If they are listening to the community, why are both factions going through the things they hated the most in MOP dialed to eleven?
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People with a single digit of IQ maybe, they’re generally easily entertained and their intelligence is about equal to the characters in the game!
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Then tell me who they’ve made happy with BfA. I’ll wait.
The Alliance? Who drowned in Blight at the Undercity, without gas-masks although the king who’s land was drowned in Blight was present? Same character sends you to dismantle Forsaken blight cauldrons in Stormheim, of course. “Our very assault was for nothing…”
The Horde? The Horde got saddled with the biggest atrocity in WOW history ever. No demon blood excuses this time, for burning an entire city full of civilians.
Its honorable part is hypocritical and weak, its loyalist part is a moustache twirling parody.
The night elves? I don’t really think I need to get into this one.
The Forsaken? Well, they are now a 1984. type of society, which actively persecutes the very mention of Lordaeron. How very nice.
I am sure that someone, out there, maybe, likes BFA.
Somehow.
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I like the story and my IQ is four digits 0001
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I honestly fail to see what intelligence has to do with taste.
Because the community doesn’t speak with one voice. Almost all threads in this forum lead to fight, jsut look at it. And if you try to make something right for everyone, it will just become average and please noone.
So?
If you have no concept of what makes a good story, or if you are 5 years old and just like looking at special effects and shocking moments then I guess.
If you were to say that there are certain parts of the story which are excellent then I would mind, there are certainly some good moments, but in its entirety it is some of the worst writing Blizzard has produced so far and it needs to be called out.
True, Blizzard should write a story regardless of the fans as long as it makes sense, it is logical and doesn’t wreck continuity as a bowling ball does to a bunch of pins.
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I do not see your point. The fact that a community does not speak with one voice is self-evident, we are not a hive mind. And I am not saying they should aim to please everyone.
This is not why the writing is critiqued. You can critique something without desiring it to be tailored to your own taste.
I would swallow a story even if I did not like it, if it at least made sense. And through valid, detailed, and proper critique, they pat each other’s backs and claim how everything is great.
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I think there’s more to it than the cinematics alone – but they’re definitely a big part of it.
If you take the Burning of Teldrassil, then there’s a questing experience, there’s two novels, and there’s a cinematic.
That all builds up an epic moment. Whether you’re a lore-savvy person who is extremely detail-minded, or you’re the guy who doesn’t read quest text, the story is conveyed to everyone – also through the gameplay. The emotional impact of the tree burning gets delivered to everyone.
Example:
Then players can complain all they want about Night Elves not getting enough attention, not getting their revenge, Tyrande and Malfurion being idiots, and what not.
But the production level of this storyline, for a pre-expansion event, is way beyond what we’ve ever seen before.
The best thing about is that it is relevant to the game.
This forum sometimes gets a bit too story-focused, forgetting that everything ultimately serves the gameplay. The Burning of Teldrassil is a wonderful example of that being realized, because what happens in the story has an impact on the game. Teldrassil is gone.
The books are just books. What happened to Korialstrasz was interesting if you had read the various books where he was part of the story. But in the game it didn’t really matter.
Good storytelling is when Blizzard manages to hook it into the game experience itself. And they did that exceptionally well with the pre-expansion event for BfA.
I don’t think it’s an either or – it’s both. I think that’s what’s commendable about BfA – that there’s width to the story themes.
Previous expansions had a tendency to be very single-minded in regards to what the story was about, because they often revolved around the cover-art-villain – The Lich King, Deathwing – or a race, like the Orcs in WoD or the Pandaren in MoP.
I think with Legion and BfA Blizzard have managed to create a story that has more width. There are simply more themes going on at once. I see that as a good thing, because it doesn’t come at the expense of anything. It’s just more. Patch 8.2. you got Nazjatar and Mechagon. Not one or the other, but both.
I’d also make a case for the fact that people actually do dig the epic comic themes. Again, it may not be as interesting as the intricate relationship between Tyrande and Maiev to those on the Lore forum, but the broader playerbase has an easier time keeping up with a storyline about a big bad guy who stabs a sword into a planet, or some Old Gods who do some evil stuff they’ve enjoyed in previous expansions. For example:
Ultimately, I think Blizzard are good at doing more of what they do well.
They’re good at cutscenes and cinematics, so they do more, and the fans love it. There’s been an overwhelming (I’d argue) positive response to that ever since Wrathgate in WotLK.
