Do the lore has any role left in the game?

Community General Discussion
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Seeing the late class changes, addig the older char options from Shadowlands, I think less and less that it’s important (for the devs part of the playerbase), to classes and races have a uniqe fantasy behind each of them.

The draenei and lightforged draenei warlocks are among them, especialy if you consider the paradox situation, that both faction is a devout follower of the Light, even their racial ability revolves around it. And now they announce eredar skin for daenei… which would even be okay with very enforced compromises, if it would been only player option, but knowing how they retconned the african skin to dwarfs, gnomes, blood elfs they didn’t stop there, but for reasons they retconned npcs too, going even backward in the previous expansions.

I don’t want to write a novel, I hope you can get my concern and confusion about the fate of the geme, depending on the changes of the last few years.

It fills my heart with sadness (and rage), that with every late content “upgrades” we are supposed to get more, but in truth we are getting less, and the old magic of the game, that we, older players loved, slowly fades away.

As for the responsibility of the community, let me use a movie reference: “So this is how the magic of the game dies…with thunderous applause.”

Thank you for listening.

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If you think that is worse, just wait til you see my Tiefling Paladin in Baldurs Gate 3. Tieflings are literally a mix between humanoid and demon spawns… And yet I can be a Paladin. And in that universe it works. So why shouldn’t it work in WoW too?

Aside of that, this is done obviously for player convenience. You call it a feature to have class restrictions, a lot more people will call it a brickwall stopping them from enjoying the game how they want.

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I don’t play Baldur’s Gate, so I can’t give a deep comparsion to that, but

no offense, but if I can use a paralall example, just because something works/a set rule in the Star Trek universe, it doesn’t mean it should be autamtically apply to the Star Wars universe, since the two, - even both being sci-fi - two different thing. Same for the two game, BG has it’s own rule and lore set (I presume builded up since the the first game), it’s the same for WoW, similar medievalish fantazy world, but completly different background.

If you pull the rpg part out of a mmo rpg, the remains will be a generic mmo, which kind get releases by the dozens, but easily forgotten.

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I would think that whatever the players are is not really canon. Like in lore people can’t really resurrect people the way players do, it’s just a game mechanic. I would prefer more accurate lore but gotta please the majority.

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I do feel that we’re getting a lot of things that kinda takes away immersion just for the sake of “choices”. As you mentioned, retconning certain things for races in terms of skin being one example. What I find hilarious is that Alliance can’t stand Horde, we can’t break that faction barrier (because reasons). But demons that roam free and not tied to warlocks? SURE, come on in!

At this rate there are no real rules - which can be fun for people who just wanna do whatever, but it takes away from what the world used to be and slowly becoming a “generic, boring mess” because “everyone can be anything”.

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I personally cannot wait to see how many warlocks named “Jaraxxus” will be out there once we get the “red skin”.

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No, they should just open all the restrictions.

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That’s a fair point. But I don’t think WoW would lose its charm of Lore by adding features. Draenei using Fel magics have been around in certain factions already previously. The Sargerei from WoD comes to my mind for example. So how is it a bad thing by giving the players the choice to have those classes accessible, but not have to play them if they don’t want to?

Like take Draenei Paladin for example. You are a paragon of your people.

Take now a Draenei Warlock for example. You could have been a Paladin before. But now you are an Outcast in your society… Using corrupting magics for more Power against your foes.

As for the more controversial races like Lightforged Draenei. In theory a Lightforged Draenei is a fully-attuned personification of the Light. So in theory, you are immune to the corruption of the Fel and could actually use it without personal draw-backs, simply because your inner Light keeps the corrupting Fel in check.

Same way as certain Undeads (and even Death Knights) since WotLK did occasionally use the Light despite being literally Undead.

That aside…

In fact, we don’t even know yet how the Man’ari Eredar skin unlocks will play out from the lore perspective in the respective quest chain to unlock them in the first place.

I am all ok with people hating it once they tested it on the PTR. But before we even got to see how it is implemented? That’s a big stretch.

As I said somewhere else, not always games manage to keep story and gameplay on an 1:1 level.

Imagine a universe as dark as Dark Souls where you have only 1 life. But if you die you have to start over, by default. Sure. It would make the charm. But it would ALSO make the game sell gradually less to the masses due to the specific way to play and win in the game.

