Dragonflight Rogue Talent Tree - prons and cons

Classes Rogue
41

The point is the point. Read it. CDR is a façade. A lie. It doesn’t do anything for me mentally, if anything it annoys me because of it being a fake reward.

I never questioned your efficacy on the spec, so why are you still on a tirade about the person you blocked?
How did them pulling the “skill” card on you put you in such a state? Yet in this essay you essentially claim to do the same thing.

I have only ever tried to argue for my preferences on how the spec functions (or used to) or my pet peeve with CDR. How they can maybe do something else to make the rotation more satisfying outside of Dance which fixes my issues of it being up too frequent in PvP and it not really feeling like a cooldown anymore.

I wasn’t even saying that the Deepening Shadows should be outright gone. I was saying that I would like to see a (competitive) talent build where you don’t have to take the CDR.

1 Like
42

All right, i can agree to that, i’m fine if there is an option for people who don’t wanna use deepening shadow for some reason.

The problem is that i doubt it could ever be competitive, unless they increase the damage inside shadow dance by like 100 % if you have that talent. Which would be a problem by itself.

They can’t reduce the cd of shadow to 20 seconds if you have deepening shadow, but if you have deepening shadow you can’t make a competitive talent that rivals it with a 9 second window every 1 min, because the burst would be too high…

Unless… That talent increases the duration of dance significantly. But at that point it’s not much different, in fact, the problem would be this, do you increase the energy regen while using that cd extension talent?

Because otherwise if you have a shadow dance that lasts like 20 seconds, you would have problems with sustain, and you really don’t wanna have downtime during dance, because that’s where most of your damage comes from.

The other point was more in general, it wasn’t necessarily directed to the other guy only, although he is included, usually what i noticed on the forum is that the people who really disagree with me, tend to be bad players, and that should tell you something.

But he was the prime example, someone talking about how they played with sub since cata, but only has a few logs, and none of them are outstanding, while at the same time saying that i couldn’t handle sub the way it was during cata/mop, because “i wouldn’t be good enough” Just gtfo with that bs.

But i’m sure that he was doing mechanics and that’s the reason why his logs are bad, because he’s “contributing to the raid” the few times he’s actually doing the raid. And the only reason why i get purple and oranges consistently is because i’m just padding, and anyone can do it. Yea, you keep telling yourself that.

43

Could just be a choice talent of one or the other at the same position in the tree like all the other classes got. Rogue is actually the only class with a “released” talent tree right now that doesn’t have such options.

44

I’m not sure he blocked me since he answered something i said after he supposedly put me on ignore.

Deepening Shadows should be gone, or at least changed to affect Vanish and not ShD. If it stays as it is, any build without it wouldn’t be competitve.

Yeah, it wasn’t that hard, that’s why the vast majority of rogues didn’t play the Sub spec even though the spec had higher sim lol.
Even in the top guilds, it was rare to see a Sub rogue (except for Spine), they were playing combat because it was a lot simpler and the spec dealt just a bit less.

I won’t talk about other specs, but to say the current Sub spec has more depht than before… The spec can be played by a monkey while back in Cataclysm, only a low percentage of rogues were able to play it in raid.

The sub spec was too hard for you, don’t talk about the low end of players. :clown_face:

You played one version of the spec, your opinion is irrelevant, and the only “idea” you have is to keep the spec as is :clown_face:

Except you couldn’t, and providing logs of other easier specs, doesn’t prove anything :clown_face:

Maybe one of the hardest, yes, but Sub was still harder during Cata / MoP, so it still doesn’t prove anything :clown_face:

Yup, you want the spec to stay as it is because you were too bad to play it decently back then, and i really don’t think i’m wrong. :clown_face:

Wow, a 1 minute CD, such a long cooldown… And I get it, it’s hard to use Backstab instead of Shadowstrike / Ambush.
Is the positioning requirement too much for you ? :clown_face:

You know more about other specs and that’s it, you still can’t prove you ever played decently as a Sub rogue (and even less when the spec was interesting because you couldn’t play it) :clown_face:

45

Your evidence is anecdotal at best. Times change and so do people. Even if your argument would hold some water at the time, it doesn’t in this day and age. The game was objectively easier back in the day, including old subtlety. I played it, I was there and it wasn’t that special.

This argument is the same as all those people that argued classic was going to separate the boys from the men blahblah take a month to clear and all that bs. And then it was released and it took people barely a week. You attach too much value to nostalgia.

1 Like
46

It doesn’t change the fact that the spec was made easier and easier since Cataclysm to make the spec playable by anyone.

If you’re talking about encounters, yes, maybe.
And if you really played the sub spec during Cataclysm, you can’t say it wasn’t special, it was the most demanding spec ever made, especially with the two legendary daggers from Dragon Soul.

Except it’s not nostalgia, i’ve been complaining about the simplification of the spec since MoP pre patch when they removed Recuperate from the cycle and made Eviscerate refresh SnD. Or maybe i was already nostalgic of the era from 1 patch earlier ?

Btw, yes, they cleared the first raid in under a week, but don’t you think the fact that they had been clearing this raid again and again for 15 years matters ?

47

Good idea actually.

But they need to be very careful.

You cannot have insane burst, because it’s a problem, what they could do is increase the duration, but also increase the energy regen inside dance for people who do not like the cd reduction.

1 Like
48

of course you can have insane burst. sub has had insane burst many times in the past and many specs have it right now. you just can’t have everything at once, and right now we have basically everything so then everything is meh.

the only time i’m aware of that dark and enveloping were actually balanced was uldir. that was really cool but other times they’ve been too far separated to both be viable choices. would be great to have a choice like that.