They’re getting better at incorporating the story into the game in a meaningful way that doesn’t feel disruptive. Again, the Burning of Teldrassil is just a solid example of transferring story to gameplay. That’s in some contrast to the days of Cataclysm when Blizzard went completely overboard with phasing to the degree that the story impacted the gameplay in a negative way. They’ve gotten that balance right today, I think.
And then they’re actually good at keeping the story intriguing and mysterious. It has that Netflix-next-episode style to it, where each patch adds the next chapter to the story. It’s very clear-cut what players have to do to follow along with the story, and I think more are aware and engaged in the story because of that.
There are also things Blizzard aren’t very good at, mistakes they keep repeating. Why devote quests to Quillboars and Bees in Stormsong Valley when there are plenty of more lore-interesting themes to explore?
If the Alliance questing experience is set-up to revolve around Jaina as a main character, why throw her in a prison and dismiss her rather than use her actively when people think she’s awesome?
There are plenty of things Blizzard doesn’t get right, but overall I think the positives outweigh the negatives. I think the biggest testament of succes to Blizzard’s storytelling team is that more people actually care about the story these days. Simply getting people to care enough to read the quest texts and not skip the cutscenes, that’s a major accomplishment.
And I think Blizzard are getting better at making people pay attention and decipher the story through their gameplay.
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Well… it is the story forum. It’s kind of obvious why the perspective would be slanted towards that.
I agree. The story-telling is better than ever. But I think that’s a mixed blessing, since it highlights the negatives as well as the positives, plot holes as well as emotional depths. And since I don’t really care about the emotional moments, but more about the story and character consistency over time, they can be an enjoyable experience, while also destroying the story for me. If you shine a spotlight on something, you don’t just reveal the good parts.
And indeed, I think looking at it closely, things like the story of TBC weren’t much better at all. But they were less accessible, so it was harder to notice the flaws that seem so glaring now.
I don’t really think you do, if you also write stuff like " Why devote quests to Quillboars and Bees in Stormsong Valley when there are plenty of more lore-interesting themes to explore?". Quillboars and bees are exactly the local problems I would want to see explored with some depths. I don’t think choosing quillboars as an enemy was a bad choice. I think not bothering to give them any personality or reasoning was. I do not think making a questline about giant bees is a bad idea. I do think not tying it into the problems of the region is.
The width is appreciated. The main storyline that connects the different areas is the point that people here have a problem with. There is a reason you don’t see much moaning about Mechagon. It can easily be enjoyed without having to swallow the factions changing the state of the war.
Well, I guess statistics would be relevant here, and we don’t have those. My personal experience very much conflicts with that, I can honestly say I don’t know anyone who thinks it is all in all a good story personally, but in a game of hundreds of thousands to millions that’s not very much.
I agree. And I think this is a horrible fit for an MMO where there are months and months between “episodes”. I can only speak for myself, but I am long since at the point where I just want it over with, and don’t have much of an investment in anything specific that could happen anymore. I don’t think that’s the intended effect.
That is only a good thing, if they actually enjoy te game more because of that. Not so sure about that myself.
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Oh, don’t get me wrong. I actually like the local population’s problems as well. The focus of the zone is just all over the place. It has Old Gods, Horde, and Naga. It’s a bit weird to then make the primary concern of the local farmer the nearby bees. The width in themes was already there, and bees don’t really add more to it I think.
Sure, I can agree with that.
I’m not sure how other MMOs approach the over-arching storylines. What’s the alternative?
I mean, Blizzard have always done it this way. The only difference now is that they’re keeping the future a secret. In WotLK you knew you’d end up fighting The Lich King – he was on the cover! Same with Deathwing in Cataclysm. It was very predictable for a time. Now it’s not. I guess that breeds some impatience, like Blizzard teasing players with something unknown (like the Azshara cinematic not revealing much). But again, what’s the alternative, besides outright spoiling things?
The nature of the game, the time it takes to produce content, simply makes it a slow process.
Nah, I don’t think it can be redeemed honestly. Most of the damage has already been done.
I wish they could however tone down with the entire cosmic/champion thing. While I love cosmic storytelling, plots and horror, Blizzard executes it poorly.
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As far as I can tell… the ones that are praised for their story have a kind of single-player story centered around the hero and the personal relations he has with his team. I’m looking at things like FFXIV, the SWTOR class campaigns and what I heard about GWII for that. The player is much more of a story driver, and not so much a recipient waiting for stuff to happen. I think that makes quite a lot of difference.
