it feels EXTREMELY bad to NEED to choose abilities in order to keep abilites you had previously baseline and that are mandatory (Cyclone, Interrupt / Skull Bash etc.) - those costs not one, but because of the need to pick mandatory talents in the direction multiple talent points, further amplifying the effect of baseline abilities prunned
it feels EXTREMELY bad to need to spend talent points on something you don’t want and then you don’t have enough talent points to spend them on some fun abilities
it also feels bad to spend talent points on utility spells (especially when it costs more than one talent point) - Soothe, Hibernate etc.
fun competing against strength (basically choice between Critical strike and Hibernate ? WTF) feels bad - you’re forced to pick strength to perform and then you have no fun
too many boring talents (X % damage increase)
too many baseline abilities got REMOVED
CLASS tree is so much worse and feels super bad, when there is utility competing against damage / healing output
NET RESULT is hardcore prunning of Shadowlands classes, so you just end up with worse version of Shadowlands character. I don’t find that fun.
Idk with the lets just see how it works approach. They’ve messed it up 3 times already in a row and by now a lot of people are not really buying it anymore. Also feedback is feedback and Blizzard actually asked for feedback this time so if people want to give it to them then the official forums are the place to do it.
Edit: Also you don’t have to click on threads that you don’t want to read. Whenever I see any twiluna thread I just auto skip it because I know that there won’t be anything that would interest me. So just scroll past them.
The thing is, all of OP’s points are made from the perspective of playing Shadowlands, not Dragonflight. It would be pretty boring if the game play just felt exactly the same.
Edit:
Who said I didn’t want to read it? This is a discussion forum. I have something to bring to this discussion.
Bringing a postive outlook to new changes in the game is better than bringing the fear of making any changes at all.
Ask yourself why ask questions if you don’t want answers and reflect on your stupidity.
PvP is roughly the same since I started playing in Cataclysm. Do I think PvP will be magically different when for example Ferals cannot have Hibernate? No. Mostly not.
It’s going to be less fun.
And that’s my feedback. If you don’t like it then go spam somewhere else.
PVP or M+ or Raiding, having a good shake up on what abilities are available to you isn’t a bad thing at all.
Having to make a sacrifice by spending points to get 1 ability, at the cost of another ability in a different tree, is part of your decision making. Otherwise you would just be picking all the BIG HIT abilities.
I don’t like your feedback on it. I think you are just reacting on primal instincts rather than considering it as a huge overhaul of the game play and talents system that it actually is.
Telling someone to “spam somewhere else”, when they are bringing a different perspective on the topic to you, isn’t really creating a discussion.
At the end of the day, nobody is really going to get a really feel for how this is going to work until we get to try it out in the context of Dragonflight game.
Having to sacrifice 6-7 points to get mandatory ability you previously had baseline feels bad.
I don’t like your feedback on my feedback.
It’s not overhaul, if I play the same spec, the same way just with less abilities and less utility.
That’s incorrect. I am capable of removing abilities and conduits from my my action bar (or soulbind) even know, effectively testing the dragonflight design. I am also able to test ability selections.
Also Blizz asked for feedback even NOW. So it’s idiotic of you to tell me I shouldn’t provide it. Especially if you keep mentioning how blizz surely knows what they’re doing. If they do, why don’t you listen to them?
Having mandatory talents is not criticism of the talent tree system, rather it shows a severe misunderstanding of how it is supposed to work. Mandatory talents are good.
Diablo 2 still has the best talent tree system I have ever seen, and depending on your build, your mandatory talents are pretty clear cut. In fact, what makes it so good is that it’s very easy to identify what you NEED to pick up to make a good build.
This is not a criticism of the system, but rather a feature.
Also, splitting the main tree into 4 clear columns is also good, as it will help newer players navigate the tree more naturally, which is a good thing.
You’re not playing the spec at all at the moment. It’s not in the game yet.
But you are playing it in the context of Shadowlands, not Dragonflight.
You are also not taking into considerations of the balancing these abilities will go through over the next year or so, of the Alpha and Beta testing.
I’m not the one telling you not to provide feedback. I’m just providing Feedback on your Feedback. Hoping that you’ll grasp that we won’t really get an understanding of how it will work until we’re in the context of Dragonflight.
I am giving feedback on how the class and talent trees feel. Not how the content feels.
Why would I?
Having or not having Hibernate isn’t down to balance.
Blizzard ask for feedback on talent trees.
I didn’t ask for your feedback on my feedback.
You don’t react to any of my criticizm. You just criticize me providing feedback.
And I am saying if we refer back to the tried and true - Diablo 2 and WoW’s old talent trees, both of which work great - your criticism shows a misunderstanding of how the system is supposed to work.
In Diablo 2, navigating the paths around the skills included picking up skills you’ll never use. It’s just how it was. Same with WoW - you would put a talent point in a skill just because you need to get to the one its linked to. It’s part of how the system works.
It’s also good to make you pick between more crit or hibernate - if you need CC you pick one, if you want more damage, you pick the other. Pick your priorities. It’s not about FUN, it’s about what you need.
Flat power increase talents as a place to dump talent points is good for future-proofing the system.
