DO NOT prune abilities, WOW is fun because of its complexity, keep it complex

Interesting point about Go, but I don’t think it entirely translates into WoW.

In any case, I really wanna zoom in on this statement because

a) I agree
b) I think the CD aspect here is important

The issue for me, in a nutshell, is that everything has a little cooldown. The amount of mage abilities now compared to tBC isn’t actually that much higher - a little bit, but not hugely. But the number of cooldowns is over double.

Cooldowns are great in limited amounts, but the problem with everything having cooldowns is that cooldowns regenerate independently - that means that the more you can throw quickly on top of one another, the quicker they’ll come back. It is often very foolish to hold them for long, especially the offensive ones, and they stack together into true absurdities.

Put another way: If you give me 100 of something and two abilities that cost 100, I’ll have to choose one for the situation - but if you give me 200 of that thing and tell me each of them can be used only once, then you’ve just told me to mash every key on the keyboard.

You can then further reinforce that by saying 1 powers 2 up, and now you’ve reduced an interesting choice to “press 1, then 2, no matter what” by adding passives and more resources.

That’s the problem that’s consuming WoW’s class design at the minute in a nutshell.

How could I miss that. Yes, that is also very true. Tons of stuff just doesn’t have a sound, sounds get filtered, overlap.

In vanilla the only proc Druids had, which I played at the time, was Omen of Clarity, and whenever it procced it made a nice little sound that not onyl I could hear, but people could hear from me (albeit at a lower volume) - and when it procced, I had 5 different ways I could use it.

Why did we go away from that?

Choices. Your Ice Wall vs Polymorph example is great, but most mage abilities aren’t like that. Most mage abilities are like Frost Nova, Freeze, and Ice Nova, that all behave slightly differently but ultimately gets used for the same thing and has a very similar effect, or things like Flurry that’s really just there to allow you to shatter two ice lances (or a glacial) - or indeed things like Glacial, which is just a stronger Frostbolt you can cast every 5 icicles.

Your character has literally never been in an arena match. I’m very confused as to what you’re talking about.

I think a lot of people would agree with that, myself included, but even there we’ve got some weird shenanigans.

For example, due to the insane amount of debuffs and DoT’s and cleaves in the game, Invisibility more often than not would last 1 second, so they put a 50% damage reduction on it. So now it’s actually a shield wall rather than invisibility. I think that’s less complex than if the spell worked as intended because not everyone could deal a DoT tick to you 3 times a second, and because you wouldn’t feel compelled to save your “shield wall” if it wasn’t one because it was invisibility.

Next patch we’re gonna have the whole 3 shields thing again. How is having 3 shields more fun than having 1, given the fact that it’s the same ability that uses them all anyway?

Is it really more fun that warriors have 5 charges and you have 5 blinks that you need to trade precisely for every single one of them? (Shimmer, Alter, Shimmer, alter back, Shimmer, Displace)

Why do Mirror Images provide damage reduction instead of just doing CC and threat reduction?

It’s just bloat. It’s so much bloat.

Oh and by the way, as for the 30 spells thing - huh? I just specced my RM build to see what we’ve got.
I have binds with unique spells on:
Poly RoFire FBomb Ray Racial Decurse Spellsteal Displacement Alter Mirror Ice Nova RoFrost Trinket Ice Lance FB Glacial Flurry Counterspell Blink Invis CoC Nova WE Freeze (same bind) Mass Barrier Ice Barrier Block Orb Blizz Cold Snap Floes Slow Slowfall (useful in BG’s!) DB BWave Shifting DPS trinket

So how many is that? Well, it’s 35.

Then I could mention AE Fire Blast Time Warp (BG’s again) AI and I could also spec Comet Storm, bringing me to a grand total of 41 abilities useful in combat. But let’s be fair and stick to that 35.

It’s… kind of amazing. We we have someone who says the game should be complicated because he has 30 and that makes him happy - but he has more than 30 and doesn’t even know it. I rest my case.

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What a load of drivel.

More buttons does not equal complexity and complexity doesn’t always equal more engaging.

Less buttons doesn’t automatically equal “people want dumb”

Your post has no nuance, and why would we even care what you think? You barely know anything about the game but here you are drawing conclusions. That’s sorta the opposite of smart.

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Final fantasy has double WoW abilities.

I fully agree. Swtor and GW2 pruned abilities experience proved to be a wrong decision for next reasons:

  1. Less variety, flexibility which causes lose of interest in playing same class for longer time
  2. Less possibilties to fix unfair and big nerfs from devs (and such nerfs are the issue in wow) since you have less choices in talents and abilities to use and choose
  3. No rewards for investing time playing your class since even newbies can master it fast due to easier gameplay

Overall, simplifying the game and pruning abilities proves to cause problems and discomfort in gameplay

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i have 2 horde characters Mage\Hunter and 2 alliance same classes. lately i play on my alliance chars. i thought an experienced player like you know ppl can have multiple characters. :stuck_out_tongue: anyway i played my first season in season2(mm hunter, frost mage). in season 3 i just started rolling in green stuff(honor) nowdays on my void elf frost mage.

i wrote AROUND, i didnt count them exactly and also my AROUND number has no slow fall and time wrap and the likes. now only for you i counted them exactly and its 34 + 1 for healthstone if i have a warlock in my team(no time wrap and slowfall and mounts and the likes, they re on keybinds tho for me, but i dont think they count as combat ability, especially cuz cannot be used in arena). i dont think 35 spell is a lot. i think 30-45 active combat spell is good, i still have a lot of keys to bind, even if i dont use any mmorpg multi button mouse or macro button keyboard…

well and i dont care what you and others think, i dont want to be seen as smart by you or other 15 button believers…

This post is not here for you, its here because i want to represent my kind of players, new players who like the current wow combat system and like the ton of stuff going on, even if my skill\knowledge level is not there yet to be a 2000+ player, but still enjoy the combat, the progress and the many many things going on my screen and i would love to keep playing wow like this.

