I think the bulk of the playerbase use cookie cutter builds from the various sources or simply sim them.
Tell me about it. I play Shaman.
You know how much useless crap I have? Even worse : Useless crap that I have to talent in order to get to the stuff that is useful.
Better to make that talent a +5% mana or something like that.
3 Likes
Wdym?
Even if I turned off the damage numbers and friendly nameplates(which I use to see where people are), I would still be like āThereās way too much going on in this screenā.
Yeah, I actually got hit by a dinner bell in that pull because I couldnāt even see its effect on the floor due to everything going on. I canāt keep track of that specific mobs cast bar constantly, thatās just unrealistic.
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Visual clutter is huge even if you try to turn off other peopleās effects.
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I agree with this. I leveled a few alts a while back and I quite liked opening the talent trees and using the new point.
Although at max level it is a little bit of a pain. So I tend to just go to Icy Veins and copy-paste a build from there.
The trees should have more themes / tracks for talent points. It kind of feels just like a bunch of buffs and abilities just flung into a tree sometimes. This is ok when leveling as you just pick stuff that looks like you might be ok at the time.
But at max level when you have a load of points to spend you might want to do a Lightning build or a Lava build but there isnāt a cohesive track for these. You can browse through the tree and maybe find scattered talents that might create such a build but itās not straight forward.
And people are telling me Iām just saying it because āAsmon is saying itā lol.
Man I wish. Remember the two of us trying to talk about it two years ago?
Theyāre not doing anything about it at allā¦ 
I do wish I could just paste my whole build in and it would just auto fill though. I just keep pasting in the build each time I level 
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yeah.
Including Action Bar layoutā¦
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This yeah.
MoP was not complex or hard to understand, even with equally as many if not morr abilities than what we have now.
Classes still had clear strenghts and weaknesses, and unique tools, unlike now.
Abilities did what they were intended to do, instead of everything.
Gameplay was not degenerate.
It could help if the talent builder would allow invalid states, except for saving.
So I could begin with marking interesting talents, then work out how to get there.
Sometimes I want to change an early talent and then it cancels everything dependent.
The current solution is more leveling based, you know where you want to go and when itās not feasible, you backtrack to see what could be the most useful path there.
Having to spend āunwantedā talent points is intentional to limit overspecialization.
Finding the path is name of the game.
The impact of absolute optimization is supposed to be minimal. You can do it if you enjoy it, but itās not expected. In that sense, talents are supposed to be chosen based on your style, not spreadsheets.
We need less cooldowns.
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i dont give a nickle about what "content creators " say . the game is pretty fine as it is . it has enough content for casual players as well as hardcore players to enjoy the game .
there is a nice ceiling to the complexity of the game .
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Oh yes!! So annoying have to do that, not found a way to replicate that yet.
there is way to many spells now on some classes. it is just not fun for me to play classes like that.
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There are specs with overly convoluted rotations, too many mini CDs, and too many similar abilities. There are also specs with rigid rotations that, if you mess them up or canāt execute them properly because of mechanics, completely tank your performance.
I believe this is also why many players gravitate to specs with comparatively easy rotations. I feel that the challenge should come from interesting mechanics, not from the number of abilities and keybinds. I think there is also too much conditional stuff that makes WAs mandatory as you realistically canāt really track it manually.
In fact, I donāt believe that complexity has anything to do with the number of abilities. Take, for example, the game of Go. You have one type of piece (all pieces can do the same), in just two colors, and you can put them nearly anywhere on the board. There are very few rules, and yet it is the board game with the largest complexity.
Iād welcome another round of sensible pruning of abilities. Many abilities, CDs in particular, could be consolidated and streamlined. This also applies to talents. Thereās just a lot of unnecessary stuff that could be trimmed.
Instead of hero talents, which just heap more stuff on the pile, Iād love seeing thoughtful reworking of many of the specs that are currently in the game.
