So i did felt changes in dmg
Dk is worst melee in pvp
After 20% without reverting it in pvp means that blizzdevs want dk to be bad and unfun
So i gess reroll i did i had enogth of this hate ill make dk my alt for now see where it goes its just unplayable in pvp anymore
The only way i win in arena 50% of the time is chains ppl for death
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I’m being out DPSed by my prot pally partner on the regular. 
The irony is not flat dmg nerf, but survivability. Melee thats afraid other melees thats is not what actually i’m waiting from “Juggernaut” class. When i’m playing DK, i have “flashbacks” S1 Servantes streams, when he is run away thru pillars and kite everything and try to survive.
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Arena for me was basically kiting everything. I had to kite more than my hunter partner.
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This season gives me bfa s1 throwbacks . Just as pathetic with 0 dmg while literally being as squishy as a paper. It’s so bad.
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No one wants to make 2v2 or 3v3 with DK’s these days. So I started levelling my rogue. For me, being squishy or low dpser at arenas isn’t the problem. If we had 1v1 arenas I’ll still play DK. The biggest problem is, all other classes know DK isn’t good enough to make a rated group. Cause of it, I can’t find pre-made several hours. Also, my irl friends don’t want a rated group with my DK and tell me to make a new pvp character. After all, all of us started this game for only pvp and we want to have fun together. For now, this choice seems more logical.
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I’ve been having decent succes so far playing frost with ww monk. They just HAVE to revert the DS nerfs.
not sure what you guys are talking about. fdk damage in arena is very strong, especially when we’re cleaving or free tunneling single target. we have ridiculously strong cd’s against caster comps; ams, buffed amz, cadav pillar, spellwarding. we have burst healing from sanguination and sac pact, and death strike, while not great, gives decent on demand healing if you use it at the right time and have decent vers. aside from that we probably bring the most utility to an arena team, with grip, abom limb, spammable slows, roots, magic buff (nectrotic aura) cooldown slows (heartstop aura), anti magic zone, a ranged kick, and an aoe stun (with the frostwyrms legendary). I’m not saying frost doesn’t need a buff, but i dont get why people complain about this spec so much, nearly 2k in 3’s and its been pretty smooth sailing so far.
Sry arenamate says that we aren’t even in top 15 spec either in 3s or 2s. 11 udk in top 500. Numbers say itself how bad is dk atm. Yes walking dead comp is good but not because of dk, we enable ww.
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just because we aren’t the most popular spec doesn’t automatically make us bad. as I said I think we do need buffs but that doesn’t mean we aren’t a viable spec, it just means that other classes (as everyone clearly knows) are either broken or have a 1 shot mechanic. when those classes get fixed we’ll most likely be one of the strongest melee classes in pvp without a doubt. And twd literally revolves around the dk, the monk damage is strong because monks are currently overtuned, but without dk utility the comp would fall apart.
Viability is very subjective. You can take any spec and achieve glad rate if you will put enough effort. Is that enough to say that spec performs on high lvl or viable everywhere? Not necessarily. Dh was very good spec in bfa but had low representation. Why? dks have low representation atm and there are reasons. Again every spec is viable can achieve glad if you will put enough effort it in. If i asked you to choose to struggle or faceroll your way to glad which one would you choose? Its all about time and efforts. Clearly there are a reasons why class isn’t popular. Not being bad doesn’t mean being good automatically. And ww has better comps than walking dead.
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yes i agree, but you’re assuming that it’s a struggle to get high rating with a fdk. I think people try pvp with dk’s and see a bunch of inexperienced players complain that its bad and so give up before actually trying it out and playing it to its full potential; hence the lack of representation. the other main reason is that it doesn’t have a 1 shot mechanic in a meta in which the games last for a very short amount of time, which means that given the choice between playing for example a dk or a pally, the evident choice is paladin. this doesn’t mean that dk’s are bad, it just means that an easier class is better and so people will naturally choose the path of least resistance. not being good doesn’t automatically mean you’re bad
this mindset is sadly what has kept us like this, rock the boat, the situation we are in is not okay, period.