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Lore of the old WoW took its last breath and passed away in the Shadowlands. Now nothing matters. The chains holding it all back has been broken. The Jailer has set the lore free.

Now rejoice in Draneii again falling to the lures of the fell. For some time has passed, this time will be different. The Draneii welcome their Man’ari kin to join them within the umbrella of the name Draneii, because they clearly will mesh well. Because, what is not life without forgiveness? You can trust that demons can repent. Bring them in, open doors - oh yeah, someone tell the demonhunters to play nice. Times have changed, they might be blind to it.

What before was a sign of corruption and evil, is not to be shunned. So what if the cost is everything? We do not learn from our mistakes. Only Garosh did - see what happened to him, he is now dust and gone. So drink, drink from that sweet cup of power. Rejoice!

For the choice was yours. If the Night Elves can forgive the Horde - then surly the Draneii can forgive the Man’ari after such a long time. The Lightforged should embrace the use of fell - because it has never corrupted everything it touches.

… and hey, if everything goes to hell and we all die. We can take the portal back from the shadowlands and go back in time to set things staight. It is always win/win

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okay not everybody from a race follows the same religion that’s not reason enough on its own

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Short answer OP.

No. Blizzard stopped caring about lore a long time ago.

Which suits the players as well because they just want to play as X class with Y race and at the same time wax lyrical about lore.

Both sides win with the lore, or more precisely, what’s left if it, being used as a handful of toilet paper. If you want to see lore then join a dedicated rp on an RP realm like Argent Dawn because with each passing month the lore is pushed more and more off the cliff edge to make way for “kerching!!”, or “player convenience” if you want to be gracious.

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The Draneii (name meaning, the exiled ones) came on a spaceship, fueled by the power of the deity incarnate, a Naruu. There is no question for the Draneii that the Naruu exsists (they can go and talk to and touch them) and they are in fact so devout to the light that they all got something small as an ability called ‘Gift of the Naruu’ their fastness to keeping against the oppression of the fel they got ‘heroic presence’. They kept faith in the light and refused the gift of Sargeras. This is core concepts of the ‘race’ as a whole. They don’t only believe and have faith in the light - they were litterally guided and saved by it. They are as devout as any mortal can become - for they did in truth actually see the light.

The Lightforged are a subfaction of the Draneii. These are the religious fantatic templar warriors of their faith. They are infused with the Light. They are directly linked to the will of the Naruu.

Now, you can argue there are Eredar that lack faith or believe in other gods. These are not Draneii though. Draneii is a very spesific group within the race of the Eredar. The player character is a Draneii. Now, if they rename it to Eredar and removes the passives, I don’t mind much - but do understand, this is what people mean when they say “This makes no sense, why would they accept what they litterally has fought BLOOD AND SOUL back against to repress for so long.”

Think of it like this, your family and all you know held dear was killed by a pack of wolves. You tried to fight back, yet they kept killing your loved ones and livestock. They hunted you down relentlessly. You ran away with your people, over the seas to finally escape. You thought you were safe… Then the wolves came again, they killed more and your roots was again torn apart under teeth and claw. They didn’t only kill your kin, they played with them till their final breath - if they even were allowed the release of sweet death.
You don’t even try to fight, you already failed, so you run again. By miracle alone you get to escape again. You find allies that can help you kill the wolves, you join up - for the wolves did indeed come for you again. They never relented - but they got beaten back.
In the end you had lost all but the future. Your father, slain. Mother, tortured and maimed to the point of a destroyed mind. Your brothers dead, killed infront of your very eyes. Generations of loss. All you know is the fear of wolves. Yet, now you strive to build a world where the wolves can hurt noone ever again.

Would you ever forgive the wolves? Even more out of this world, would you let them into your home? I doubt it. Not after all the horrors inflicted.

Hopefully this helps you see why it is only logical that the Holy Fanatical Templars of unyielding resolve to fight the demon, would never allow the demon to fester within their own ranks. Would their Naruu really allow it?

A main character going 'It is fine guys, it is all right - they were only “tricked” to be evil. They good now" just doesn’t work - other than in an extremely naive world. The Naruu can just go “yes, let us manipulate the stuff of chaos and bend it to our purpose. Because that has worked so well in the past.” It makes little sense to a lot of us, based on what perceptions we got of how the characters work.