That’s actually kinda good, though. Remember that you’ll be able to switch your talents more or less at any time for free. Your build isn’t set in stone. You’ll need to make your build depending on your team’s needs, rather than being able to do everything all the time all at once. If you don’t need the healing, why would you spec into that? And if you need the healing to help progress a boss, maybe it’s worth it to kill some damage to get to it.
You spec into what you need. Being able to spec into everything, as is the case right now, is incredibly dull.
Yes it is. Having access to more CC or not is an issue of balance.
Output will win over utility almost always.
If everything just does damage without utility, it feels bad.
That’s why fun competing against output is bad thing.
You’re not able to spec into everything. You just have to choose the utility that fits you the best. Some is active, some is more passive, but it’s utility.
What feels dull is having no utility because it’s not worth losing output over. And then having no fun since game has no utility.
Ask yourself why utility spells exist in first place.
Not really, no. Especially not hibernate.
Comparing it to OLD talent trees feels disingenuous and just highlights how you failed at understanding my feedback. Old talent trees didn’t have the issues I described.
I’m sure there are no benefits to having hibernate and cyclone in pvp at the same time. None at all. You’re being disingenuous here.
You can’t do any damage while CC’ed, so utility can completely shut down all output. As a pvper in Shadowlands you must know this. Especially in season 1, when it was all about ccing the healer and blasting them as quickly as possible, then clearing out the rest of the team. In that sense, the cc was part of the output.
There are 2 problems. 1 - people will go to bloodmallet to see what talents sim for the best dps, and get thoroughly destroyed because they picked only damage talents. 2 - nobody can assume everyone has a kick. Everyone who pugs will absolutely have to pick up kick or face infinite kicks from parties, but in pve premades people will be able to easily afford to skip it and spend the talent points elsewhere.
Of course they did. You’d go into an off-spec tree just to grab a specific talent, and dump talent points into things you don’t need. Classic is live, mate, you can go play it.
It’s very hard to judge the system without playing it, but for now it looks pretty fine.
You actually end up with a version that’s alot stronger, but whatever. Having thick hide + the healing spells, multiple legendary combinations and the list goes on. At the cost of what, having to choose between a stun and a disorient and not having hibernate, oh no, end of the world.
When dragonflight goes live, you’ll have most of your points ready, so you have acces to almost everything that you have now. It’s a non issue when it comes to spells that are baseline now.
Of course there are. Against enemy Druid.
But that doesn’t come down to balancing when it’s same class.
AKA if you buff Druid because it lost Hibernate, it doesn’t make its matchup vs Druid better.
I play Classic. It doesn’t have those issues. https://tbc.wowhead.com/talent-calc/druid
In whole Feral Druid tree there is 4 “pre-required” talents. If I want to have Heart of the Wild I have to pick Predatory Swiftness…
Only 4. And those usually thematically make sense (Improved Leader of Pack required by Leader of Pack), Crit giving you combo point requires increased Crit…)
In new Talent trees there’s every talent pre-required by some other talent. I cannot just pick Hibernate with 1 point same as I could’ve in Classic.
BTW HIBERNATE IS BASELINE in Classic.
So literally every issue I describe isn’t applicable to Classic
Except maybe some boring talents (dull X% damage increases).
So you’re objectively wrong.
I disagree, send me your build.
Also strength isn’t my concern. Fun is.
So… there were talents that you dumped points into, either for flat damage increases, or to get to other talents. It is to a lesser extend, but it is there. Not to mention the main limitation in Classic isn’t from the linked abilities like it is here, but having to dump X number of points into a tree to get to a specific talent. The new ones have that as well, but it is much less of a problem.
One of the BIG problems with the old talent trees, which caused them to be deleted in the first place, is that by the end of Cataclysm (or even Wrath) you had no room to grow. Even if you were given more talent points, you didn’t have places to dump them in.
This is why the new talent trees are designed in the way they are - because they are meant to last. Not be removed with Dragonflight. This is why we lose all borrowed power. We’ll just keep tiersets and maybe legendaries.
But due to the design, talent points will have a lot more longevity. Getting 5 talent points into each new tree with 11.0 will have a dramatic effect on builds, while not allowing you to just fill up the tree.
I can speak more to warrior (and from memory from ages ago), but if I remember, Arms warriors didn’t get Rampage or Precision, simply because they couldn’t dump enough points into Fury to get those talents, even if they would be useful. And it wasn’t a problem, it’s what differentiated them. Same thing here.
I agree that fun is important, but this build seems pretty fun to me.
So for me, I now have both thick hide + rejuv and swiftmend, which is an option that wasn’t possible before. That is really great for PvP.
I also now have bigger bites aswell as lunar inspiration, which also wasn’t possible before. I also now have the effects of 3 legendaries, also something that wasn’t possible before. That makes my character alot stronger and looks like alot of fun. The other fun part is that I could go a different route aswell. There are alot of fun combinations to make. Circle might not be the best choice in DF though, I’ll have to see. I like it now in combination with our 4 set.
To much lesser extent. There’s huge difference between having like 50 different combinations of talents you can choose to unlock the one you want and having 1-2.
As I said.
Also you kinda forgot to reflect my argument that utility spells were mostly baseline (Cyclone, Hibernate).
But you lost Draught of deep focus (go-to legendary) for Necro Feral, Fleshcraft, Hibernate, CDR on barkskin, Incapacitating Roar, Tiger’s Fury (higher rank) and a Baseline Berserk effect.
