Demon Hunter

Community General Discussion
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Ok, I’m expecting a lot of hate from DH mains but I think the Havoc spec needs a complete rework at this point…

This spec is beyond overpowered in every aspect of the game. They have some of the best mobility in the game, a mandatory group debuff, passive self healing, short CD strong defensive, incredible AoE which is tied to their single target abilities. It’s just ridiculous.

They are undeniably the best spec to run horrific visions solo, which will no doubt follow into Torghast in Shadowlands.

They are beyond broken in world content and world PvP. Easily soloing elite mobs meant for 4-5 players or even soloing 3-4 players themselves.

Raids and M+ they have a guaranteed spot due to the magic debuff, the strong AoE, and their self sustainability.

I just don’t think one spec should win no matter what situation they’re in.
Most other specs have their strengths and weaknesses which create a healthy balance.
Death knights and warlocks are tanky but reletively immobile.
Mages are mobile but have very little self healing etc etc.

It’s hard to say what to do but personally I would remove fel rush for something else to make them a little less mobile.
I’d also give them a few other abilities to add a little extra complexity to their rotation making it more rewarding if played well.
The self healing also needs to be reworked. As it’s based around leech, and they’re doing so much mindless single target & AoE they’re basically running around loaded up with permanently HoTs…

While demonic is a fun and interesting mechanic, allowing a spec to be in its major ‘CD’ 70% of the time is just bad game design. It snowballs due to the extra damage and of course, extra leech.

Anyway, rant over. Bring on the defenders but I honestly can’t remember a time when one spec was so mindlessly good at everything. Why would you play anything else?

Edit: completely forgot the dodge mechanic on blade dance. Theres no need for it. It’s just more passive survivability

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Healer spec

…

Thats bout it

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dont forget hey have a purge and a dispell what includes a reflect in pvp

either dh needs to get pruned to the ground like warrior

Or all classes are getting their old stuff back like super much

baseline intervene big ms crits stances disarm reflect like EVERYTHING baseline same for dk mage rogue

but since DH is not getting any new stuff for shadowlands and all other classes are i think its looking good :slight_smile:

and i never saw a dh not doing average dps

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Yeah completely forgot to mention purge and reverse magic.
Also wanted to bring up Rain from above now you mention PvP. There’s no way that ability should be a thing in its current iteration. I’m all for them having an anti-melee defensive by flying up, but it shouldn’t be doing anywhere near the damage it does.

One last point I forgot to bring up was how DH can abuse the corruption system somewhat. Every negative effect corruption has can be negated by their toolkit.
They can get out of the ring very efficiently and can heal up the majority of the damage it can do, making high corruption levels seem negligible.

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I was in Uldum doing the minor assault, I saw a 457 iLvL demonhunter, that Demonhunter probably had 70k dps with 2 buttons, he was melting the Titan Watcher Elite like it was an insect. He was 6 times faster than me with 2 buttons.

They really need nerfs.

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The problem is that Blizzard can’t nerf havoc because it’s their only spec for most players. Most DH players never even tank. Imagine playing a class with one spec that performs badly.

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Im so happy im only tank raids. I don’t even look at havoc anymore.

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But yes it’s obvious that the drew inspiration for DH from the Devil May Cry games, even with picking up orbs the same way.

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I bring the popcorn and you guys can bring me some salt

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Well affliction in legion was great single target and AOE, pretty mobile for a caster due to the number of instants, had insane self healing and was pretty easy to play (and alot easier in pvp). That was last expansion, and was and still is far better at cleave and particularly spread cleave (which meele basically cannot do at all). It was also extremely good at soloing world content (not that this is really much of an issue). As for PVP, affliction was at one point godly. I remember tanking the boss in AV with several alliance attacking me at the same time, and doing more than twice the dps of the next closest person. You could maintain 5 UAs and all your dots simply by pressing drain life once every few seconds, and with death’s embrace, enemy players died virtually instantly if they ever dipped below 30% (though I think this was nerfed pretty quickly to be fair). It was not that rare in random bgs to reach 20+ killing blows, top dps, have by far the highest healing of any dps, often beating healers, have no deaths yourself, and no, this wasnt queuing with a pocket healer.

So you dont have to go back very far to find a spec which was basically good at everything.

And Havoc cannot “easily” handle 5 man mobs solo. If you try to solo the elite nazjatar world quests at the appropriate ilevel for example, you are going to die. As for soloing 3-4 players in pvp, this is just a ridiculous statement. The only time I ever saw anyone reliably soloing 3-4 (or more) players in pvp was a bear druid in legion with the legendary cloak which healed you for 30% of nature and arcane damage dealt and the class hall world buff item which did massive nature damage as a thorns affect. A DH cannot outheal the dps of several players, even if it isnt CCed from 100 to 0, which is usually what happens when fighting 3-4 players on your own.

Thats not say the spec isnt strong relative to other specs, but honestly, the only real stand out feature is the self sustain. There are certainly other meele with great mobility, and with better defensives. Rogues have better mob control and much better utility for M+ (DH mob control and CC is not especially strong). Chaos brand is not mandatory in M+ at all, often mystic touch has far more value due to the prevalence of rogues. As for mandatory buffs, in competitive raids, lots of classes have mandatory buffs (mage, warrior, monk and priest) and other classes have mandatory utility features, like immunities and gateways. I would say the issue here is those specs which simply have nothing significant to offer, rather than excessive DH utility. The damage is also high, but not the highest. Its not out of line with most other dps, nor has it ever had truly outstanding dps in any damage profile, like unholy aoe, shadow cleave (and for much of this expansion and last expansion, just overall damage), fire burst, end of legion WW, or pre nerf subtlety single target focus dps in aoe fights. Its solid and consistent damage, but its not overpowered. Hence why people clearly arent just stacking havoc and raids and M+. You need 1 havoc for raids (and only because vengeance isnt popular), that’s it. Beyond that, they are good, but not so overpowered as to be at all necessary to stack.