Yet, in the end - anything can be done. Nothing matters. Genocide is OK, just forgive them - take care of them. Of course, let us ignore that they are demons, that they litteraly feed and the anima of the soul and the magics of the world… what wrong could this do, other than open the path to yet another fall to corruption of the fell - that they personally just fought off a few years ago.

Yeah. It is what it is. It is like the Night Elves forgiving the Horde. It is because the gameplay experience trumps lore and there are no consequences in the fantasy setting of WoW. As mentioned, the Jailer and the Shadowlands made sure to make that clear. As such, when anyone points to a lore reason, just say this: Lore died a long time ago old’ man.

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Because fel magic and demons destroyed everything the draenei had. It isn’t the same.

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Abducted and then conditioned for several millenia
Remember even Velen was stunned when he saw Argus smaller and smaller as the ship accelerated
Sargeras wanted an upper management, the Erderat to be the Legion’s commanders, leaders, because the Demons were… Demons, ineherently chaotic and individualistic
The Naruu “saved” Velen’s followers, true… because, like Sargeras, needed them! Back then Argus whas basically the most advanced magically and technologically world in the Great Dark Beyond. And what happened? Xe’ra took the Exiled Ones’s finest warriors (if you consider Thousand Years of War audio drama canon, and so far as I know it is) to be in the Army of Light… while the rest? Were constantly harassed. Travelled world to world, attracting the Legion to those world (and one even could say, made possible to the Naaru to cherrypick the best races they would save in to their Army of Light, guiding the Draenei to certain worlds and enter the secene as saviors - but that is just my headcanon)
The Naaru never were “better” than Sargeras, used the Eredar just as like the Dark Titan, but Sargeras at least kept his promise and indeed gave more power and knowledge in exchange for their loyalty, not to mention made their world the center of a basically intergalactic empire. The Legion destroyed many worlds, without question, but also conquere, not just travelled to world to world and Sargeras ate those worlds, Galactus style, but either recruited, enslaved or annihilated them. And the Eredar became Demons on their own right, the man’ari.
The Naruu only kept one “pomise” they promised that the Exiled Ones would one day be part of a grand force. You can find this in “The Burning Crusade Townhall”, an official article by Blizzard Entertainment.
But never provided them a safe home or any real protection…
…becasue they were simply unable to do it.
Sargeras considered the Army of the Light, the mighty Army of the Naaru… a joke, and the Light defeated. Mild anoyance at best
The real enemy was the Void Lords and the destruction of all life in the universe was just a standard Titanic solution to a problem. Azeroth had the Forges to wipe the Planet clean, lifeless, hard reboot, to get rid of any Void and Old God infestation, and even had/have an constellar Algalon to watch and if needed, trigger the “worldicide”
Sargeras planned the same - in his mind, even a lifeless universe was better than one dominated by the Void, for he argued that if life had once taken root in the Great Dark on its own, perhaps it would do so again
Strange, the Army of the Light’s enemy was Sargeras and… not the Void.
Makes you wonder…
Anyhow, the Eredar were quasi-immortal to begin with, many of the ones escaped Argus are still with the Draenei, the birthrate was low.
We could continnue to pluck holes in the story and lore, but the truth is, the lore died long time ago…

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I will not look a horse in the mouth if it is my only way to get out of town before the dogs drag me down. Me jumping on the horse and having it lead me to safety is not the horse abducting me.

Now, this is not a A entity is better than B question. It is a question of “are Draneii faithful and devout believers of the light?”

I do believe you too agree to the fact that they indeed are, or at least should be by the lore written as it was. If they are or not is decided by the Blizzard lore department.

Now to engage with what you wrote.

Even if the Draneii had their finest warriors at hand, they would still be kicked around by the legion. For the Legion was infinite. The best and brightest of the Eredar civilisation now leading the charge. If all the Draneii can do is run, what point is there to the Naruu to not re purpose those who are able and willing to undergo the process of Lightforging. To become tools to not only save their people, to save all life from the fires of the Legion. This while the people who can not, escapes and were guided by other Naruu following other paths.

