Dragonflight Talent Previews - Hunter and Rogue

Community General Discussion
224

Thats a thing that will never happen for ret paladins. Never in a positive way at the very least. If ever Ret is deemed to strong the community will demand nerfs.

This happened with Crusader strike in TBC, Divine storm in WotlK.

In Cata it was “i have to kill a ret 3 times to actually down him and thats bothersome” But the fact that while other classes could kill ret 3 times while a ret struggled to kill their target once was no issue ^^

This is why i hold the community in lower reguard then Blizz.

225

I would love for ret to be more durable and having a tad more tools to aid their team, for sure.

But you can’t clain that one shot ret in shadowland didn’t exist for a long time. Not only that, but they can still do it and it still very mutch represented in cubid and ret/warr comps.

226

One shots existed for many classes throughout the expansion. Ret was not even on the top for most of it. For the most part Ret has always been bursty. But most… no all classes have tools to avoid the burst not to mention that Ret is kind of a lighthouse on a train… on tracks, dont be on the tracks when the light i on? The Rets team members are the ones that put the target on the tracks again.

No new tools will be added for Ret in this talent rewamp, of that im fairly sure. They might tweak how we do dmg but thats about it. We are last because they are happy with the placement ret has atm. Btw earlier rewamps only changed our rotation, nothing new has ever been added from classic til now.

I would be extreamly happy if i were to be wrong about this.

227

i don’t think one shots are a very good game design to begin with.

228

There should be a balance to it thats for sure but i think this is better then immortal healers of BFA.

229

There existed a healthy gameplay where it didn’t take you 9 minutes to kill somebody in an arena or games didn’t end in the first 20 seconds because of overwhelming, unavoidable damage for more or less since wotlk till WoD.

With legion came the cooldown meta, where outside of cooldowns people might as well stop playing and inside of them the receiving end’s best game strategy is not to play / line the whole go.

I think overall cooldowns are far too powerful and that baseline abilities hit too little. There’s also too much variance.

Example: We can use paladin for this example, but any other class would do.

Instead of having Templar’s verdict deal from 8 - 40k damage, how about it instead 14 to 17k damage?

That way, you will always know that ability will hit for roughly 20% ish of your total health and you need to respect it, but at the same time you will not randomly be killed from 60% health. Equally, for the ret, now pressing that ability will feel awesome to press every time you do it, rather than just when you have your cooldowns up.

On some other classes like affli this is even more obvious, when a shadow bolt can deal from under 2k damage upwards to 50k damage.

230

Bit of a poblem to give rets the ability to put pressure outside CDs, would the community truely stand for it? But the problem just dont stand with dmg alone, as we lack tools to stay on target, debuff/CC etc

You might now argue thats why we have teams yet a rogue has tools to CC a 5 man team, go to stealth, debuff, stay on target or flee while having real utility that cant be dispelled by a racial. Why not add the burst of a Ret while at it?

Old mantra of wow was powerfull abilities should have a cost to them. Rogues moved slowly while stealthed and could easaly be unstealthed if they were sloppy. Now they can move in mount speed while stealthed and every single attack they can do from stealth has a long range and even if they were to screw up they still get a window to act before its to late.

As ive said rogues get everything + new ideas while Rets still runs on steam on track.

231

This is true for most classes- You for example don’t seem to mention that bubble used to reduce your damage done by 50%, BoP didn’t allow melee attacks, paladins had 2 trinkets in legion and an automatic bubble, etc.

But same has been and is true for many other specs too. Rogues and mages will however never be bad.

Not saying it should be that way, mind you. It should be changed.

232

But a weakness still exist with all of them. Bubble dispellable by 2 classes, Bop by far more and even by a racial then add the Debuff still existing. Why Aint aspect of the turtle dispellable? Monks green bubble? Priests PS or mist thingy? Sure they have weaknesses of their own BUT when a class’s whole defence is around that one 5 min spell.

This one spell feels more like anchor then anything else, a reason to never add anything new to the class because… sigh “plate, bubble AND heals???”

