I know a lot of people who like raids, but have to do m+ for gear and find it not just boring, I heard words way worse than this. Should we consider remove gear from m+ to respect their time? Same for m+ lovers and raid. Why is it okay to force people to do raids and m+, but at the same time it’s perfectly okay to remove power progression from open world?
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That is a fair complaint. One which I agree with. I HATE having to farm raids for OP gear. And there is nothing on this world that I would like more than to have separate gear and talent auras for 5 man and raid content.
PvPers had the same complaint in fact. And now they got their own system with their own ilvl scaling and their own way to farm it.
You wanna PvP? Good. Start farming the gear for it.
And its 100% fine. Not only that, it works 90% perfect. Except for the tier pieces.
Thing is, that you confuse your argument.
Your argument should not be: Since M+ and Raid share gear so should WQ share it with them. Its a really bad argument. Because IF you want that, you then need to implement the infinitely scalable difficulty of M+ and Raid to WQ. You cant make a “unique” content anymore.
Your argument should be: WQ are TOTALLY different from M+ and Raid. So they should get the same treatment as PvP.
And your friend there that hates M+ should be saying the same.
There was definitely too much required content and grinds in Legion → Shadowlands. Dragonflight went the completely opposite direction, by allowing players complete freedom.
Dragonflights formula is BY FAR more healthy than previous expansions, but I understand how some players have now gotten accustomed to the “required grind fest” from earlier, and now feel as if “there is nothing to do”, or that “content is boring”.
Some players just can’t function without being told what to do. 
In my opinion, what Dragonflight lacks is merely a better story, which isn’t Disneyfied, and feels more like old school “bad a**” WoW”. 
As well as proper open world content, besides WQs… WQs has ALWAYS been a bad and time wasting way of giving players stuff to do… Hopefully The War Within fixes this however, seeing they are massively focusing on the open world, through making it end game content.
I’m not talking specifically about gear. I’m talking about power progression. Something that affects a power of a character. Something that makes you stronger. In legion you could just do WQs and have a) good gear (TF) b) AP. I don’t find any problem with some power progression tied to open world. Ofcourse, people will say that it’s mandatory and you have to do it. Yes, like m+ lovers have to do raid and vice versa.
Right now open world gives you nothing. You literally have no reason to be outside of Valdrakken. Is it perfectly fine for you? Why even make open world content if it’s irrelevant? Just make circle object in a capital, so people can run around it while waiting people to do instanced content.
Dont be dense. I had this discussion before. The question is: WHY? What changed?
Because frankly, WQ are EXACTLY the same as in Legion. So where are all the people?
Il explain it slowly, because you have 100% not got the memo:
OK. Power Progression. You refer to: WQ give me something, so my character becomes stronger. Example:
That is Good. It made WQ rewarding.
//////////////////////
BACK to the previous statement: What changed? They removed AP? WHY?
Because: Since AP is used for a weapon (or other borrowed power) that is ALSO used in PvP, M+ and Raid… people that did that content ALSO need AP.
So… where to get it? Mythic Raiding? High end PvP? Or some quest that asks you to “kill 10 Durotar boars”?
That is why… if whatever reward or “player progression” WQ give you… IF they are linked in any way to M+/Raid you NEED equivalent difficulty.
Otherwise, we are back to where we were complaining “I don’t wanna genocide Durotar boars every week…” which is the #1 reason WHY blizz removed AP in the first place.
But… here is the detail you have to understand…
IF you separate player WQ player progression from M+/Raid (like PvP)… what will happen? I tell you what will happen: People STILL would not do WQ content. Because they are boring to begin with.
Because M+ after key level 20 gives 0 rewards. But people still do it. And Raiding, after killing the boss 1 time… there is 0 reward. Why keep re-clearing? No player progression to be had. So… why do it? Maybe because its… dunno… FUN? 
Therefore, if people don’t wanna do WQ now (and complain that they have to farm their gear via M+ like your Raider friend), they wont do it with properly separated player progression rewards.
THEREFORE: What needs to change is to make open world content FUN. And that is the elephant in the room. Not AP, not Player Progression, nothing of those sorts.
Got it now?
They don’t do it, cause it gives no rewards. Not because it’s boring.
Put some meaningful reward and there will be tons of people there.
Example? Soup. It’s boring as hell, but there are always tons of people, cause you have a chance to get 40k gold item.
