DPS Warrior in M+ - "Why would I take a warrior?"

Classes Warrior
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Hello again Devs and everyone. I wanted to share some thoughts about warrior in M+, and their place in dungeons.

Disclaimer: Firstly, I would like to mention that I have mained a rogue for Season 1 of Dragonflight. (I’m a melee player, but my go to classes change from season to season to change up my experience). Having said that, I do decently high keys, I’m currently progging Mythic Dathea with my guild and I stay active in the community to know as much as I can about the game. But I’m not a wizard at the game so take this how you will :slight_smile:

Main point around this post: Sharing my thoughts on why I and others don’t want to invite a DPS Warrior to my group unless there are very specific situations.

  • Warriors in my opinion are not useful in an M+ environment because the only things they bring to the group are: Battle Shout, Damage, A single Target Stun, and very rarely an aoe interrupt in the form of Intimidating Shout (if talented).
  1. Leaving the “Meta” out of this post, I don’t see a reason why a warrior should be in a group that is not HEAVILY physical damage based.

How did this problem start? With Protection warrior being in a great spot (mostly too strong for season 1 actually), the “need” for Battle Shout on a DPS Warrior was out of the window.

  1. Damage and minimal CC: I’m a believer that every class can do high M+ content up until a certain point (Probably +24 keys) - where the “meta” actually helps you more so than taking a “off-meta” class.

You would think this means you can take anyone into a key, but the problem is that there are certain slots that NEED to bring something. Usually in the form of Lust and Combat Ress. This is especially true for Pugs.

  1. Every class has damage that can be useful when played well. So that means you wouldn’t take a warrior anyway for damage only. Now when you pair that with Lust and Combat Ress, that becomes a big problem for DPS Warrior.

Many people say that Engineering Ress + drums would fix that issue. That’s a mindset that helps only the individual that plays the warrior or whatever class to make their class feel more worth it and add utility. The problem is both of those items are at a big disadvantage. Drums is 15% instead of 40% Lust. Engineering ress can fail (you can reduce the failure chance but again, its down to RNG if that’s gonna happen)

  1. Now the only thing they can bring is Stormbolt (single target stun) or Shockwave (aoe stun for 2 seconds). I won’t get into values and how much damage you actually lose for an aoe stun, which already makes it unattractive for anyone that wants to be competitive

However, other Melee can bring other utilities to the table that are much better. Combat Resses, Shaman brings lust (freeing the choice of taking Monks/Priest/druid healers). Meanwhile, Warrior is just there for damage and that’s about it.

Suggestion? Thematically, it makes sense to give warrior Lust. Now before you call me delusional, hear me out.

  • Theme is there already. A warrior motivating their fellows to charge into battle. With all the shouts, it just fits in my opinion.

  • Currently there are 2 healers, 2 ranged and 1 melee that bring Lust. 3 Melee bring CR, 2 Ranged Bring CR, 2 Tanks and 2 healers. It makes sense to give Lust to warrior to increase the flexibility of the groups. So 2 melee can have lust.

I think this is worth having a chat about. Both on here and Blizzard Devs internally. I believe adding Lust to a warrior won’t “remove” anyone from getting into keys.

What about Monk, Rogue and DH?

Monk: Huge defensive, can talent into a statue taunt (although they lose damage), Ring of peace, Aoe stun, Slow on Flying Serpent Kick without having to lose anything. Disease Dispel, Paralyse (incap)

Rogue: Poisons to reduce damage, infinite CC, Shroud, cloak, Distract, Sap, huge defensive, immunity, Tricks of the trade to give agro to tanks

Demon Hunter: unkillable, AOE stun, Imprision (incap), AOE stun on Meta, Slow on throw glaive, Silence Sigil on Tanks, Fear Sigil on DPS+Tank, Immunity, Darkness

Any other melee has Combat Ress or Lust.