233

I actually touched on this before, a long time ago. If you exclude covenant abilities and stuff like. And bear in mind that I might not have knowledge on all classes and specs in SL, but I did in BFA.

Back in BFA, I said.

If you look at every spec, one by one, they have one major ability that hits like a truck and everything else doesn’t. They’re just fillers for you to wait or get resources.

Chaos Bolt.
Ferocious Bite.
Aimed Shot.
Unstable Affliction.
etc. The list goes on. I feel that still holds true.

And for one, who earlier told me, that making everything the same is boring. I find it ironic no one has ever touched this subject.

Affliction, Shadow and feral, used to based around their bleeds and dots. But since this burst CD meta, dot classes just can’t live.

Even if you tell me aff is doing amazing right now, I swear. It’s because it can burst and not rot.

I miss these difference in spec, I truely honestly do.

234

I actually agree on that.

In before people think I’m suddenly in love with it. I still think rogue will be far stronger. :stuck_out_tongue:

I came to think of this.

Isn’t warlock/Warrior like absolut last in line?

235

Have they said anything about the order they will release the trees? If so ive totaly missed that.

236

No? I were just thinking alphabetically.

237

…Priest is out and ofc our golden boi le Rogue ^^

Paladin has usualy been one of the last ones before, kinda the reason i think its the same now. Blizz has a habit of repeating itself, i hope they dont but i wont hold my breath.

238

Great review, you brought up a lot of valid points.

I just wanted to say that I kinda like Secret Technique and I think fits into the subtlety talent tree as an optional uncapped AOE finisher that you take if u really need more AOE dmg.

The only thing I’m currently worried about is that it deals physical damage and so doesn’t interact with Veil Touched and Deeper Daggers. I think it should also be affected by Shadowed Finishers and Finality if it has its duration increased. Otherwise, it doesn’t feel as rewarding if u take those, and won’t be worth spending 1 talent point.

239

Hi,
I have a concern regarding the Secret Technique. I think it fits well into the subtlety talent tree as an optional uncapped AOE finisher that you take if u need more AOE dmg.

The only thing I’m currently worried about is that it deals physical damage and so doesn’t interact with Veil Touched and Deeper Daggers. I think it should also be affected by Shadowed Finishers and Finality( if it has its duration increased). Otherwise, it feels out of place and will be unfun to play. Think about it.

Best regards

240

For Beast Mastery

Also including a few points about the class tree at the bottom. Some of it ties into the part about Beast Mastery as well.

Positive

  • Beast Cleave - At 3 ranks, it will now be back to 75% of normal damage, but in turn, we will now also have access to Kill Cleave, which makes Kill Command deal 50% damage to nearby enemies as well. And it seems as if Kill Cleave doesn’t come with a soft cap of 5 or 8 targets, like Beast Cleave does. Although, the fact that Beast Cleave requires 3 points is a bit of a downer…
  • Talents for AoE, optional - It’s good to see that you can easily side-step the bulk of any talents(Multi-Shot, Beast Cleave, Kill Cleave) that are meant for AoE, if you’re in a scenario where it’s not required.
  • New talent ‘Call of the Wild’ - Seems interesting. Would like to know a bit more about the specifics, but looks like the old Stampede is making a return.
  • New talent ‘Bloody Frenzy’ - In the bottom right choice node. Seems interesting as well, could make for some fun setup for burst windows. Either way, the combination of Call of the Wild and Bloody Frenzy has the potential to be very fun to play with.
    • The ideal thing would be if the pets summoned by Call of the Wild, with Bloody Frenzy picked, if they were all affected by Frenzy’s bonus attack speed, even if Frenzy was already active when you use Call of the Wild.