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here is my issue and this is meant as no offence to you, but you and many others that post statements like this have 0 pvp experience in arenas or bg’s. How are you qualified to say that fdk’s aren’t good when you have no relevant achievements in competitive pvp? This isnt just you, but if you look at the majority of players who post very negatively on this forum then you start to see this trend appear. AGAIN, I am saying that frost dk’s need a buff. but they aren’t as useless as people are making out, and I would seriously consider whether or not fdk’s are bad, or just the people playing them.
I am well aware of my nonexistant experience in rated high roller pvp, i live the pug life, with crippling communication errors due to Autism, playing the social game with randos that are often Fotm people and metaslaves wont even answer me when i whisper my details or apply for groups, i wont speak more about that because then we would be here for hours. But what i do have is some skirmish and random battleground experience, alongside some knowledge how the rated Arena because a man can watch vids and streamers, many will say i am no better than a LFR hero and they might have a point, but the insight gained from even skirmish arenas has some value.
now regarding just that, i get what you are saying, we are powerhouses VS casters, i have myself used dome of ancient shadow on a paladin that tunneled me, his burst was practially non existent. and i also get your point if you play well vs ARMS (thats gonna take some big plays) and WW monks… thing is the work and tricks needed to pull those encounters off is vastly higher than most classes in this game, anyone can see that, no need for a combatant or Duelist license to post, merely saying that we are in need of tuning and updating on many of our issues, core kit, even PvE but this is PvP we are discussing so i’ll leave that out.
i want you to find any other class with as many PvP only nerfs, or PvP talents as lacklustre or pigenholed as us, nevermind the double edged sword pvp talents with the downside being massive for the neglible benefit. The problem is the mindset in this, i see the posts spelling doom and gloom and the posters with experience saying “no, thats not correct, it’s kinda okay and bad depending on opponent”…and then it goes no further, the issue still exists because we argue among ourtselves, not to rock the boat or because we infact have some power…keyword here is some.
There are of course points to be made in either direction, as i said, one says we are fighting with fishing poles, another says we are the best melee because the player is experienced and plays with a strong class or comp, the answer is in the middle of this entire mess, compounding issues stacking ever since Mid Legion with heavy band aid nerfs etc etc… and again i urge people to highlight the issues we do have, even if we are in a meta with literal god classes walking the arena floor, skewering the mindset giving the impression that we cant do anything… we are not superbad, the opponent is just overtuned ( and not adjusted yet in some cases) adding more noise to the whole issue.
Bfa Arena stats also had very low Dk participation if i remember right, Frost super low as usual, might be some more once icecap corruption got rolling but i cant be sure about that, and the same stats surface now, to perform we need to be on our toes and play good, unlike many others, no?
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okay I will try to flesh out my thought process then in regards to frost, because I appreciate what you have just written and think there is a lot to be adressed. I would say my issue with skirm and regular bg players is that while they may have some knowledge of pvp, you will often play with bad players which means that your experience of the class is dimished as you can’t perform to your true potential as you are held back.
Dk’s, and frost dk’s especially, at the moment lean more towards being a utility class than an outright damage class. I know at lower mmr, matches tend to be dps races as the healer typically don’t have the game knowledge to survive huge amounts of burst, and so in that regard I can see how fdk’s may underperform, as we simply dont have as big bursts as other comps. However, with grip, spammable slows, roots (with deathchill), a ranged kick, abom limb, and anti magic zone, a good dk can very effectively control the map, be that peeling for the team, controlling the healer with kicks and grips, or damage mitigation. this is where the difference, I believe, between low ranked and high ranked players come in.
lets take the walking dead as an example. gates open, you rush in and grip the healer on top of the dps you’re attacking. follow that with a frostwyrms fury with the legendary to aoe stun. monk then follows that up with leg sweep, and you follow that up with blinding sleet. the healer can then follow that with their own stun (HoJ, bash, incap totem, priest fear etc). thats at least 11 seconds of cc when you take dr into account, and with at least 2 targets stacked up the ww will take them to church. although the monk does most of the damage here, you set up the whole thing using your classes utility but it requires some well timed use of cd’s and gameplay, hence why i think that some level of rated pvp is required to fully understand how this class is not terrible.
