Do you support Alliance genocide of Horde races?

Lore Story
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And I explained that away with how the Horde operates compared to the Alliance. Notice there was no aggression when Vol’jin was leading? Probably because the Warchief’s will is the will of the Horde.

Good thing I wasn’t directing that to you then.

Why not? Remember the War Crimes novel? The Alliance and Horde both ended up agreeing who gets it in the neck when it is time to pay.

I am pretty sure the Theramore nuke is when Garrosh began to use extreme methods and that is when people began to question him.

Well see that what it boils down to, what the moral compass of the person is when it comes to being free with other peoples lives, regardless of how noble they think the goal is. Baine decided that he did not want to risk his already dwindling people on a chest beating “not my war” parade.

I am not going to change your mind on this, but honestly? If Sylvanas is getting dung thrown at her for throwing people away for what she believes is right, then I am holding others to that same standard.

See, you and I have meta knowledge to know that his support base would have been large at that point. This is what I am talking about though, why is Baine expected to know that his views are common at that point? I mean he is just after witnessing what happened to his dad when he rushed in frothing at the mouth on a whim, so no surprise he wants to play things safer.

It is not like he has magic bones to tell him when people are lying, which also makes Anduins lack of knowledge about what is going on in the War Campaign suspect.

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While still preaching his supposed values. That’s why I dislike him, yes.

Well, her critics mostly assume that she is doing everything she does for her own personal survival and power, so the discussion isn’t quite the same.

I really don’t care about that. Even if there actually was no one in the Horde who would stand with him, I wouldn’t respect him for cowering before the majority. If he thinks that his principles aren’t shared, he could still personally lay down his claim on leadership, refusing responsibility for acts against his conscience.

I’m not saying he is badly written, I am not saying that he is a bad person, I am not saying I would have done better, but I am saying for a leader figure he is quite weak and his preaching is hypocritical, if we consider how reluctant he is about acting out his stated believes.

That doesn’t mean you cannot like him. I like Saurfang very much, and he is arguably hypocritical himself, but Baines mixture of preaching and inaction rubs me personally the wrong way.

But our discussion has gone quite a bit offtopic by now, when we consider that it started with the claim that Baine is responsible for supporting 2 warmonger warchiefs and that the Alliance should take that into account, even after Sylvanas is beaten.

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I think that is where we hit an impasse then. For me, Saurfang running off to rot in a prison while leaving the likes of Baine to try and juggle the pieces makes him far far weaker of a personality.

Do not forget that his father supported one non warmonger and he supported one as well. The Alliance will take that into account anyway, considering both the Horde and Alliance agreed on what punishment goes where thanks to War Crimes. Granted the novel was awful but it is still canon lore, for better or worse.

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I’ll resist the urge to start a discussion about Saurfang at this point and will agree to disagree.

And I hope Warcrimes would have taught everyone involved that Garrosh’s trial was a horrible idea, so that it wouldn’t be repeated… But of course, we’re talking about Blizzard…

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That’s fair, the topic has gone pretty far from asking if people support genocide or not.

Maybe they can push for it at the inevitable Hordemburg trials at the end of this expansion. I mean Sylvanas is about to axe the only one capable of defending them in a courtroom :man_shrugging:

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Even better, if they were to do it Warcrimes-style the people that was wronged the most by Sylvanas would be responsible for the process, wouldn’t it? So… a Night Elf trial with Night Elf judges? That doesn’t sound like the Horde would like the outcome very much… Or even Anduin…

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So that would be a panel consisting of Tyrande, Malfurion, Genn and Jaina. Well…It would be an entertaining read if nothing else.

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Arthas would be there as well, and would call for Sylvanas’ death. He was wronged by Sylvanas countless times!

Ok seriously, I don’t think we can have Nelf Justice without the most iconic representative of it in the series. Warden Maiev Shadowsong.

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Thats a big post

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For you. UUUU

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I SHED the blood of the hordes since countless years with great pleasure :the strong, the weak, no mercy and of those who get on my nerves if i get the chance in place like gurubashi arena etc…

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Countless years? and…How many Hordes? There is only one…although arguably that is a contentious point at the moment, So both of them? You oppose your High King? I mean that also wouldn’t be ‘Countless years’ I mean…‘Countless years’ implies a number beyond reckoning, Can you…hazard a guess? I mean that also kind of…well…Implies longer than a human lifespan, so it can’t have been on that character. Just saying.