4 Likes
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Great post with good points. Yet you are underselling warriors too. Not saying warrior is top pick in PuGs, yet you forget to point out certain things:

  • Warrior do bring Rallying Cry, a defencive perfect for boss overlaps or to take that one more shriek stack safely.
  • Warriors are unkillable (you mention that for DH, it is also true for warrior, especially Fury Warrior).
  • Warrior got one of the shortest interupt casts, allows a warrior to solointerupt focus casts.
  • Spell reflect breaks mechanics and fights. Try SR the Elemental in Nokud, or imps in CoS. Have your team not interupt your reflects for huge value - from mobs CCing to blowing themselves up. Don’t sleep on spell reflect.
  • Warrior can bring a tether (spear), effective slow spread, AoE stun, ST stun and AoE Fear. Shockwave isn’t that big of a DPS loss - check Skyhold for more information. It just isn’t optimal for the warrior - but a very viable option when you lack AoE stops in the comp.

In the end though in M+ is mostly is about what does right form of damage for the content you are doing. Then also how much damage a class can take and how much it can cheeze. Warrior is excellent at taking and doing damage, with very solid cheeze. So you even see Fury warrior competing with top end in m+.

By giving warrior heroism/lust it might help the lower end warriors to get into groups and do keys, yet there is no need to do so to fix warrior. Warrior is simply not broken.

2 Likes
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I take it as you are not playing warrior and pugging m+ to understand this.
Your point is only focused on Fury warriors but what about Arms?
I’m main Warrior Arms and I suffer already with DPSing and still can’t give any other utility to help the team like Shockwave or Stormbolt when needed in these situations.

So I strongly disagree with you about giving warrior heroism/lust will lower the end for warriors in general and do keys. Because if we see the hunters gets invite is because of the BL and yet they die like paper but they get invites eventually easier than a Warrior.

The OP’s point is valid because if you do in high keys, the team needs to think about utilities. Bringing Warrior into the key is only because of rallying shout. For example I get invited to a AA 21+ and the keyholder was a Healer. We timed it finely and healer begged me to use Rallying on 4th stack on Bird boss because majority will forget to use their personal Cds and that’s about it. But I rarely get invited to AA 22 because it doesn’t need rallying out of the sudden.

Warrior is not broken, but it needs tweaking and implement Shockwave/AoE fear without losing additional DPS. I played Warrior during whole Legion and I had shockwave every single time and it was life saver. Now when it’s gone I feel like I don’t contribute anything other than interrupting or doing DPS. So I need to be a protection Warrior to do it?

Even the DPS is the struggle itself if you don’t have BiS Slots or raid alot to be able to get trinkets at 421. While a meta class who is 410 ilvl do almost same similar DPS as me ( 418 ) if they are lucky. Which is unfair. In situations where Bosses is unreached to DPS because you need to step outside the ring meanwhile Casters can load 100k easily and chilling.

2 Likes
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They gutted some of our utility to put it in the new talent trees without giving us anything in our basekit to compensate.

As fury I have to drop points in dps nodes to pick stormbolt or aoe fear meanwhile on my enh shaman I can have 3 aoe stuns on short CDs and do the same dps.

Fury doesn’t even have good uncapped aoe anymore, like ravager which is absolutely awful because how slowly it starts following the mobs, I would rather keep bladestorm in this case at least it was fun to play.

Roar or Spear aren’t better either, roar is just a boring with no real interactions and spear is annoying because of the visual and the dmg isn’t even that good.

Idk, I used to love playing warrior in the first two seasons of SL but now I want it changed already and the first season isn’t over yet.

1 Like
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Completely agree we should have at least BL and our stun been diferent like we stun only 2s but more often. I think we have nice defensives cds to but aour cc are really bad, fear is horrible and is on global cd i dont know why bc u are just using your voice not ur hands to do it. storm bolt is great but i prefer to have Shock wave i mean i kind of need it to push keys higher bc i never get invited to plus 24 - 25 if they see a dh even if my dps is really close to a good dh. Then BL is a must to warrior if we need to pug.

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Nah he is not underselling warrior u are over selling warrior thats why ur m+ score is not high. Point by point.