next you spoke about pvp talents. I’ve taken it upon myself to learn a lot of classes pvp talents, and I would say that frost dk has the one of, if not the most powerful set of pvp talents in the game. Heartstop aura is a disgustingly good passive that not only reduces the cooldown of huge abilities like wings or shadow blades, but also minor cooldowns like blink or shadowstep. when abilities like this have their cooldowns extended, the ability for teams to do set up burst play disappears, as cooldowns don’t come off cd as expected and at different times. necrotic aura is also very powerful as it is a flat 8% damage increase for casters. dont forget though that fdk abilities are mostly magical; obliterate (after the lvl 58 passive), howling blast, chillstreak, remorseless winter. therefore if nothing else, that pvp talent just straight up buffs our damage. As just mentioned, chill streak is insane. Take the example of twd as previously mentioned. when gripping in the healer and stunning, popping chillstreak will deal insane and unavoidable damage to multiple targets, and is buffed by both our mastery and necrotic aura. We then of course have the buffed amz, which, i promise you, will save your team from a rmp burst, as reducing a mages’ burst by 80% will effectively mitigate the teams burst damage.
people have also apparently forgot about dark simulacrum, which i genuinely believe is the most powerful ability in the game currently. with it, we can steal (aside from everything we can normally steal) mindgames from priests, mirrors of torment from mages, chain harvest from shamans, and ashen hallow from paladins.
I will concede, however that we need buffs. to play devils advocate, I will explain how i think fdk’s could get buffed. obliterates damage increased by 20% at max. I know people say that a 4k-5k crit is nothing compared to a 15k templars verdict, but honestly I believe you can’t compare the two. huge paladin templars verdicts come after using 3-4 cd’s that buff the next ability that spends holy power, and so they can’t sustain those big hits. fdk’s can comfortably hit a 4-5k obliterate crit every other global in burst, because of the way that the obliteration talent works. this means that we can deal 20-30k in 10 seconds through just obliterate, while still having chillstreak damage, rw damage, frostwyrms, damage, and either frost strike/howling blast damage in order to proc killing machine.
death strike also needs a slight buff, but nothing major. the thing with death strike is that it has to be used and timed right. using it when you are already low wont help because you need to have just taken substantial damage for it to kick in. if you want my advice, if you drop below 75% hp you should start using it, if nothing else just as a preemptive heal for incoming burst. I’ve seen heals up to 10k from death strike when used correctly, and seeing as frost strike is a useless ability you can just dump runic power into death strike and you really dont lose too much pressure.
aside from that, our defensives aren’t terrible. lichborn should never be used for the leech but instead as a cc immunity that allows you to deal continual pressure, or escape cc that might kill you.
i will also admit that gear and good stats play a very big role. Im sitting at about 21% vers currently which i can definitely feel is doing a lot for me, but when the season actually gets under way and it isnt just week two so people actually have good gear, it’ll become a lot better for everyone playing fdk.
very insightful and thoughtful post i must say, personally i can see how those pvp talents stack up with everything your teammate is doing, that is however the crux of the matter, utility and meddling is our role now apparently, alongside some respectable but slow burst, my experience with the pvp talents and such has mostly been from a solo experience, on their own heartstop aura is okayish, aswell as deathchill and the other’s, i still stand with my statement that on their own, compared to what other classes have at their disposal they are lacklustre, supporting a well co ordinated group or partner i can see working very well… and in that i see the issue again, the one i am trying to nail down.
On our own we have skills that are good for certain classes, but where we lack and dont have our teammate to support those weaknesses or take advantage of the hidden strenghts we bring to the table… personally i have used Dark sim in the past, lst time i checked it does not copy the spell in perfection, the only real damage i have gotten from it is copying greater pyroblast back in BFA, and that is because greater pyro is % based… any other spell that did flat damage did laiughable damage for some reason, not scaling or being copied, getting certain buffs or effects is useful that is true.
And i went of of a tangent, but in that very niche lies the problem i want to grab and cut out, In certain situations, when supported by a co ordinated teammate, often with voicecom communication, coupled with the right stats and -mandatory- PvP talents, we can pull our weight to a great to mediocre degree, it is the majority of our time outside those situations and setups, when we dont have that teammate ro both cover our weaksides or take advantage of the openings or disruptions we can cause that get people so frustrated, because in those situations we are severely lacking.
