Had this conversation with my friend last night of what is an rpg and does wow fit into it. This isnt about covenants, this is just curiosity as my friend doesnt actually play wow so the discussion wasn’t about it . To me when I think rpg, I specifically think of dialogue, interacting with the world, multiple character builds. And wow doesnt really fit this model for me. To me wow is closer to something like borderlands. There are multiple classes with some talent trees, you explore the world doing quests, dungeons and raids but ultimately everyone does the same thing and for the most part chase gear.
My friend however has pointed out this view of an rpg is quite flawed as there is a huge variance on this category. A-rpgs are usually rpgs in terms of deep character builds ala poe. J-rpgs are generally rpgs due to party management and sometimes time management ala persona or final fantasy. Then you have something like borderlands or darksiders that are an rpg in terms of gear and character talent trees, which personally would fall under rpg elements.
However you cant discredit that wow allows you to play in many different ways. You can be the gear chasing hero that defeats the boss. You can be the highscore pusher who goes for m+. You can be the best arena fighter around. You could even be a pet battling fisherman. Is that what an mmorpg is? A wide choice of how to play?
Im genuinely unsure how I feel on this topic anymore. Ultimately we decided genres are best used for vauge description to a newcomer instead of a way to say what the games needs or what should be implemented.
How do you feel about this? Whats an rpg to you, is wow one or is it too vauge of a term?
Note: you can obviously mention covenants if you like but this is not a power vs choice etc discussion
Not even close to other rpg games emotes are so basic in this game no character sliders no scars where you want to put them i see wow as a Esports mmo.
It’s an MMO-Theme-park with elements of an rpg.
Overly focused on e-sports which it is not, focusing on single player experience and gutted rpg aspects for the game make it very bleak rpg game, but still rpg regardless.
I mean you can still roleplay in it so it quallifies.
But is it good? Hell no.
I have characters locked into a single spec for rp reasons, and know many others who do the same. But I guess that’s not so surprising to find on a RP realm.
Not the best RP game, but for me it works. Love the unique mix of colorful and fantasy, and can spend a lot of time farming the perfect mog, mount, or whatever else I may have decided totally fits a specific character’s story and appearance.
It meets the definition MMO-RPG from a neutral-objective source (for example Oxford dictionary and etc).
Of course the “MMO-RPG” word has so many interpretations. It pretty much depends on whom you ask. A Classic player will have very different opinion than a retail player and vice versa…
The main problem in WoW are the people who think main content in WoW is daily quests and world content.
This game is about arenas, raids, battlegrounds, mythic+ and prestige (Gladiator mounts, rare achievements and so on).
If you think otherwise, you are playing the wrong mf game. I laid out the facts right here. I don’t know how that fits into the RPG genre, but there it is.
Imo tho WoW is the real RPG game and others RPGs are just games with RPG elements.
For me an RPG is a game where you (as a player) take on a role (ie Warrior, Wizard etc.) and act out that role within the framework and ruleset of the game.
It’s also about character advancement and progression, whether this is by levelling up (as in WoW) or skill progression (Like EveO) doesn’t matter. Your character gets stronger and better with new knowledge learnt and new equipment obtained.
So for me WoW is an RPG with the addition of a few non RPG elements which is fine by me as it adds flavour and diversity to the game.
I would call it an Action RPG. It still has the Everquest rpg essence at its core, just with a more modern take.
The way WoW has always approached the player as an element in the game is one of the things i liked about it, in almost every expansion bar Legion/BFA we were just an adventurer. I hated the JRPG ‘‘WOW YOURE THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD EPIC COMMANDER HERO SUPERMAN’’ of BFA.
If you want a story driven game centered around you, then there are games like The Elder Scrolls for that exact niche. But WoW isnt an RPG like that, has never been, will never be.
so no, its not an mmorpg anymore - its some competitive hack n slasher where the only thing that matters is how good you are or can push yourself to be
Their priority is to force all of the players in the game to do daily quests and play a lootbox casino simulator. Because that’s the way people stay playing the game for the longest. Mythic raids and high end arena are just the carrot on the stick. That’s what people aim for, but you have to grind for months and get screwed over by RNG in order to achieve that.
Casual players just don’t need that carrot to keep playing the game, because they think daily quests and lootboxes are content XD It’s so stupid.
But seriously, to me, any game where I assume the role of a character is a role-playing game. So things like Halo (where you play as John-117), X-Com: Enemy Unknown (where you play as the commander of the X-Com organization), Super Mario Bros (where you play as Mario), and WOW (where I play characters that I make up) are all role-playing games, but things like Go and Chess are not. But even something like Chess can be turned into a role-playing game with the addition of things like a career mode (or you can just pretend to be Garry Kasparov while playing).
I would actually agree with your friend. The term is broad enough to mean pretty much everything at this point and people tend to associate it with the games they appreciate the most.
You don’t need immersive storytelling to have an RPG, nor do you need to design, create and build your own character. Being in control of the dialogues isn’t a requirement either, nor is a massive open world.
