Dragonflight - The M+ or DIE expansion?

[Zhujiang-mograine]

@Zhujiang-mograine

Can´t wait for you to quote my old comment here and try to make a bad faith interpretation to prove your point. Another pro move incoming!!

Damn, I called it.

Izi win. Nice try dude with the bad faith interpretation move. Better luck next time!!

[Veggiette-venoxis]

But then you need double amount of time to play this hobby. Why would I want to invest more?

It’s ez said but in reality casuals will quit and I don’t think this is healthy for the game.

[Dhobban-ragnaros]

@Zhujiang-mograine

Nice try dude with the bad faith interpretation.

It’s your direct quotes that you can’t bring friends to keys. Imagine having more than 4 friends.

[Dhobban-ragnaros]

@Veggiette-venoxis

But then you need double amount of time to play this hobby. Why would I want to invest more?

Not really, you don’t have to push keys every single day. You can tell your friends that “Hey I’m gonna run some low keys today with some other friends”.

Same as you don’t have to play low keys every day.

Talk to your friends, you don’t have to group up every single day to be friends.

[Zhujiang-mograine]

@Dhobban-ragnaros

It’s your direct quotes that you can’t bring friends to keys. Imagine having more than 4 friends.

No. My quote is the game does not incentivize this.

Imagine having reading comprehension.

Anyways I won this one take the L. I am done.

Let´s keep to the topic.

[Dhobban-ragnaros]

@Zhujiang-mograine

My quote is the game does not incentivize this.

Except it does from this week. You can loot sparks from any level of content.

[Veggiette-venoxis]

I got your point but I already experienced lower participation in my guild from lower brackets player. So I also will take a break as it’s not fun to play without the folks I’m used to.

Shadowlands was a garbage expansion but damn they got m+ right for the majority

[Dhobban-ragnaros]

I suppose that’s the difference of guilds. Our guild has always had a good casual side to it where they’re active and we play with them all the time in all forms of content.

[Zhujiang-mograine]

@Dhobban-ragnaros

Except it does from this week. You can loot sparks from any level of content

I have another one!!

M+ drops loot. Even if you can´t use this loot. You can vendor it!! That´s like 40g vendor gold per run!! Wow, what an incentive!!

[Veggiette-venoxis]

Yeah but as I told you not invested to play more hours as I used to. Need extra time to help my friends.

In SL it was easy as I could run +15 together in a quick weekly key

[Dhobban-ragnaros]

@Zhujiang-mograine

I have another one!!

M+ drops loot. Even if you can´t use this loot. You can vendor it!! That´s like 40g vendor gold per run!! Wow, what an incentive!!

Feel free to use whatever arguments you think you have. I’m 6/8M, 2700+ score and I can still use sparks for items and offspec. So yeah, if some of my lower scored friends what to run some keys guess what, I can still get upgrades from that.

[Rallos-ravencrest]

@Zhujiang-mograine

So am I crazy or is Dragonflight just the M+ expansion?

no its the Raid or Die Expansion.

if u dont raid, ur basically shafted for the relevant half of every Season. full stop. trying to push M+ as a group of players without tier sets is basically stumped comparitively to raiders who dip into M+ for KSM.

@Zhujiang-mograine

Also interesting. People kept crying about being ´´forced´´ to do World Quests. Being ´´forced´´ to do Islands. By applying the same logic, Blizzard is ´´forcing´´ us to do 8 +20s every week to stay competitive in our guilds groups. Amirite?

not really.

you can Mythic raid for higher rewards and get vault to stack… theres 3 paths through the Vault. and u can only choose 1, so no ur not forced at all.

@Zhujiang-mograine

Want to help your guild progress on normal / heroic raiding difficulties? Well there is only a single choice to gain power outside of raids. Stressful speed running content in the form of m+.

or just considering the fact. u get gear from raiding lol.

[Cloudious-draenor]

Overall, I am enjoying the PvP side of the game immensely. Sure i miss the huge open world pvp raids. But instanced pvp is actually in a fun spot. Very alt friendly too.

As for M+, it’s alright but can be better. I’m still enjoying it with my guild. I feel like the timer takes away the whole point to do it with pugs.
The game is less about making bonds “while” doing content and filling out guild application forms beforehand and finding a place that suits you, which is…sad.

I am enjoying DF but i do sense the lack of content - However if the patches are frequent and keep giving content it won’t be too bad, depends on what the future content is.

[Grendiser-kazzak (Grendiser)]

@Zhujiang-mograine

Want to help your guild progress on normal / heroic raiding difficulties?

@Zhujiang-mograine

Blizzard is ´´forcing´´ us to do 8 +20s every week to stay competitive in our guilds groups. Amirite?

I really curious about what guild is “progressing” on “normal/heroic raiding difficulties” and their members feel they must do “8 +20s every week to stay competitive”.

If you want to make constructive criticism about the game then use realistic examples. Your example of “I am forced to farm 418 gear to progress on content that is tuned for 372-376 geared players and drops 389 gear” does not make sense.

Even mythic raid difficulty doesn’t “require” 418 gear.