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Havoc do not do 70k single target dps at that ilevel. Without consumables, and with raid buffs, i do 40-50k (depending on fight mechanics) single target sustained at a very similar ilevel. And its an easy class to play, but no its not 2 buttons. The basic dps rotation has 5 buttons, which is not usually low compared to other specs.

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I don’t even know why they have anti-magic tools. It was Death Knights that were created to shred mages~ not Demon Hunters :sob:

They should have only this fly-around mobility! Give back to me my theme :sob:

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You say that, but Demon Hunters already had manaburn in WC3, which later got appropriated by Priests in WoW.

In retrospect, we should probably be glad that Metamorphosis doesn’t turn DHs abilities into ranged ones.

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That would be actually fun :star_struck:

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I actually agree that havoc should get a rework but not because it’s so overpowered, but because it can be pretty boring to play. Its pretty much on the same level of brainded spec as Legion BM hunter.

There is no need for a complete rework to change that though. Legion Affliction warlock was pretty much the strongest spec in the game for every pve content almost from start to finish. Now they are one of the worst classes to do m+ with only because they lost their artifact weapon traits. It’s very possible that DH won’t be among the best classes in Shadowlands after we lose our overpowered azerite traits.

Plenty of classes can solo horrific visions, most likely it will be true in Shadowlands as well. Those people who want to get the most out of it are doing it/will do it in groups anyway, so that’s not really a reason for a rework.

Well, people prefer rogue a lot more in m+, and almost every other class have their valuable strengths in m+, and it’s not like the raids are full of DHs in Ny’alotha, the most i saw was 2 and people usually stack more ranged that also do more damage than DH. So, should they rework every single spec that is currently good? I don’t think so.

It’s a nice part of the class fantasy, so i wouldn’t remove it (also, some other classes have mobility increasing spells so i wouldn’t call it fair to take our mobility spell away while others keep theirs.), but i don’t think we need two charges of it tbh, so changing that to one would help.

Completely agree. Its undeniable that there is no way to make a mistake in our rotation, and that makes it boring compared to other classes. It’s also pretty unfair that we do this much damage with such a single rotation, while some other specs actually have to pay attention and they are not even close.

Legion Affliction Warlock was more broken, because it was on top even in raids, better dps in m+ and pretty much the same in everything else as currently DH is.

Why wouldn’t? Its not like people only play with havoc DHs, and it’s not the only strong spec in the game.

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I have another idea…

Instead of making every class garbage, how about we bring all classes to the same level of dh?

Just a thought.

Also, people tend to exaggerate. Dh is strong, but not that strong.

By the way, complaining about dh mobility… As a monk, like get real dude.

I’m all for buffs, but to everyone.

Also i don’t agree on the dh braindead spec, it’s not easier than most other specs, and it’s not the difficulty that makes the spec fun.

For me legion havoc dh, with demonic was really damn fun, sure you didn’t have a lot of buttons to press, but those few buttons did a lot of things.

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Like an sp now? :grin: Dogno in pvp, dogno in m+! dogno in wq and horiffic vision solo, average on rad bosses with adds, dogno in st fights.

DH is godmode everywhere except spread cleave fights. In arena insane mobility, insane sustain selfheal, insane burst, mana burn, two stuns, longest burst cd in the game, ranged kick, clone, rain from above is a thing, reflect, immunity baked in rotation, dispel, purge. And everything except meta, which is up all the time due to beam anyway, have short cd. Combine all of that with highrst sustain st damage and you get retardedly op class which should be nerfed asap, but for sone reason they still get overlooked by blizz.

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That’s my point though. Every class, for the most part had their own niche. When monk was introduced it was always designed as this hyper mobile class. but it has other weaknesses. DH has some of the best aspects from other classes all tied into one.

I somewhat agree with this but you risk making all world content trivial if every class is super mobile and tanky with decent AoE.

It’s not so much that, it’s just virtually impossible to mess up. compare that to say a feral druid where you are punished massively if you don’t play optimally.

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Havoc creates a great imbalance in PvP.

And not a damage imbalance, an effort/reward imbalance - which is far worse.
The spec only has like 12 buttons, yet each button does 5 different things at once. There’s nothing to manage, nothing no generate, nothing to keep track of : generate fury, spend it - two buttons.

You know how a Warrior can defend itself against a caster with Spell reflect? The caster can “counter” that by not casting.
Well, a Demon Hunter can retroactively punish a caster with a spell that reflects all harmful effect currently on the DH. That’s like casting Spell Reflect AFTER being hit, and there’s nothing you can do about it. It’s on a low cooldown, too. This talent is a big “fuck you” to Affliction warlocks especially.

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If every class is strong no one really is, but they still feel better to use, you balance content around it. It’s not a problem. Every class should have comparably strong toolkits and damage, but not identical, what i aim for is not perfect balance, it’s as close as possible while still retaining some form of uniqueness.

Also there can only be so many niches, dh has vertical and horizontal mobility, monk has the best horizontal mobility etc…

And i mean, most specs are like that, only a couple are punishing when you make even small mistakes, bleed feral is one of them, fire mage also, but aside from those 2 i can’t really think of many more, and that’s fine, it’s not about how hard it needs to be it’s about how fun it is to use. For example, i like fire mage, but i do not like bleed feral much, in the first patch of legion feral druid was extremely punishing even for the smallest mistake, but it was not a fun spec, it was slow and boring.

Dh has a big weakness though, roots and slows, especially roots.