5 Likes
omgā¦ ppl are talking about button bloat hereā¦ okay for sure my experience in wow is limited, thats true, even tho i know a few things about mmorpgs and im a small pvp content creator of a kinda dead mmorpg and been playing the genre as long as some of the wow players played wow here.
so i dont know all the classes in wow but i love controlling the battlefield and kiting, thats why i play frost mage in wow. so i dont know all the spells of every other specs, but on my frost mage i have around 30 combat abilities i use and are on keybinds. WOW is a second generation mmorpg and with 30 keybinds and 30 abilities you ppl talk about button bloat?
25 abilities is the bare minimum in my opinion for any 2nd gen mmorpg to dont get bored after a week, i kinda leave my old mmorpg because they remove abilities by every patch and make things simple and easy. my old game has 20-25 abilities to use right now(used to be more) and much more complex los system and maps, positioning there is more important, but in wow maps are way too simple and los is just meh because of the simple mapsā¦
Anyway so what makes a 2nd gen mmorpg complex which has such simple maps, and kinda bad los but awesome abilities? Clearly you really need a lot of knowledge about the abilities and buffs of every class in the game and use the right ability in the right time with some basic positioning. Well wow is also a cooldown based mmorpg with global cooldown system, therefore you make decisons after each ability usage to choose what comes next based(reacting on them) on the events happening around you, you interact with your team and with your enemies and make a decision based on that in every GCD. So the more abilities, the more complex is to make the decision on what to use.
Since i kinda only have experience with frost mage, lets take a look at my tools, right now in a good arena match if i want to take the healer out of the game, i can use poly, til DR is ok, then i can choose ice wall to separate the target and the healer, or make a trap with frost ring, or freeze them behind a pillar and knock the target to los the healer. There are a lot of decisions to make when and wahat to use and combos to do and every game can be very very different, lets say we just remove half of these abilities, that will reduce all the combo i can do, pretty much reduce the need of knowledge and CPU load in my head simply because my tools i can use and i can think of are limitedā¦
You, the ppl who say number of abilities and buffs\debuffs dont make things more complex, then what does? Clearly in a 2nd gen mmorpg like wow there are multiple factors that can build up complexity, but the number of meaningful abilities clearly the biggest part of that. On my frost mage with those 30 abilities, i use them in every arena games and they all add up to the excitement i feel when things work out as i planned them.
its very important to note i dont mean rotational dmg abilities here, i think that pretty much the boring part of the game and the basics of any class. the fun part comes with kiting spells, controlling spells, surviving spells, those abilities make the magic for sure, doing combos with them, setting up traps, outplay and outsmart your enemies, for that you need your tools to be able to chose the right combination, so the number of those spell matter a lot.
This at last a passive option arround ever active too use that makes your specc intresting and more well roundet
You know about a ton of things.
Including writing massive essays.
But not reading. Because you are not getting what people are saying.
Its not the # of buttons. Its the amount of buttons that do nothing at all. Not even slow people and kite things.
Or, worst, are designed in a counter mechanical way.
I mean. People even gave you examples of abilities that are just there for decoration basically.
Also, I dont beleive you. GCDs exist for a reason, and you just dont have enough GCDs if you pretend to CC and use all your 20 rotational buttons. AND move around.
And that is why you are 1600 rating. Because frost have a ton of CCs (true) but you dont have enough GCDs to actually execute your rotation properly. So of the 20 buttons, you use maybe 10.
And that is why some classes are just better in PvP than others. With less buttons, you fill up GCDs with MEANINGFULL spells and execute a full rotation plus CC. Then you kill things.
Get it now? 
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We only got 10 fingers. Half of which are already preoccupied with the camera and three more with the controls.
Most core rotations are already around 5 buttons with 1-3 buffs or longer cooldown abilities. Itās also easier to balance and design around.
Ultimately it isnāt the amount of buttons that matter but the flow and sound design.
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Huh? Poly shares DR with the ring.