2 Likes
49

No you can’t.

To make up for such a loss in cd uptime you would have to get mind blowing burst. We’re talking about 3, 4 even 5 times as much damage as your rotation outside of cds.

And burst that high causes problems both in pvp and pve balancing.

Remember at the start of legion when dh could get chaos blades and another talent which i don’t remember, which basically made your damage profile so spiky you would do absolutely mind blowing burst damage, and then garbage damage outside of your cds.

Why do you think we no longer have chaos blades?

50

ya thats pretty normal to have big burst. rn we have 0 burst, we have negative passive dmg that rarely happens and then we have good sustained dmg with dance up.

happened many times in the past with rogues. but also in SL with other classes, just not sub because sub doesn’t have burst. take m sylvanas p1 intermission boomkings for an extreme example, or wild spirits in general, or whatever.

2 Likes
51

You can have some burst, but it cannot be to those levels, it’s just too much of a balancing nightmare.

Anyway you can get the deepening shadow and 15 % extra damage on sub i think, so you will be able to get some extra burst damage in dragon.

Fire mage is the prime example of what happens when you have that much burst. It’s a balancing nightmare, even if fire might not do the best damage over the duration of a fight, the fact that it has so much burst is still a problem.

52

you gain dark but both symbols and dance are moving from 15 to 10. flag may or may not do something depending on if it does splashing scars dmg or not.

but mostly its tuning. clarity+4p is such an extreme flood of resources that we are constantly blasting, and naturally if you’re constantly blasting then you’re never blasting.

fire is cool, it’s a build around. you actually matter as a fire mage. you get assigned to do things. i don’t even think about when to press cds when everyone’s going on about their 2 minutes and 3 minutes because i don’t have cooldowns.

1 Like
53

I didn’t say that fire isn’t cool, just that it’s an example of what happens when you give way too much burst to a spec.

54

ya, you become a key member that has real impact on the raid group’s success. what rogue used to be, both with dmg profile and utility.

1 Like
55

Are you for real dude? Did you see how many problems it caused? There wasn’t a day where someone wouldn’t point out how mental fire mage was. Yea, ofc they would get a spot, they were doing insane burst damage.

And the point is that it didn’t need to be that way, they could have simply removed the mastery scaling with combustion, increased the duration of comb, and boom, you have slightly less burst, but still have a lot, and your cd window is bigger, so you get to cast more abilities inside it which is cool, and your sustained overall damage is the same.

Aside that, you can also get nightstalker, so you could get 20%+15%+10%+10% from shadow dance itself, and up to 7 combo points and also 10 % crit from planned execution+ a cd extension talent that gives you 0.5 extra seconds on symbols everytime you use backstab or shadowstrike.

I don’t know about you, but a 55% damage boost seems fine to me.

56

i really doubt ns will be 20% and work with dance.

burst is cool i think, as is having a niche. i’ve also been the guy doing turbo blast dmg to stuff. aiming for the most flat damage curve possible is super dull to me, esp when you have no other niche.

2 Likes
57

Who said about aiming for the flattest possible profile.

At the same time, you can’t have damage spikes as high as mount Everest.

Anyway, you are now backpedaling, you probably didn’t notice you could use nightstalker with sub and get an extra 20 %. And yes, you can use it, at least for now. Sub could potentially have good burst.

58

ya but it’s not gonna stay. it exists as 12% rn and is unplayable cause you can’t take focus.

Warcraft Logs - Combat Analysis for Warcraft

look at this right, worlds simplest boss. this dmg profile is so flat is may as well be a table. the only peaks come from trinkets.

1 Like
59

I think to see the most accurate damage profile you have to look at simulationcraft, damage on boss might be interrupted, anything could happen really.

The difference between the high and the low is about 5 k damage, it’s not “bursty” but if you look at outlaw for example, the damage changes even less.

By far the most bursty is assassination.

Between the 3, in my opinion the most fun is generally outlaw, assassination is a bit slow, but thank god they added dispatch, and sub is fine, not great, not bad either.

None of the rogue specs are exceptional in my opinion though, in terms of actual gameplay.

But dragon is looking very good at the moment.

60

nothing happens on skolex other than moving out of melee briefly 2 times

i cant even touch 20k here without trinkets. our feral peaks 75k. fire mage and windwalker over 40k. boomkin like 35k. i have the same dmg profile as our demon hunter on single target and you know there is no aoe or funnel burst to be found either. not that the aoe or funnel is useful in general. and no execute to talk of, of course. wouldn’t want to have any cleave so let’s not do that.

it’s fun to play on anduin and spend like half of p1 funneling and it barely helps. then we go into intermission and i funnel as hard as i can the whole time, it should be perfect, but i do nothing on the boss compared to the people who are blasting aoe out of their ears simultaneously. why? cause they have an actual cooldown to press with the burst phase.

as a sub rogue you are a nobody in a raid environment. you do nothing and have no impact. gameplay wise it’s not bad but jesus christ the dmg profile is the worst thing ever. you play and it looks and feels as if you are doing something, but you are not. you are consistently tickling the boss just hard enough to look average when the boss is dead. at no point in the fight do you do something that is visible.

ok i realise i’m exaggerating here, but this is the gist of my problem with the spec. it really really sucks to be placed in what should be ideal for you, only to be “ok” or “good”. no one ever mentions my damage or my cooldowns in any capacity because it isn’t relevant or important.

2 Likes