The other reason the post is here because im tired of content creators say wow is too complicated for new players and it has too many abilities to use for new players that scare them away. Its simply not true for every new players, there are new players who fall in love with the game exactly because of that. So i just wanted to represent that branch of players.

i respect players with big knowledge, but many wow players who play the game for 10-20 years think only they can have proper opinion. well, wow is a constantly changing 2nd gen mmorpg, a game that can change a lot and can become a totally different game in a few expansions time window. Like other 2nd gen mmorpgs. I dont think only wow veterans can have good thoughts on the game, other players within the same genre can have kinda the same 2nd gen mmorpg experience just with different games. what i want to say, you think other ppl barely know anything about wow, well those players(including me) dont know all things for sure, for example i dont know all the abilities of each class, but the base formula, the combat system is kinda the same or very similar for every games in the genre.

you can make fun of my long posts :smiley: in my circle of friends or work environment prefer long detailed posts\talks usually its a good thing, maybe the standard here is 3 words\sentence but thats ok.

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Of course I do, but you see the issue is, when you want to talk about how difficult a barrier to entry you wanna have, I think it’s tremendously important that you haven’t gotten through it yourself.

And you haven’t, that much is clear.

You were off by 30%. That’s not a trivial number.

If we went to 45 combat abilities I would have to quit the game due to having too small hands.

But the number of binds is far from the only issue with having that many spells in such a fast paced game. If it was paced like FF14 where you’re taking an action every 3 seconds, then fine - but in WoW you’re taking 80+ actions per minute, and the actual button presses you do is upwards of 250 (I measured this with an app). So that means it’s as fast as playing professional StarCraft 2, and we all know what that takes.

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Really? Im genuinely curious. With which spec and in what context (raid, pvp, M+)?

M+ Frost Mage, measured with Desktop APM.

People don’t realize, I think, how much it adds when you tab target 3 times in a second to get the right enemy, or move side to side, or press a button 2-3 times to line it up perfectly with the previous one, or click units then dispel (that’s 2!) and so on.

If you just look at the amount of spells cast, it’ll usually hover around 70, and frost mage is actually pretty slow compared to some others.

So you’re doing that stuff for 3-4 hours straight. What do you think is gonna happen? Well, nothing at first, but slowly, eventually, it’s gonna start to hurt. In StarCraft it often gets so bad that pros quit because of it.


https://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/T29_Raid.html

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The pros play at much higher APM than 250. 250 is maybe first 2 minutes.

Also, normal people dont practice for 12h a day for years at a time. Its not healthy to play a game for 12h straight unless they pay you for it.

Interesting to know though. Never thought of measuring that myself. Im curious. Im going to do it too.

It might kind of explain why I suck so much as a DPS.

Thats a simulation in ST Punyelf. That would be the “basic rotation”. But all the tab-targeting, moving left and right, clicking stuff are not included in that simulation.

Also. Measured data >>> simulations. Simulations are just there to give a rough idea. Or to compare specs with each other under controlled conditions.

There is more breakdown on the page but it always makes me feel sorry for Tanks seeing that list.

https://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/T29_Raid.html

SimCraft can’t measure it properly. It’s just doing the DPS rotation with no regard for anything else, it’s not cancelling or making adjustments. This is strictly a perfect one-click-per-ability press, in which case 50 makes sense.

People will do cast cancels and stuff like that. In the case of Frost Mages you’re getting at least 4 APM compared to that from Ice Floes alone, and really it’s more than that.

Can you try to find some logs? I remember having these figures posted at me from real logs, but I don’t know how to get at it.

But think about it. Every time you right click to spin the camera, every time you press a button 2-3 times to line it up perfectly, every time you tab target, click an enemy, fire an ability of course, press a modifier to combo with another button (yes, that DOES count as a keypress to Desktop APM, and for good reason), zoom the camera with the mouse wheel, move, jump, etc. that’s all a keypress and once you add them all up it’s a lot. More than you think.

Like kiting away and hitting someone behind you? Jump, spin character, press button 1-2 times (one click might be facing the wrong way, so just to make sure), spin back, land.

That was 4 clicks. In about one second. And a 360 noscope. xD

Sims are mostly target dummy yes but they still give a good indication of actions.

SimCraft does have its usefulness though. Computer simulations are really misunderstood. Not only in WoW but in general. Either people take them at point value, or disregard them completly.

What it does say is that if you were to play Fire instead of Frost, you would need to press more buttons. Under the assumption that all that tab-targeting and camera adjustments remains the same.

And that is probably true.

They give a good indication of how many abilities you fire, not how many times you click.

In StarCraft 2 it’s quite common to get inflated APM by just clicking the same thing many times or selecting units. It would be pretty unfair to ignore that aspect of it in WoW but include it in SC2, don’t you think?

EDIT: But the important part is your fingers don’t feel how many spells you fire. It feels how many times you hit a button.

I can confirm that it is.

I don’t think SC2 is relevant when it comes to WoW gameplay.

Any game is relevant when it comes to measuring how fast you click buttons. Your hand’s your hand, it can only handle so much.

SC2 is just the worst example I can come up with. It’s waaaaay fast.

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I agree to that.

No need to measure even. There is footage of the keyboard/mouse of the pros in both WoW and SC2… and there is no comparison.

SC2 is just madness compared to wow. Not only for what they do, but also because they do that ALL DAY practicing.

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Agreed, SC2 is way worse, but WoW isn’t slow either. It’s the fastest MMO by far.

If you feel that way, that’s fine but I simply don’t agree. Two very different games.