Remove gear from raids and it will die exactly this day. There will be 1.5 people playing. Like WQ enjoyers now.
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OKOK… lets go over those statements…
First: Did you read what I said? Il quote it again for you:
There. Instances where people do stuff for fun with 0 reward expectation. Sure, there are less people, but FAR from empty.
For how long? Like Zarelech Caverns… or Forbidden Reach ? Once people farmed their Annulet (FOR M+/Raids/PvP) then how many people stayed? What more “meaningful” reward you expect to give people than a ring that increases your power by 20% in some cases… but once people got it… did people return to killing rares?
You tell me.
Sure. Boring as hell.
But I remember at DF launch where “tons of people” were literally “server crashing amounts of people”. Where we got the Epic soup in 2 minutes tops.
Now… I went to do the soup the other day… and sure… there ARE people. But we got the blue quality soup instead. Just people AFKing there. I was the only one actually doing the tasks given. They might as well been bots.
WHY the contrast? Because 99% of people did it in early DF for that sweet 380 item it dropped. Not gold.
So if THAT is your example of succesful Open World content you are 100% delusional.
Then it means that the whole concept of raiding is old and not up to date. Which it is. Its the same concept as in 2004 kept alive by carrot epix.
Which is the same argument I give WQ.
M+ … they would survive… And PvP is already like that and it survives just fine. All it needs is for Blizz to grow some balls and change MMR system. But definitely gear is not the issue.
If 1000 people do it does not make it a success(if they are as many)
Same logic.
So unless there is a good reward,most people(not the 1k above mentioned tryhards)won’t do anything.
Oh I remember the discussions when Blizz tried to make max reward from the vault from a 20.
The drama. The hubris of people that want gear given to them for free and then complain that there is no progression.
I agree. Give stuff in M+. Only for M+ (not for any other category). But… hear me out… proportional to key level… How would that sound?
Better for you?
And now tell me… would there be more try hards doing +20s or less?
Dividing the gear more will divide the game more.People want their gear to be good in all parts,and not carry 3 types of it in the bags.
I see failure if this will happen.
Why would it be better for me?
I am not a try hard.
Gatekeeping gear and progression based on if you can be carried or buying a boost is not what I call good design.
If the gear is only good in m+,only all m+ lovers will become try hards.Because for most people gear is the motivation.
Take rewards out of m+ and no one will do it(well only those 1k)
Read a title I guess. We’re talking about Legion and BFA models.
Is that a serious question? You are really asking why there are less people now after a year of a probably worst expansion in compare with a first days of a launch?
What is the difference between AP and an Annulet? The difference is infinitely scalable.
And people could not just “stop farming AP”. But if they COULD, same thing would have happened as in Reach and that Annulet.
Who cares if its good or bad expansion?
What mattered was that sweet 380 epic. If it DF was the BOMB of an expansion, there would have been even more people crashing the server even more often.
But the fact still remains.
So… your point was?
What? You cant do that now?
Are you new to MMOs? Boosting and Carrying services have existed since Everquest. And you can design your system as easy, grindy, hard, or tedious as you want. In any of those scenarios, there is always players that will pay legally or illegally to be boosted.
Your point is? I did not ask if its better for try-hards. I asked if it would be better for YOU.
Look. Im tired of repeating the same thing. It does not matter how many rewards you give. If the content is not fun to begin with people will not continue playing it once they have achieved those rewards.
Why is this such a controversial opinion?
Hell yeah. No really aside the fact that they keep ignoring frost Dks and the crappy story, this expansion is pure win.
Sure, 4 areas but not only huge, but lots of stuff to do in them and not half-arsed stuff, but actually great. Not to mention how sublime they look. People doing stuff around the world. I go here, there’s a dream invasion thing, I go there, a fire invasion, time-travel stuff. I love it.
Hell, I even go do the Iskara cookout thing just out of pleasure. I love that place, wish I could take it with me in the next expansion.
So hell yeah, credit where credit is due. This expansion has been, by far, an improvement of the overall game.
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And how hard it is to understand the same is for m+?
It is not fun and if it wasn’t so good for gearing people would not play it.
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You are intentionally ignoring 80% of my argument which is that this content needs to be rewarding to be worthwhile, so there’s nothing much else to say at this point.
It is supposed to be quick and brief open world romp to break up the lobby grinds with M+ and raids. You could clear the whole map of WQs in Legion for the same time it took to do 1 M+ dungeon because they were short.