Another thing to consider is how most games in the past 10 or 15y started implementing RPG mechanics to increase engagement or the lifespan of the game. At which point a game with RPG features become a RPG ?
An appreciated feature but I wouldn’t use it to define the genre.
In a few words i’d say that a MMORPG is a game build upon core RPG values and mechanics which allows players to interact with each others - or not - without the number of player present being limited by the content. The other players are part of the world rather than merely your party.
Unlike let’s say D3, i can go to Orgrimmar and see dozens if not hundreds of players (yeah my realm ain’t dead yet) sitting there minding their own business. I do not know them and the game can’t even handle half of that number fighting in the same area because of server lags yet here they are, massively overpopulating the area.
At the very least the MMO part is warranted because of that imo, the fact that you spend most of your time in instanced content doesn’t change that fact. One may argue that being able to interact and trade with each other is also a requirement.
I usually keep it to the basics. A RPG allows you to play a character (may be already established or created by the player) with a set of RPG mechanics (stats, gear, skills, perks, resistances ect), a progression system (levels, talents, upgrades ect) and set in a world (fantasy or not, Cyberpunk 2077 easily qualify as a RPG despite the gameplay being mostly about guns) with a set of stories and activities.
Zelda doesn’t qualify as a RPG imo but i understand that some may despite the lack of RPG features. That said you still control a character, do some RPG activities, follow a storyline and explore a world in your quests.
Surprisingly, the console Pokemon games qualify as a RPG where Zelda didn’t. That time you control creatures which have said RPG mechanics, but if a necromancer sending undeads to fight is RPG material then i don’t see why sending a magikarp fight a pikachu isn’t.
Skyrim and Witcher 3 easily qualify as one despite following a very distinct format (extreme degree of freedom VS playing a character with established lore and abilities)
Divinity Original Sin 2 is the closest game i’ve ever played to a tabletop RPG (which should be the absolute RPG reference in this debate imo). Yet it doesn’t really have an open world, the storyline is pretty linear (you have a degree of freedom but you overall do what the game wants you to do, unlike let’s say Skyrim where you can completely ignore some questlines) and the combat is turn based unlike most of the already established RPG games.
The last God of War and last two Assassin’s Creed both had RPG features being integrated in their progression despite the earlier games not having them. How should they be described ? Storytelling / Fighting game with RPG features, or RPGs with few RPG features ? In this regard Doom Eternal isn’t much different, just killing demons with shotguns rather than swords.
The issue is that the genre evolved and diversified itself to meet a broader appeal. WoW was the casual MMORPG back in vanilla, and it’s currently considered to be very grindy for a western MMORPG.
The industry changed and adapted, and the game genres ended up including more varied titles. A RPG is no longer only about an adventurer clearing a dungeon and getting some loot, nor was it ever intended to only include such games.
Wouldn’t be surprised if WoW success wasn’t directly responsible for the spread of RPG mechanics in other genre, such as the ones previously mentioned.
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So to your original question, do WoW still qualify as a RPG as in MMORPG ?
The answer is imo yes as despite how many changes Blizz make to the game we still have levels, stats, gear, skills, talents, quests, mobs dropping loot upon their death, professions, NPCs, storylines and a massive yet underused world.
Some games were described as RPGs for less than that, and how you interact with other players have absolutely no impact on that. RPGs are about you and your character, not how you interact with other players.
The fact that most of the end game content is done in instanced content doesn’t change the fact that you spent dozens of hours in the open world beforehand.
A new player could spend more than 70h earlier in BFA to reach max level, which is already more than some console games from start to finish. If that’s not relevant enough then what is ?
It started as an RPG, but it has gradually stripped away most of the elements that made it an RPG.
proper talent trees, weapon skills, language skills, full stats, first aid skill, need for potions, food, search for gear, choice of gear, level up, etc.
my effectiveness at killing monsters in various areas was based on my progress and how much I had done, how much xp I had gained in all manner of ways. now, the enemies scale to your level so it makes no difference what level you are. gear is given to you for your level and class, so no need to buy it from shops, no need to choose the right ones, no need to learn anything about your class, no need to fight enemies, just breeze through the game while everything is handed to you as you go along. when I ‘level up’, do I really level up, if every single enemy in the area also goes up at the exact same time? The answer of course is no, I have not levelled up in the sense of the phrase. i’ve only ‘levelled up’ in name alone.
Reading back, this all seems like a rant at WoW, but it’s not meant to be. all of these elements are just fine in many many games. it’s just the nature of teh beast, but does this make it an RPG? hardly.
just because you can roleplay in it, doesn’t make it an rpg. I can roleplay in minecraft or GTA or any other game. just because it has ‘levels’, does not make it an rpg. most action adventures have levels these days. just because it has equippable gear doesn’t make it an rpg, because you can buy and equip gear in so many games.
RPG’s are borne in statistics and the ability to mould your character as you go along by manipulating these various stats. even if said manipulation is grinding xp in an area to get stronger before the boss… that is still manipulation of the stats. WoW has gutted the fundamental RPG element.