Hmm…

  • Cobra Shot + Cobra Senses - The talent tooltip reads that Cobra Shot reduces the remaining cooldown of Kill Command by 1 sec. You then also have another talent called ‘Cobra Senses’, where the tooltip reads that, if you pick it, Cobra Shot reduces the remaining cooldown of Kill Command by 1 sec. Would each Cobra Shot, if ‘Cobra Senses’ is picked, reduce the remaining cooldown of Kill Command by 2 sec? Or would Cobra Senses be required for Cobra Shot to have that 1 sec CDR on Kill Command?
  • New talent ‘Barbed Wrath’ - Which combines the effect of how Barbed Shot reduces the remaining CD of Bestial Wrath, and now will also reduce the remaining CD of Aspect of the Wild. The part about you also being able to reduce the cooldown of Aspect of the Wild is decent, but not the part where we now have to talent into CDR for Bestial Wrath.
  • Wailing Arrow - As a new talent, seems a bit out of place – when put in the spec tree. If you ask me, it would be better suited as a choice in the class tree.
  • New talent ‘Dire Pack’ - Seems a bit odd. Granted that we don’t know how much damage Multi-Shot will deal. Also, why would it affect Steady Shot, but not Cobra Shot? For Beast Mastery, Cobra Shot replaces Steady Shot if picked. Also, why is it a square node when it’s not a new ability?
  • New talent ‘Wild Instincts’ - Might have the risk of becoming very chaotic at times, to the point where it may result in wasted procs of Barbed Shot charges. Especially when combined with the regular Wild Call.

Negative

  • Beast Cleave - There doesn’t seem to be any talent that increases the base duration of Beast Cleave, and Beast Cleave still has the regular 4 sec base duration.
  • Animal Companion, still a talent - For many players, picking this talent has more to do with personal preferences in terms of aesthetics and identity, not about a choice of throughput. Keeping it as a talent can easily have a negative impact on players, no matter whether they like using it or not.
  • Dire Beast - Is still the same as in Shadowlands, a plain “use-on-CD” ability. I still think it’s a missed opportunity to not rework it back to how it was in Legion, so that we can choose between a playstyle with Barbed Shot + Frenzy, or aspects involving Dire Beast. I for one very much enjoyed the “beast cannon” builds in Legion, even though some didn’t.
  • Aspect of the Wild - A bit sad to see that Aspect of the Wild is still present, albeit as a choice this time. If anything, it needs something more. It’s not a very interesting, nor fun, ability to manage.
  • Core functions now split apart - The fact that they’ve taken some abilities and picked them apart, only to then reintroduce what they took out as a stand-alone talent.
    • Ex: Barbed Wrath, this being its own thing, rather than keeping it as part of Bestial Wrath’s default setup, it really shouldn’t be done this way.
    • Same thing with Loaded Quiver. It didn’t feel very good to play when Barbed Shot only had 1 charge.

Final thoughts

Here are some thoughts on what could be done to improve the general composition of Beast Mastery as a specialization/talent tree.

Animal Companion - Not about throughput
Really, I can’t stress this enough, make Animal Companion a baseline passive choice that we can make. One that simply splits normal pet damage between 2 permanent pets, if we so choose. Or if we go with 1 main pet, that pet will then deal 100% of normal damage.

Beast Cleave - Increase duration
For the sake of gameplay, ideally, something like changing Beast Cleave to a 2 point talent(still @75% total damage), and then adding a small tangent branch node(1 point) directly below it that does this:

[Improved Beast Cleave] - Increases the damage of Beast Cleave by 10%, and Beast Cleave now lasts for an additional 6 seconds.

Call of the Wild - Embracing the “Beast Cannon”
Would love a talent or bonus trait of some kind that allows you to extend the duration of Call of the Wild, by using another ability.

Loaded Quiver - Shouldn’t exist as a talent
Barbed Shot should go back to having 2 charges by default. We all learned this lesson during Legion.

Dire Beast - Back to Legion design
It should preferably be reworked to how it was in Legion, so that we could choose between that and Barbed Shot. And with that, talents that have an interaction with Barbed Shot should be iterated on to also include elements tied to Dire Beast.

Wailing Arrow - To the class tree
Somewhere around Counter Shot. Make it an extended “branch” pick from Counter Shot. See the class section below for details.

Dire Pack’s tooltip - Needs clarification
Along with the icon, showing it as a new ability. It needs to be clarified what the intent with it is, as a talent.