The Naruu’s endgoal is unknown, but the Light is almost more about serenity and harmony. Acts of good. Of self sacrifice. The power to protect others. Sargeras saw to the end of all worlds. To have it all set ablaze by the Burning Legion. The end of all. The demons forced into his service are creatures of Fel. Evil. Twisted. Corrupting. They feed on the souls and magic to fuel their unquenching thirst for power. They are egoistical, willing to do anything to gain more power and pleasure.

… would I say the Naruu is the better option of the two? From my standpoint and my morality they are at worst the clear better of two evil.

The Naruu never truly lied. They tell the truth of the one path they can see ahead in the weave of time. Timelines are fickle, they are so hard to protect - some actions are needed even if they seem uncalled for, all in the name of the greater good.

There was no real enemy other than by false words of deceit spoken to Sargeras, a future shown weaved by the power of the Shadowlands. The Void Lords are not the real threat in the grand scheme of things. Zo’vald used Sargeras as a puppet to allow his plans to come into action. Sargeras was truly not fighting the Void, he was purely used to futher other actors ends. All the carnage of the Legion in all timelines and multiverses feeding the Shadowlands.

To stop the things to come, Zo’vald the Jailer, failed his task. The Warcraft Cosmos was not remade in the crucible of creation. The cosmos was not forced to serve united so it could be made to resist.

Something a lot worse than the Void is coming. The Void is just a part of the cosmos. We can only pray we are will be ready for what is to come. If there is only one path now set for the unviverse of Warcraft - perhaps, maybe… just maybe… the Naruu will now only see one end that is coming. Maybe this end is so dire that even the power of the Fel must be unleased to stand against it. Perhaps even… all the cosmic powers; Death, Life, Order, Chaos, Light and the Void; must unite to face a threat on a scale that can break the Reality Created by the First ones.

Remember, the old Warcraft Lore all died with the Shadowlands. Now, anything can happen and nothing matters. For what is any action now - but another play by play, in the First Ones grand design. It can all be shrugged off. For the past doesn’t matter. It holds no sway over the future that had its chains broken.

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I don’t see it that way. Point is, even before you could RP your character as “an expception of the exception” (like being a kind warlock; an undead b-elf paladin; a defected eredar joining the alliance), you just couldn’t make your character look that way and it was all in your head (RP-addon). Now more and more stuff like that will become possible to actually costumise.

Yes, many players who don’t concern themselves with lore will also use those options without thinking about it, but, well - in the end, other PCs (actually even your PC) aren’t canon, they are a game mechanic. There will be a lot of “exceptions” running around, but they don’t matter for the lore, but are important for the player happyness.

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Wow universe is a place where a naaru a being of pure light can turn into void gods, where mortals get turned into literal immortal demons, we even have a case of an undead (forsaken) being turned into a felhound.

Realistically there’s nothing stopping a lf from being a warlock, apart from their views and morals. Offering any race any class to the player case is more for the convinence of rp I would say.

In wow universe anyone can wield any magic really…We saw undead wielding light, red life dragons wielding arcane and more. Even if it is a one in a million chance, a lf can be a warlock.

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He had resurrections in lore but they are quite rare, Anduin actually brings back Varian once for instance.

tldr is (vanilla had a quest for explaining resurrection in a pala quest): it can only be done right after death, when the spirit is still attached to the body, and even then it is quite rare

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I mean, yeah. You can do it.

You can change, retcon and allow whatever you want in the setting.

You can make eredar playable.
You can make druid available to all races.
You can melt factions into 1.
You can change entire sections of lore to make it fit your new narrative.

But at what price?

At some point, some time, there will be a moment in time. Different for everybody, but it will arrive, all the same.

Even if some of those things are things that you yourself wanted, you bite into the content, the world that hooked you in in the first place, will taste different.

It will be stale.

And the reason it will be that way is because in your mission to enable everything you wanted and you leveled all the rules, continuities and canon, you have run the setting through a blender. It is a stale mix where once it was a bag of ingredients with all their wonderful little flavours.

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Stormwind humans are devout followers of light, they even have quote “light bless you” how there can be any warlocks in their society?
[RACE] are devout followers of [RELIGION_NAME] how there can be any warlocks in their society?
From the creators of “how orcs can be rogues they are all honorable Zug Zug” you probably think that orc mages are lore breaking.

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