  • Warrior do bring Rallying Cry, a defencive perfect for boss overlaps or to take that one more shriek stack safely. ( a good healer dont need it is just litle life extra ) it is focus on raid not on m+.
  • Warriors are unkillable (you mention that for DH, it is also true for warrior, especially Fury Warrior). ( we are really tanky thats true but others clases can do it so nothing especiall)
  • Warrior got one of the shortest interupt casts, allows a warrior to solointerupt focus casts. (same rogues shamans dh can do it same nothing better here)
  • Spell reflect breaks mechanics and fights. Try SR the Elemental in Nokud, or imps in CoS. Have your team not interupt your reflects for huge value - from mobs CCing to blowing themselves up. Don’t sleep on spell reflect. ( u can get value from that but is not determinating in m+ enviroment)
  • Warrior can bring a tether (spear), effective slow spread, AoE stun, ST stun and AoE Fear. Shockwave isn’t that big of a DPS loss - check Skyhold for more information. It just isn’t optimal for the warrior - but a very viable option when you lack AoE stops in the comp. ( on a m+ mentality u CANT lose any dps and and why would my class lose dps when others dont end)
    You are not getting the idea ofc u can do a 28 key with a warrior but why will you invite a warrior when others clases do it much more better this is the whole post about. And last im currently over 3k score m+, and BL and aoe stun would help me alot bc i cant push further more if i cant get invited in to a group we are talking only about been more atractive to be taken in to a group.
1 Like
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Cant see the problem bro. Why makes sense to have a pet thats gives BL than a warrior, for real a pet?, and the problems stills on on high keys getting a warrior is loosing someting on utility.

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Cause they are absolute dogpoop, they have 10 deaths already in first 3 minutes of m+ dungeon. Worst dps class for m+ since Legion.

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We both agree that warrior is in a good spot then. We just disagree to what extent.

If you are 3k with all these handicaps, surely if you got into a team and worked around what you bring - you would be 3.4k shortly. Personal attacks now done with and that jazz…

I don’t think I am overselling warrior at all. There is in no world where you will call rally useless and impactless in a m+ enviroment. I can’t believe a fellow warrior would do so. Nor do you really think spell reflecting millions of damage is pointless in m+, that not including the mechanical breaks. Sure it will not break the m+ meta, it will make the key you are in.

Most classes lose some DPS output to bring pure CC, there are exceptions, yet they should be balanced around that. If you are trying to tell me that warrior with stormbolt/intimidating can not push out DPS, I think we will just agree to disagree. It really is not a problem.

Now all the horseshoes thrown into a heep, your final point. Why bring a warrior for a 28 PuG? Well, you most likely would not - because, why bring a PuG when you can bring a premade from the players you met while pushing.

So I am sure if you went more the networking and premade style of content at your level, you would see far better success. Can not promise, as it is a bit of luck and social skills, and networking is not the easiest thing to do. Just know it is not the warrior class that is holding you back.

I honestly wish you the best getting to top 0.1 this season for the title! You go warrbro :sparkling_heart:

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DPS warrior has it bad, but for arms it’s even worse. you spend the first 15 sec of a pull in a bladestorm where you cant kick nor stun…

Anyway, any bit of utility (that does not compete with our dps) would help improve our group desirability.

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Thanks man for the reply, the true is we need a team to push score because pugs experience is really bad.

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And other classes bring, BL, CR, dispells, purges, tons of stuns, silences, mobility breaks, and on top of that same if not higher amount of damage.

Every class is unkillable once you understand how deffensives work, sure warriors have a bit easier time and as a class are more forgiving to understanding. That is as I see it only real benefit of playing warrior.

So does BOP, and Aspect of Turtle, Ring of Peace, Faint Death etc. difference is that to “break mechanics” as a DPS warrior you in a lot of cases need to taunt of bosses from tank use spell reflect and let tank taunt of boss of you again, that is higher level of play most even coordinated groups will not bother with. Doing this in your normal PUG 20s and higher will 100% lead to your death, or can wipe group. Sure highest ranked players will use this to give advantage to their group, but nobody in range of 20-23 will ever bother with that.

