. Remove M+ keys. They are unnecessary. Players shall be able to do any dungeons at any level that are unlocked. Keys only artificially limit player’s choice of dungeons and levels they can or want to do.

  2. M+ shall work like Torghast or Delves. Players unlock a dungeon’s M+ tier level by level. (You can only have access to +3 when you have completed +2 in time, etc.)

  3. Add LFD for M+. Players can only queue a dungeon +N if he has completed this dungeon on +(N-1) and meet the recommended item level.

18 Likes
7

any sugestion to move any loot around from Delves is directly dammaging the Delves though. the Crests we get are limited so if any gear loot/upgrade items gets moved then that again devalues Delves and gives reason to seperate the 2 gearing path’s

1 Like
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Delves will change in time, and we don’t know how high of an ilvl Blizzard will allow for players to obtain.

But restricting a line of gear due to a personal choice will not work in World of Warcraft as we know how the player base reacts.

People should have the right to choose what they want to do and how they want to do it, but then it’s up to others if they want to have that person in their group for that group related content. If they fail, then they fail, and they’ll learn from their mistakes.

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and that would be fine. If it werent for that a increasing % of players demands nerfing of Ilvl on delves because their player numbers lower in M+. Not that they care that a high% of the playerbase stopped raiding when M+ become a gearing option.

People should have the right to choose their path of gearing without the other players demanding any changes at all if Delves give hc raid level gear then let it. but we know the players have become so competetive and addicted to numbers that they will not back down when they sudently lose their chanse to flex their dammage muscles at others

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I think the root cause is that Gear is the only reward players think worthy of doing anything.
Players could be pushing M+ as high as they can achieve for fun, comradery, achievements, titles, rep or whatever. But they won’t.

So everything has to reward gear. And if it’s bad gear nobody does it. If it’s good gear raiders complain, then M+ complain that others are getting good gear.
If it’s really good gear only from that place then it’s forced content and a tedious chore.

I don’t know how we move away from this approach to the game or even if we can.

7 Likes
11

The majority of people who “demand” a reduction in ilvl from the items, which are gained from Delves because it negatively impacts their M+ run, are normally people who will never do high keys themselves and want to be carried through content by people with higher gear than themselves.

The thing is, with MMORPGs, is that you can never please everyone. If the game was the best in the world and no other game came close to the features, content, choices etc, there will always be a bunch of people who are always unhappy unless they’re the best in their option and others are below them or others who don’t want people to see what they’ve done/have and can be taken through the games content without having to put in any effort.

You have people who love instant gratification content and others who love the grind and things being difficult.

It’s extremely difficult for any developers to cater to everyone.

So I think at the end of the day, we will not see any changes made to delves, M+, raiding etc to impact the other side. They’ll just make it, so things flow smoothly and leave the choice as to who gets into what group/raid in the hands of the players.

Raiderio and such are there for people to use to gear check/attempts/bosses they’ve done, and warcraftlogs is there for people to check if those people are pulling their weight in their encounters.

6 Likes
12

No really need for adjustments to delves. The loottable is very limited and most BiS Items still drop in M+/Raid. Also delves are limited by keys. And cant say i get a lot of upgradestone for items with Champion Track. So at 4/8 is the end or take very long time when i dont do M+ to upgrade championgear.

Problem of M+ are toxic players with not reasonable expectation to other players, not good balanced Dungeons and bad class balancing when paladins or brewmaster gets rejected as tanks or the same happens with all heals when they are not restoshaman.

All other complaints are just demand for nerfs on other content because the people like it more than m+ and it affects my gameplay.

6 Likes
13

You dont understand what the M+ gearing problem is.

The true purpose of gear is to “soft” nerf content such that everyone has an impression of “progression” through content.

So in that spirit, you time gate it. By limiting how many crests you can farm every week, and by limiting myth track gear (max ilvl) to 1 slot per week. And many weeks nothing at all because its RNG.

With this in mind, the overal goal is for people to do a 5+ today, but in a copuple of weeks a 7+ because they have 10+ ilvl. And that gives them hope that some weeks later they will do a 10+. And many will. Same applies for Raids by the way.

(A) The REAL problem with M+ is the following :

In the example above, if the gear that allows a player to go from a 5+ to a 7+ is “farmed” at keys 9 and above… You can clearly see there is a problem here. People will stagnate in ilvl and stop having the impression of progression.

And because people stop having that impression of progression, they stop playing M+ and play something else. So the solution is to fix the item aquisition in M+.

(B) Then there is the real problem of cross mode compatibility. What made people farm M+ for gear was not the fact that it was easy. It’s the fact that it is repeatable. You dont need keys. You are not limited to a weekly lockout… ect…

So you either limit the amount of drops in M+, or, you prevent cross-mode compatibility by making items usable only in M+. Which one is better ? I dont know.

(C) Following the same spirit, Delves failed as well on this department. People got full champion gear on week 1. And now… well… you got nothing else to upgrade. Any Delve above an 8 will not be “soft nerfed”. Unless, Delve players choose to clear 9s and 10s in M+.

So as Dejarous said, fix the root problem. Not a super convoluted system that acheives nothing.

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14

We should never be locked into one path of gearing. That is the worst possible solution.

The whole point is that you have different avenues available to you.