Classic isn’t that way, no. Every patch was a different story thread and there wasn’t much of a connection. And I don’t really remember holding my breath to see what any npc was planning in most other addons, either. The story has become much more NPC-driven than it ever was, if you ask me. There was a time when it was a memorable occurence that faction leaders did anything more than stand around and give you a quest.
Next to making the plot about the player and not the NPCs… Not having an overarching plot at all, really. I don’t think an MMO needs one. A world to explore, and contained little plots for every raid, dungeon, and possibly zone, next to some nice little extra stories are enough.
Sure. I played SW:ToR a bit, so if it’s still like that, then I can relate. 
I don’t know if it would work for WoW. I mean, WoW’s story legacy is probably Warcraft III. That was the excitement for many going into WoW, to carry the storylines on from the RTS games. They wanted those stories to play out with them as “anonymous adventurers”, not as the story-defining characters – Illidan and Arthas already occupied those roles.
I think it’s the same today. It’s cool fighting alongside Jaina or Saurfang. Fighting instead of them would probably deflate a lot of the story appeal of Warcraft.
But the over-arching story plot comes naturally as time goes on.
I mean, when Blizzard made Uldaman and put those Discs of Norgannon in there, they pretty much sowed the seeds for a story-arc that would ascend to a cosmic scale. That was the story scope Blizzard decided to have for WoW, so as time has gone on – 15 years! – they’re naturally forced to explore it in more detail.
Personally I like it. I love the fact that some plots are so many years in the making, that the game has time for it. I’m glad to enjoy the ride, however long it is.
Not really, no. They screwed this up, at best they can do damage control now with an amazing and totally unexpected finale which somehow leaves all sides halfway satisfied and gives the overall moronic plot something resembling sense and meaning.
The suspense is there, I won’t deny it, but it’s more that I’m excited to see if the promised “thrilling conclusion” can be anything but another big joke on the players who really care for the story.
I’m sure the final battle will be epic though, same for the cinematics 
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And I’d be perfectly fine with it. Make it about the adventures of the anonymous adventurer. But they didn’t. In BfA we are constantly following NPCs around, and it is seriously questionable if we are actually there in lore at all. There is a reason, why we aren’t in the Crossroads-Cinematic: We aren’t needed to tell the story. It’s about Jaina, Shaw, Thrall and Saurfang saving Baine, not the nameless champion. We jump from quests where we decide on rebelling with Saurfang to quests where we fight at Darkshore in Sylvanas’ war. More and more we are a tool to show the story, instead of a real part of it. Yes, anonymous heroes were the ones who defeated raid bosses in the past. Now it’s often lore characters, and we are at best extras.
Even worse, this comes just after we had an addon where they actually went in the direction that other MMOs did: They made us head of a special unit and gave us our own team that we could get to know. They gave us a clear place in the world. And that was just fully ignored in BfA. We don’t even hear about the orders we led…
I really don’t see that. They could have left it a mystery that we continuously learn more tidbits about. I really never wanted to face gods. I really found the titans much, much more intriguing when they were mysterious shapers of everything. Meeting them totally diminished them for me.
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Yeah, and that worked…for a time.
I think Blizzard have explained it some times, that it doesn’t make sense for you to continue being anonymous when you’re handing over the third dragon head to the king. At some point the characters in the game have to recognize who you are, and thus you become someone in the story.
Then there’s of course a discussion to be had in regards to where the spotlight should shine – on the NPCs or the player.
And personally, I quite like that the iconic Warcraft characters are those the story revolves around. I don’t want the Warcraft story to be about me. I want it to be about Jaina and Arthas and Thrall and so on. They’re the ones that got me into the Warcraft story in the first place! If my character can have a little story progression alongside that – as an adventurer, champion, hero, pawn, and so on – then I’m good.
Yes, they could. But then they made C’thun, and then the expectation was sort of raised a bit above the occasional dragon or elemental lord.
Hindsight is always easy, but to me the story seems to have evolved quite naturally. Blizzard have introduced some story tidbits here and there, and then players have taken to it and desired more. And so they’ve gotten it.
Part of it probably stems from gameplay desires – that it’s awesome to fight these epic creatures and powerful enemies – and so the story just has to tag along.
The story serves the gameplay as the gameplay serves the story.