Spear is only used as damage ability, it damage gains in 6 sec make its use outside Avatar/burst windows unjustifiable.

For me builds with shockwave sim 10-15k lower then builds with spear or with roar. Its huge dps loss.

Fury warriors often go in combination with Shaman and Priest, reason for that is that windfury and PI give fury warrior ability to play in next patch every single pull because of how much rage it will produce during that window.

I am curious what you consider “lower end” because I am on almost 2800 that puts me in top 2% fury warriors and I have very hard time joining groups entire season.

1 Like
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Hi,

By lower end I mean anything bellow the 3k area (would argue 3.2k at this point). That including myself at 2.8 as well (the we do weeklies, and dont push, bracket). I am having no issues getting my weekly 21-22s done, and I more often get invited more or less instantly. So could be that we play at different times or another weird unknown factor.

To the shockwave issue, did you only move only two talents to get shockwave? On my sims on 5 targets, 5 minutes, that was -6k DPS loss. 155k to 149k, or said as a 4% total output loss. That is acceptable for the trade off if the AoE stop is needed in your comp. Again, you know as well as I, the math has been done on Skyhold and it is acceptable even if it is not optimal.

You can argue that other classes got things that do A or B, warrior still got C. C is really efficient and impactful. You know this, you play warrior. Could be that you sit with an impression of that not being the case, yet I promise you - warrior is in a really good and solid spot at the moment.

I am bit confused that you are saying Fury Warrior is not particular tanky compared to other DPS specs. Between our damage reduction and selfsustain, we will be standing when everyone else is dead. This includes all but the cases where only an immunity would save you.

It feels to me a lot of people want to believe warrior is a lot worse off than it really is, even when that is not the case.

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That is rly high level, we are talking top 0.1% less if we consider 3200. If me and you being 2%, its easy to calculate that most people play in 2000-2400 bracket, playing mostly 16-18keys and occasional 20.

You should not balance game around top 1% of players.

Ok cool now do the same for single target. Also once you go in higher keys loosing 6k damage is huge issue. I play shockwave in lower keys when helping friends, I am not going to pick it when I push keys.

And what is C I wonder?

There is not a single thing you can say DPS warriors are best in game, this is what this thread is about. Spell reflect utility that is very situational and demands a lot of planing and a lot of skill in its execution.

Its much better to bring Paladin or Hunter Rogue, who will brake more mechanics, allow massive skips, or have BL and CR in their kit on top of that do more damage.

What I said is that good players of other classes will not die because they know how to use thier CDs, warriors are much easier to learn in that regard and I said are a lot less punishing.

I mean, you can not rly change opinion of the people who are not getting invited into keys, and tell them “oh your class is super cool on higher end”. For months, people are saying that there is a issue with warrior utility, not because they simply want more, but because they are not getting invited into keys, and they in many cases cant make compositions work because of warrior’s lack of utility.

Other classes simply bring more stuff, you can argue that warrior being survivable is actually very important for group composition because that will let healer breath a little especially during huge AOE damage encounters, but not many people will think about that when making group.

What you need for a good PUG group is strong AOE CC, CR and BL, you are not making group without that, and warriors without shockwave are only class that does not have any of this things and rest of their utility or damage rly does not make good argument for “bring me”.

Just bringing Shockwave into easier to pick position in talent tree or buffing it so it can do comparable damage. Or making Avatar baseline so you can actually have freedom in your choices when it comes to last part of the tree would be very cool, and massively benefit warrior design long term.

1 Like
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You are simply ignoring or not convinced by my arguments. Either is fine. If you truly believe warrior is in such a state, then nothing anyone says will change your mind. Be it Fury Warriors doing top end content atm, or that 4% dps loss is better to bring in the cases where not having it would mean death. You say that spell reflect usage being too skillfull to use, our kit being too much skill to efficiently use and so on is a problem… I don’t see those as issues with the spec - only the players.