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So having better gear shouldn’t be able to do easier the content that you supposed to do with lower ilvl ?

Is Delves that failed on this department or the average Joe with no Enchants~gems etc that think that is some Superman from Marvel Heroes ?

Currently there are 5 topics about mythic + with people complain in this forum .

You know that 4 of those people~players that created those topics are in the range of 605-614 ilvl without enchants and complain that M+ are hard .

So Uda would you pick up a player without a single enchant~gem in your 5-6-7 key ???

A look another topic where a Healer complain about shaman being overpower…checking his character…not a single enchant and has 5 completed mythic+ with the best being a 4…

Those are the average Joes that instead of fixing the problem …they complain .

The game isn’t Hard … Its the average Joe’s that makes the game hard .

1 Like
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You are appling your very narrow point of view to this.

There is no “average joe”. He dosent exist. What matters is a specific player. ME for example.

I am currently trying to get all keys timed in 10. The goal of gear is to soft-nerf the content such that I manage to do so bit by bit every week. So that after a month I have the impression that “I worked towards timing everthing on 10”.

That is ME. But Billy here to the left is doing the same thing with 5s and wants KSM. Dosent matter the level. Dosent matter the rio.

What matters is that over time, we all feel a sense of “improvement”. Of “progression”. Whatever that may be. M+, Delves, Raid, or PvP… its all the same.

And in my case, I WILL acheive my progression. Because I get Myth track vault and max level crests. For just for a while. Untill I reach +11/+12 boundary where most “pushers” outside the pro-scene are ping-ponging in.

And for lower keys as well. People will get hard-stuck on some key level. For the reasons I stated previously.

Overall, we ALL loose from this system.

Depends on the player. Full gold enchants at best are a +3% performance increase. It wont mean the difference between timing or briking a key. And when I play with people that dont have the “permanent” Hero track gear, I find it reasonable that they dont enchant at all, and if they do, its with cheap ones (given the prices right now).

If its hard for enough individual people (not the “average joe” that dosent exist), all that will be left of WoW is you, me, and the streamers. That is not a nice place to spend my afternoons in.

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17

its more then htat.

its effectively forcing you to raid mythic or you will fall behind gear curve and you eventually will never be getting into keys which would drop you mythic gear from GV

getting behind score / gear curve is beyond vicious this season

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18

Well i would have to disagree as i m totaly fine getting my full gear on one character and then move to the next char and get him geared. level next repeat. Seeing a end for a season is not always a bad thing but i can understand that others see this as bad. But then again if gearing for progression is your thing as a player then delves arent ment for you as the whole purpose of the delves is to give Casuals something easy to clear for some easy gear to easier fight stuff in the world which is where many of us actualy spend our time

So that the not intended Audience screams for gear to be nerfed is a big no for me because then they just want to punish others who hate m+ and when this issue becomes a problem over and over then we are better of locking season choise. Or that m+ just looks at rating and stops inviting people with low m+ rating.

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And i totaly agree with that i myself dont want anyone to be locked out

But with that sayid. When a m+ cryes and demands gear nerf from the Delves then it becomes a problem because they attack what others get as gear and while i see a few such forums on EU it is a high demand from M+ players in America… where they even ask for Delves to be Timed so it is more difficult

So when M+ players begin such things and says life is unfair. Well then seperate the path’s so people wont get upset. You make a meaning full choise for the season it is a few month’s of that season and blizz could always add a feature where you can regret your choise at a later time… like maybe 2-3 times where you can regret your choise idk.

But yeah my solution becomes to split the sides and make a Us vs Them scenario that way blizz dont even have to consider touching the gear path of any sides.

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If you had a propper gear progression, you could also do what you do with alts but with out alienating a chunk of the playerbase that does want some sort of “progression”.

The point of WoW is to give everyone something fun to do. It makes no sense to alienate a portion of the playerbase out of “principle”.

Maybe I might not have explained myself properly. Progression is not “gearing”.

Progression is : Doing delves. Doing M+. Doing Raids or PvP. Heck, even WQ … whatever… THAT is where the progression happens.

And gear simply nerfs all that so you have a “false sense of improvement”. If it makes sense now.

That is the purpose of gear.

I seriously dont like this statement. Because it implies things that are not true.

Basically: If the purpose of Delves is to give some easy thing for casuals to spend time in. Why SHOULD it give Hero gear to begin with ?

Think about it. We are in this mess of gearing tracks between Raids, M+ and Delves BECAUSE now its a 3-way system instead of a 2-way like it used to be. So it has become super complicated to balance out all that mess. Kind of like the “3 body problem” (google that)…

If the purpose of Delves is what you say it is. Then make it give only champion gear. DONE. And its a win-win. You get to keep your easy Delves. M+ gearing is fixed !

But of course… you dont want that do you ? And neither do I. So difficulty in Delves must remain. It CANNOT be an “easy thing” and symultaniously give Hero gear with out totally wrecking all other game modes.

Or how about give mode specific weapons and trinkets ? That give bonuses ONLY when you are in that game mode ?

That way, you can “soft-separate” gear from the modes, and we each have our own way of progressing. And you can even do radically diffrent things. Like (making it up) infinite AP system in M+, tiers with valor in Delves, and simply drops in Raids. Why not ?

2 Likes