[Ishayo-tarren-mill]

@Dhobban-ragnaros

You can even look at classic as proof, once BGs came out the only “PvP” you could find was wiping peoples world buffs outside of raid.

Which then begs the question…

was BG’s a good move?

I’m not sure that it was.

But obviously that ship has sailed a long time ago.

[Jagarde-outland (Jagarde)]

@Zhujiang-mograine

Really crazy how WoW went from an incredible open world social game to what is essentially a toxic speed-run lobby game that re-uses 6-8 year old dungeons.

Yup!

WoW has become what is… Lost Ark. A Hub “MMO” game where you afk in town, que for dungeons … in town, or search for a group …in town. Here and there, you …go girl and do some WQ’s and that’s basically it.

…and

@Zhujiang-mograine

So am I crazy or is Dragonflight just the M+ expansion?

No! Is not you. Is just M+ because there is literally nothing else to do in this expansion.

[Malikychi-twisting-nether]

@Zhujiang-mograine

I was giving the perspective of someone who is new to the game. M+ is stressful content, it isn´t debateable sorry, even if you enjoy it or not. It´s like saying you don´t find SC2 stressful.

It’s very debatable…

@Zhujiang-mograine

My point was that raid design is good because it incentivizes good social interactions. Whereas the current M+ system actually provides a disincentive to socialize with others.

Disagree… It promotes getting to know people and use voice chats …
Before i got into M+ i was playing wow like a single player game, now, i’m basically in voice chat from the moment i log on till i log off chatting with people. My friend list is full of people i’ve met in M+.

@Zhujiang-mograine

Having a game that exclusively incentivizes people to play with others who have the same skill level is bad for social interaction in the game. Especially when the skill difference is massive due to Blizzard design choices that increase difficulty.

But it doesn’t, if you play the game like that, then that’s on you, not the game.

@Zhujiang-mograine

The current game gives no incentive to run with bad players in a guild for a +15 at all. There is no incentive at all, provided by the game.

Bottled essence for 418 gear? Fun? is that still i thing you consider when you play the game, just doing content with your friends/guild for fun ?

[Elias-drakthul]

@Dhobban-ragnaros

You can find people that you like that are on the same skill level as you, try talking to people. It’s an MMO

See this is that problem. WoW isnt mmo. Its. Glorified lobby game with optional multiplayer. Nothing absolutly nothing outside of organized raiding promotes healthy social interactions. 99% of entire game can be beated as solo player. LFR, LFG, Crossrealm and sharding killed last biz of social space there was left so in order to make friends to play with you actualy have to force yourself spent tons of time to actualy find people to play with.

      WHICH IS WRONG.

Social interactions is something what is supostu happen naturaly as game should provide enviroment where such dinamyc can occur. WoW no longer have such enviromemt outside of organized raiding.

[Amazoner-kul-tiras]

One of the things, that killed WoW social aspect, for me was the fact, the majority of players prioritize gear progression over social guilds.

Vanilla:
Essentials guild: players asked, help all the time in guild chat for the stuff they needed to get done. Unfortunately they were not as active when someone needed it.
We always had the same people going to help others.
Because the guild was only running dungeons, people kept leaving and eventually to the guild died out.

Final Words: this guild unlike the first one was trying to push in to Raiding. I got my first epic mail chest on this character in Zul’Gurub. Unfortunately the guild failed multiple attempts to kill the last boss, failed at the first boss in AQ 20 players version. People had many arguments and the guild disbanded.

TBC:
Forsaken Sunrise: very good guild.
Had a main Raiding group that was trying to beat Magtheridon’s Lair.
The second group in which I was included was running Karazhan. We cleared everything except for the undead dragon.
This is where I had to quit as the Raiding nights on my Forsaken Holy Priest were making me exhausted and that was being noticed at work.
Unfortunately for this guild, they weren’t progressing fast enough, so again people kept leaving for more successful guilds.

From what I keep reading in this topics, people only have fun if their character is progressing, with multiple ways of gearing up, interacting with other players comes in second. So nothing has changed, after all this years.

Raid used to be the only way to progress your character. Which made sense. It was the end game.

Mithic dungeons came during Legion.
While they are an alternative to Raid, they are not a replacement for Raids.

The gear progression used to be through, clearing multiple Raids.
They only had 1 mode of difficulty.
Not 4 and there was a reason why they were not on Mithic level for example. It was so people could beat them, get geared and move on to the next raid.

Now people can bypass that with each patch offering better gear.
I ignored the entire Queen Azshara patch and still I was able to get in to the last LFR Raid. When the N’Zoth patch came. On several characters. That would be unthinkable in Vanilla.

Being stuck in progression is nothing new.
I experienced that since day one.
The problems are: people got too used to avoid content and that started to be noticed by the developers.

As stated before in this forum people take the path of least resistance.

Cheers.

[Astralblight-azjolnerub]

Well if your guild is trying to get into the hardest endgame content then yeah, you probably will do a lot if that’s what you want to experience. I’m going fine atm by just clearing normal VOTI and doing maybe a few mythic + dungeons each week.