A lot of popularity from specs come from meta set by the MDI and that jazz, they don’t know why funnel classes are so powerful in those runs and not in their PuG keys. Yet, they will follow that religiously. Even if bringing a Fury Warrior would in 9/10 cases be better than the classes mentioned for their level and way of play. You can top DPS and do all the stops in the world, they still would spit you in the face - because you were not brought for the MDI. As such you are not meta.

What you need for PUG group as stated by you:

  • AoE CC: Warrior got intimidation shout and shockwave.
  • CR: Engi.
  • BL: Drums -but of course that is not really an option. Yet, most PuGs already got a hero class, and you still wont be brought. Because Fury is not a meta class.

If people do not want to bring one of the strongest and most consistent on any pull size DPS in the game, that also are (even if you deny it) the most tanky option to bring - well, that is a popular issue, not a class issue. The problem is more sprouted from people complaining about weaknesses that are not there, than the class actually being weak on those points. Fury is weak and unpopular, because people say and think it is. Not because it is as such in matter of fact.

Now, to humor you. Why do I not bring warriors into my own keys if they are so great? Simply put - warriors are the type of player who will whine and refuse to take a 4% damage loss for an AoE stun when it is needed to get the job done. A warrior will refuse to take his short CD pummel, fear or ST stun, because it is a point one overall DPS loss. One bad pull where they don’t feel they got to minmax, they will tantrum and might even leave outright. You get my point. Extreme as it is, I seen it happen far too many times. So now I avoid that issue by not taking that chance. Player, not class issue. In this case, a personal gripe of mine and nothing to do with the spec.

Longterm, next expansion we will have even more talent points, and as such more options. Hopefully by then people’s view on Warriors in general will have changed to be more accepting.

I am certain things will pan out.

1 Like
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Exactly, and this means that you will have harder times joining into keys. So around around we go and we came to same conclusion this discussion was started around.

Warriors are not getting invited into keys, and you now admitted that.

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God, if only there were more people that thought like you did.

It’s so rare to have groups think of the health and group benefits outside of the MDI meta. Not like I do content anywhere near where it matters, but the mindset happens even where it shouldn’t matter.

Which is incredibly frustrating.

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i always read people saying spell reflect is broken. i dont know any specific spell of the m+ dungeons that i can reflect. all boss abilitys deal dmg to you anyway. only good thing about spell reflect is, that it is a 20% magic wall on a very short cd. but it does not break any mechanics. or am i wrong here?

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Hi,

There is a ton of things to reflect. Here is a community driven list of what you can deflect and reflect:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vS26lkSc_eaulHX7-UY8Uu-7DAHvkScxh3npd0kQn3uvvWsgsQm9ducLUi4R2mb7ieNluVilyq5sQe5/pubhtml#

With reflect you can do anything wrong absorbing tankbusters, reflecting chainlightning to delete packs, reflect long duration stuns, and so much more.

If you haven’t tried - I really recommend learning how to and start reflecting the imp packs in CoS as an example (You can also taunt/reflect the succubi, if they dont want you to do imps). Or the Taunt Reflect dance on Nokud 2nd and 4th boss. You basically gains 10-20% free damage and remove a ton of things from the table. 1st boss temple, you gain a lot of free damage from reflecting, you can reflect the monk DoT, the first boss hits, the Doubt tankbusters and so much more.

Use this to its potential and you will soon realise why warriors are so annoyed when their SR gets stopped. Why those warriors preach the good word of SR and why SR is in fact a broken tool.

1 Like
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One of the big reasons why Prot/Warriors are pretty wanted tbh! I tank on my Warrior and after looking into a big list of reflect-able abilities and spells, a lot of my casual M+ runs have become a breeze.

CoS Imps and Succubi are the most fun, but when a boss has any kind of Tank-deleting Magic ability, destroying that outright makes that fight much much easier. Only had a problem with that with ToJS 3rd boss, due to her jade dragon phase being unable to be reflected back.

I don’t imagine DPS would immediately think about using it though, but i’ve had clever instances where they’ve saved me by taunting and reflecting at the same time.