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I’m not supporting it but I’m expecting it with Genn being as bittered as he is
If Anduin falls to darkness, Genn will fall with him

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Forced conversion into Lightforged for the Forsaken or death, I think that’s a narrative sound idea for the Alliance.

Genocide isn’t their thing really.

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We love to kill troll for sport. But so does the horde.

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You should look up the definition of genocide, because what you are describing as what they should do before saying genocide isn’t their thing is literally genocide.

“Genocide is the systematic murder or destruction of a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.”

You can destroy a group by destroying their shared identity. No murder necessary. Thats why for example what happens in China with Uigurs or Tibetans can be considered genocide without exaggerating

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:woman_facepalming: Your example is incorrect on so many levels. From being favoured in the university admissions system to being exempt from numerous laws (including restricted family sizes when it was still applied). I’m not a major fan of the ‘dress up’ the ethnic minority members have in the party congress but it’s more than any other country has……

Anyway, back on topic. Forced Conversion would be a terrible thing yes. But we can talk seriously about this, when the denialists of the Teldrassil/Gilnean genocides stop.

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Keep in mind that China’s ethnic policy is complex. Yes, minorities are treated better in some ways, but in part this is to a) butter them up and b) to make them assimilate with the Han. For example, being exempt from the one child policy actually encouraged Han to marry minorities, which of course facilitated assimilation.

But yes, forced conversion would be pretty controversial as well.

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Essentially it doesn’t really fit the Alliance narrative (as well as being impossible for gameplay reasons)
Look at the Alliance Leadership:

Anduin: Well he’s never going to allow it.

Tyrande: At this moment I -could- actually see her go for it.

Genn: His beef is with the Forsaken, specifically Sylvanas, I can see him wanting to wipe them out, not so sure of the rest of the Horde(though admittedly he was pro-extermination of the Orcs rather than Camps, but hey, so were the Blood Elves)

Council of the 3 Hammers: Only Moira I can see going for it, to be honest, so she’d be in a minority.

Gelbin Mekkatorque: I Honestly can’t see someone as basically logical and morally based as him, advocating Genocide, especially given the experiences of his people.

Velen: Nope, he ain’t going to allow it at all.

Sure and lets include the Allied Races, Moira I’ve covered,

Jaina: Well, She did try to commit Genocide -Twice- however that was directly after Theramore, I think anyone who has read ‘Tides of War’ can surely agree that she was (justifiably) not in her right mind at the time. She oversaw the pogrom in Dalaran, However: Since then she has proven able to work alongside some members of the Horde (Specifically Lor’themar) and even at the end of the Siege of Orgrimmar she was pushing for the destruction of the Horde as a political entity, not the systematic execution of them all. I don’t know, I think there is enough of old Jaina left, that she would just want the Horde neutralised as a -threat-, and not push for Genocide.

Turalyon: Can’t see it. He’s Lightforged. -Light- He can put up with his wife and her cohorts who are diametrically opposed to what he and his Lightforged stand for, so even taking the ‘Lightforged are religious extremists’ stance, they’re clearly not -that- extremist, else there would be blood on the streets of Stormwind by now. I’d say they are ‘militant’ rather than ‘Extremist’. For him to push for extermination would be very out of character for him, not to mention the schism of faith involved. He would be pushing for the death of people who are faithful in the Light.

I mean of the Horde you’ve -kinda- got Tauren: similar enough to the Faith of Light to be at the Paladin Class Order hall in Legion, even if their faith is technically An’she. You’ve got Goblins, who do -actually- have faith in The Light, it -is- their state religion. You have Blood Elves, now this is the kicker, The Blood Elves, when they were High Elves, worshipped the Light in exactly the same way as Humans. Many lost their faith, but it was rekindled by M’uru, I think it is safe to say there is some element of reverence for the Naaru therefore, I mean Liadrin’s reaction suggests this.

So a People who follow the Light, who followed it the same way Turalyon did, but then were influenced by the Naaru and Draenei influences. I think that would sound familiar enough for him to go “Aww, yeah, That me” to make him abhor the idea.

Alleria: She’d probably go for killing -some- of the Horde, but Genocide, no. Or rather, individual races she might, but not the extermination of the entire Horde, she would not go for that.

So you end up with a weird smorgasbord of views, but the prevailing one is that “No Genocide”. For it to happen, the Alliance itself would have to have a schism and split in two, at which point it becomes a moot point, because half the Alliance versus the entire Horde is not going to end up with the kind of Genocide they were hoping for…

I just can’t see it making sense.

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Half the alliance vs half the horde. The horde should have schism too.