I’m okay with that, too, though less so. If we are superheroes, go full steam on the Legion-route and make it our story. Make us the only ones with the power level to solve the world’s problems and let the faction leaders be dependent on us. If we are to be the heroes that slay the dragons that no one else can touch, then make it so. But while we are at dragons… Onyxia is a great example of an NPC-killsteal. Something we killed in the game, but was killed by Varian in Lore. We were never there.
So they were indeed willing to ignore our deeds back then and could havve left our role anonymous and underdefined.
And I really don’t want to play a role-playing game where the story isn’t about me. This isn’t a novel and this isn’t a movie. I expect to be the one catered to, here. I’m quite ok with novels and external media excluding me and telling different stories. I’m not okay with the game doing it. And I do think it is a gross misunderstanding of the medium to try to use it like a novel or a show.
Did that really raise the expectations, though? I mean, we didn’t have a comparison for power, Old Gods were a new thing, and calling it god doesn’t make it one, and we only ever fought back a part of it anyways. Void Gods as agents of some Void Lords that were trying to destroy the universe, and old gods influencing about every major political event wasn’t a thing before the chronicles, really. They were pretty mysterious and most of their respect came frome Lofecraft-comparisons that they didn’t have to take up, really.
I disagree. It evolved in big jumps whenever they figured out what they thought would be a cool next addon.
I can see the first part, but I sure as heck can’t see the second part of that.
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Sure, I don’t particularly mind that. I just like that the iconic characters are also there. Again, I don’t think it has to be an either or. But if it has, I’d prefer it being about Jaina and Thrall, rather than Jito and Wimbert. 
And who knows, with BfA it may still go the way of us being the (tragic) hero, with all those N’zoth whispers, the Heart of Azeroth, and so on. Though less prevelant compared to Legion, our characters do still occupy a center role in the story I think.
Sure. But I’ll defend the merits of the BfA story for now, not the story of old.
I can’t recall, but wasn’t it due to the re-introduction of Varian, the comics, and Blizzard needing to quickly establish him in the lore in a way people could relate to? I think they snuck it in because of that, and the way quests, story, and patches were implemented back then didn’t really allow for much else I reckon’.
But it was hardly ideal, and it wouldn’t be acceptable today either. The game should obviously strive toward the gameplay corresponding to the story, and vice versa.
I think they’ve made good progress toward that end as well. Like, if you take the early cutscenes like the Wrathgate, then it’s just a static cutscene. If you take today’s cutscenes, like the recent one where you ride with Kalecgos to find Alexstrasza, then your character is actually part of it now.
They’ve made some technical advancements over the years that help bind the gameplay and story closer together, so we don’t have those weird situations of NPCs doing something in the story that they didn’t do in the gameplay.
Slightly brass to say perhaps, but there are plenty of RPGs that offer the character-centric story - apparently. Like you said earlier, then most other MMOs approach their stories that way. So go play those? I for one like that WoW does something different, in part because it appeals to me, but also because I think it works for better for the Warcraft story.
But won’t you agree that players have always incrementally raised their expectations?
I’ve killed Kel’thuzad? Okay, now give me Arthas! Who’s still avaliable in the Warcraft leftover box? Azshara? When can I fight her? Who’s the big baddie? Sageras? When does he show up?
The requests and desires never go in the other direction. And I think that’s perfectly normal.
Yeah, but that’s also natural.
I recall an interview (I think in the wake of the 10 year anniversary) where the developers said that they initially thought WoW would have a 5 year life-span, so they developed with that in mind. That’s why they were quick to throw Illidan and Arthas and Kael’thas out there, because they didn’t think the game would maintain player interest much beyond that.
If they knew they had 15+ years to work with, they probably would have approached much of the story differently. But again, hindsight and all that…
That the gameplay serves the story?
I’d say that the Illidan encounter in TBC was a gameplay-driven encounter. People wanted to fight Illidan, so Blizzard turned him into a cool boss. But that was all it was. It didn’t really serve any purpose beyond just being a boss encounter in a raid. Story-wise there was very little going on.
On the other hand you have something like the Jaina encounter in BfA. That’s very story-driven.
Whereas Illidan was a scripted encounter that showed off cool gameplay mechanics, then Jaina is a scripted encounter that shows off cool story moments - naval pursuit, showdown, escape.
I think Blizzard are better at choosing who to use for bosses and such now, and in what manner, depending on what they want to achieve in terms of story.
In the old days it felt more like the rule-of-cool was the only guiding principle. Story weighs more heavily now, I think.