And while i must admit that the masses are stupid, trust me, im but one faceless gamer that just wants to play and perform to an acceptable and semi focused level, i also think that the way some classes are weighted and placed in PvP by blizz E-sports arena balance leaves alot to be desired, now i am not saying i have a better way to balance things completely, mere thoughts and observations in my 15 years of playing this game.
When the baseline that is frost DK has to be shored up by crutches such as mandatory playstyles and much reliance on certain talents/pvp(hello BoS) talents aswell a competent treammate to even push into the mid leagues of rated arena something is not right, even though people can make it work, like you for example.
This problem has haunted the Death knight for some time now, there is so much within this class that is overlooked and not given proper thought, Blood mastery is one thing, although blood did get some -very- much needed talent updating, aswell as UH, frost has not gotten much since Legion in terms of Updating talents and such. and in PvP this is very apparent, as i just mentioned above, we can perform, that i know, withing a very pigeonholed setup that even when it exists, does not make us any more represented in the stats, despite some people playing it with good skill, plus PvP is a chaotic enviorment while PvE is not, showing weaknesses alot more since you cant plan around what you are bad at.
Closing of i will also agree that once the gear rises things might change for the better, whatever new systems blizz might implement, new leggos. nerfs… buffs… no one knows, but what i -do- know is that we can function so much better, should people only dare to speak up with tempered concerns instead of hyperbole… even if i myself spice my posts with some agitating rhetoric… that i stand for and wont apologize for because there is legit concerns to be brought forth, even if you are angry at the many years of neglect and afterthoughts.
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I cant talk about pve really as it is a completely different beast and one that I haven’t really tried (mandatory m+ for the vault and no raid progrsssion because I genuinely don’t care about raiding at all. I know in m+ in general we are very weak, and I often find myself hyperfocusing just to stay at second place dps, so I know for sure we need a buff in pve.
But you spoke about pigeonholed set ups and specific plays that require coms and voice. The only time I’ve ever used voice was in legion to push duelist for the first time, and this is why I believe what I said earlier about playing with good people is important. Doing skirms puts you with literally anyone queuing, and most of the time they don’t have a clue what they’re doing. It doesn’t require an amazing player to set up a burst window, it just required a discussion in the waiting area and some basic game knowledge. Once you play a few games you iron out mistakes and get it down without the need for loads of coms.
I would also say that far more comps rely on pigeonhole set ups than you think. rmp relies on both the mage and rogue to burst from stealth at the same time and burst off of rogue cc and mage sheeps; that’s takes a lot more set up than twd if you ask me. Php requires the Hunter to land a freeze trap while the pallys’ HoJ isn’t on cd, and good healers can avoid freeze traps fairly easily. I could go on but I don’t have the space in this post.
I would also say that outside of our burst window we have pretty strong damage. The issue is is that we can’t 100-0 someone which most other classes can and so we don’t have the scare factor in our burst that most other classes do. If there isn’t a ww or ret in the arena I will usually top damage through just heavy cleave and continual pressure.
Overall I would say that the real issue isn’t that dk’s are bad, but instead that other classes right now are just broken and so overshadow dk’s massively. Once one shot mechanics are removed and bursts are tweaked frost will shine as a strong damage dealing utility class that is pretty well rounded
The fact that a plate equiped char has paper defense makes me wanna vomit on the other hand you have warlocks and priests that were cloth and their life doesn’t go down facks sake
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Slow walking jaggernout
Slow walking yes
Jaggernout no class fantasy should be like we live and do dmg but lack cc this is dk
Atm we cant cc alone we dont so enogth smg compared to other outstanding specs
And our deffensiv are veey bad ams being cracked in 1 global death strikes heal 2k many 3 while ret pala wog heals 15ks amz 2 min icebound 3 min and we are dead
And we cant play 2s not in frost and not in unh
We are the worst melee for pvp
Even ww will do better with war
Understand what i say theres nothing good enogth that we can bring into game
No matter what class i play i wouldent take dk
Warriora rets wws rogues ferals even enh and dgs are better
Look at 2s cervantes berly did 2.3 and he won 2v2 turnament in bfa he toped ladder all bfa
If hes stock it means dk are so bad thats its abusing
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