Barbed Wrath - Should be reworked
The cooldown reduction for Bestial Wrath should be a default element of Bestial Wrath itself, like it is on live. Ideally, the reworked version should read something like:

[Primal Instincts] - Barbed Shot now also reduces the remaining cooldown of Aspect of the Wild by 4/8 sec, and Aspect of the Wild increases your Mastery by -/- for the duration.

In for the Kill - In the wrong position
Move the talent ‘In for the Kill’ down one step, to where Wailing Arrow was previously positioned.

  • In the place of ‘In for the Kill’, put a talent there that allows for A Murder of Crows to be affected by Beast Cleave, if picked. This will then give us a choice between that talent, and the talent ‘Bloodshed’. Allowing for a pick between AoE/Cleave, and priority target damage. Example:

    [Talon Frenzy] - While Beast Cleave is active, A Murder of Crows affects up to 8 enemies near the primary target.

Hunter class tree, a few things

Aspect of the Fox has long been an ability that the hunter community wants for to be brought back. While it was indeed at times a very powerful piece of utility, I would argue that with a few changes to it, this would allow the entire class to have raid/group-wide utility that, at times would still be very strong, but albeit situational.

I would love to see something like the example below put back, as an option in the class tree. As per the tooltip, it would have a substantially longer shared cooldown, however long is required to not heavily promote class stacking or other things similar to that.

Aspect of the Fox - Instant - 3 min cooldown/30 sec global(shared) cooldown
Party and raid members within 40 yards take on the aspects of a fox, allowing them to move while casting all spells and abilities for 6 sec.

For positioning in the class tree, there are a few things I would do at the same time.

  • Aspect of the Fox has been added in the place where we can currently find Counter Shot, to allow for the class to bring some additional utility, other than Primal Rage(which isn’t exactly a massive perk in group-based content). A lot of other classes/specs are getting additional raid/group utility, and atm, I think hunters are the only ones left out in this department.
  • Tar Trap has been taken out of the tree, the intent is that it should be given to us as a baseline ability, when we level up. Same as it works currently with Freezing Trap.
  • Improved Exhilaration has been moved out to take the place of the placeholder node they mentioned in the post, the one they wanted to be about utility(where Scare Beast was previously placed).
  • Misdirection + Fogged Crystal have both been moved one row to the left, to where Tar Trap and Improved Exhilaration was previously placed. And, a path has been added from Fogged Crystal, to connect to the new position of Improved Exhilaration.
  • Counter Shot has been moved down one row, to where Misdirection was previously placed. To make room for Aspect of the Fox.
  • Wailing Arrow has been added below the new position of Counter Shot. Again, I would prefer it to be about the utility(silence effect), not damage.
  • The new position of Scare Beast, is as a tangent node that extends out from the choice node for Scatter Shot/Binding Shot. I think that would be much more useful for any scenario where you would find value in picking Scare Beast.
  • Keen Eyesight + Master Marksman. And lastly, You can see the path added as a connection from Keen Eyesight, downwards to Master Marksman.

2 Likes
241

Numbers :partying_face:

Spec Cost Nodes Average Node Cost
outlaw 51 45 1.133333333
subtlety 50 44 1.136363636
guardian 45 38 1.184210526
resto 43 35 1.228571429
holy 46 36 1.277777778
frost 45 35 1.285714286
discipline 53 41 1.292682927
shadow 55 42 1.30952381
assassination 51 38 1.342105263
unholy 46 34 1.352941176
blood 49 36 1.361111111
balance 47 34 1.382352941
feral 46 33 1.393939394
marksmanship 54 36 1.5
beast mastery 53 34 1.558823529
survival 58 32 1.8125

" Allo Houston we …"

2 Likes
242

Well this was a very intresting way to put it into perspective. Rogues sure do get far more options to choose from with a far lower cost to get them while all 3 hunter speccs dont get options nor are they cheap.

2 Likes
243

Nope it’s the current stampede.

Even then. I’d say Kill command current CD is very short, plus affected by haste. But I will say it depends on number tuning on kill command, because right now on live, it’s very lack lusting in damage.