So why did they both make WQs useless in terms of rewards, AND cut them to bi-weekly as well? They automatically stop being a “chore” once you remove the AP, so why also drastically nerf the amount of available quests making it dead content?
The only way world content can be relevant if they don’t the game to be a raid/m+ logging lobby, is for open world stuff to provide a respite from the grind by being able to offer something of value in terms of power (like it did AP and titanforging), and to have enough of it so that people who prefer it can do it more often than twice a week.
No…the only thing their “content cadence” resulted in is less core content you’re talking about than prior expansions, that’s literally the main point of my post. Their have vomited 5-6 new world events through these patches, while we meanwhile got less dungeon and raid content than both Legion and BFA. They clowned you into thinking they’re giving you more lmao.
I hate this condescending argument that’s been around since DF launched so much. No one needs to be told what to do, they simply removed meaningful rewards from non-instanced content completely and the game went back to raid logging.
Previously, you could be working on AP and increasing player power with artifacts, essences, corruptions, and just getting better world drops with titanforging and challenging solo content like Visions, now there’s none of that.
They aren’t massively focusing on anything, delves sound mid as hell from what they said so far like open world sniffen seeking. It’s gonna fall apart the second the game launches if they still refuse to put meaningful power rewards in that area of content.
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The answer is NO.
Unless they make the content fun. Grinding boars is not my idea of “fun” and many people share my opinion.
Like I said many times. There are people that like Open World content as it is. But, as it clearly shows from how empty it is its a clear minority. Forcing the majority to play some boring genocide is wrong.
SO? What? Raids dont have weelky resets? Vault is not weekly? Crest/Conquest cap are not weekly?
Dont know… there are a TON of things with intentional time gates. ALL of which are designed to artificially dellay the time it takes to reach the end reward. Whatever that may be. Rep, gear, whatever…
What is your point here?
Sure… So 2 months from now… when everyone is exalted with the new rep. When everyone has farmed all the gear they need from M+…
Lets try the following: 1) Find a group for an elite quest / rare in the new zone. Simultaniously… 2) Find a group for a 22.
Where do you think you will be more sucessfull?
Cause what S1 and S2 of DF proved so far is that A) After 1 month NOBODY is in the new zone doing stuff. and B) that its easy to find a group for keys > 20.
Not a massive ammount of people il agree… but not the absolute sadness you see in Zerelech Caverns or the Forbidden Reach.
I just want to double down on the fact that 2 weeks ago, when it was not S1 or S2. NO RATING gains, no gear gains, no nothing…
There were STILL ~ 300k people doing keys in the 3h I played on a friday night. And I did LFR with 2 chars, and waited 10 min. You wont find 300k people doing WQ ever… and you cant deny it…
What you are doing is proving my point more than you think.
Because the gear is bad,catch up in the world.
If the gear was good in the world and none in keys,most people would do the world.
Did you count 300k people?Where do you get this number from?
And the world is split up with sharding I hear so ofc u wont see 300k people there…on top of only having catch up gear.CATCH UP,BAD,not amazingly big ilvl m+ whatever gear.
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Raider io. Not very reliable I know… but its the best there is.
You dense. Yes. Of course people would, like they did in Legion and BFA.
People would DO open world content to GET GEAR, to then go do M+, Raids, PvP with that gear/AP they just farmed. And the majority of people had a MASSIVE problem with that.
THAT is what the MAJORITY of people don’t want to do. Some people in this very post mentioned raiders that HATE doing M+ for gear, and I personally HATE raiding for my M+ gear.
But the fact is: For Raiding, M+ is the way to get gear. And people DO M+, farm their gear, and THEN use it to raid.
OK. So… lets digest that fact… you have people Raiding… and doing some other content they don’t like for gear? Why don’t they do M+ straight away if rewards is what they are looking for? Why are they Raiding in the first place?
Like how many people do you know that have to farm M+ to get gear so they can do Open World Content and are complaining about it? Ive yet to see a forum post.
But regardless of how many people farm M+, there is a SIGNIFICANT community of people like myself that have yet to step foot on the raid. Because M+ is fun for a group of people large enough to sustain itself. Like PvP is. Like Raiding is.
Something Open World content isent. Because if it was, they would be playing right now… complaining about why they need to farm M+ for gear.
Get it now?
So I believe you are proving my point all on your own.