I’m not going to completely disagree with you, but there’s a lot in your original post that is quite questionable. I have a very hard time believing they did all of this because the original lore writers wanted somewhere their Girlfriends wanted to join in.
How would you have done it in their place if you disagree with it so much? Far as I see it, even if you or I disagree with what they have done, those early quests still serve as exposition as to why the Blood Elves joined the Horde in the first place and why they did not rejoin the Alliance.
At this point, it’s literally comparable to picking up any fantasy world, looking at its origins and then deeming it as bad material because you personally disagree with it. This is something Sylvare tried to point out, I think.
EDIT: And no, saying your solution is “They shouldn’t be in the Horde in the first place so I don’t have to write anything!” does not count.
I didn’t say the original lore writers wanted their girlfriends to enjoy a Horde race. That was your assumption .
What I meant was that there has been word going around of a interview that Was done with Asian players who complained they wanted a pretty race for their girlfriends to play Horde with them.
Even then, that wasn’t the only issue. Another one was that the factions was unbalanced and a easy way to fix this was to add Blood elves to the Horde.
Again, this is all done for gameplay purposes to ensure the game continues with a balanced faction population. Which is not a bad argument, in that case I’m ok with the Blood elves going Horde.
I just argued some of the lore doesn’t make make sense or was changed, which is fine because they did all this for gameplay reasons. So again I’m fine with it
In the end at least we have Void elves. So who cares haha
Fair enough if you want to be that incredibly specific.
As for that interview, I am quite painfully aware of that too. But even if it was faction imbalance, their provided exposition isn’t… really that bad? Since then, they’ve only had more reason to be in the Horde, no matter if it is controversial or not. In fact, having controversy behind a race is actually more promoting than demeaning, simply because it provides substance where a straight-forward-run-of-the-mill race joining the ‘perfect’ faction can’t really provide.
And yes, you have Void Elves now. With High Elf customization. Win-win is all I can see here.
I once read, can’t remember where, that basically the Alliance pushes people into the Horde. It’s gotten even more true with BFA really (Nightborne, Vulpera, Zandalari…)
Just want to add that in WoW Classic there definitely were Blood Elves in Kalimdor. Those in Azshara, for example. And one chilling in Sunrock Retreat, tasking players with killing some Keepers of the Grove. So, yeah. Just because Kael had a walk with Tyrande doesn’t mean Blood Elves and Night Elves are best friends.
Well according to Vanilla lore Blood elves (not the High elves) felt betrayed by the alliance, mostly the Humans and Night elves. Although for some reason it was never mentioned why they hated the night elves, especially since Tyrande helped them escape and it was Kael who warned Malfurion that Maeve was lying and Tyrande is actually alive.
So wether they had beef afterwards, that was never mentioned and leaves big confusion as to why Vanilla Blood elves hated the Nelves.
It was also mentioned they were neutral with the Horde, however still viewed them as barbaric
Yeah, but thats not what happened with either the Zandalari or the Nightborne.
Yes, Tyrande was abit… mean to them, but whats easily ignored is that Tyrande was there 10.000 years ago when Suramar basicly betrayed the Kaldorei Resistence and the Sisterhood of Elune and only saved themselves, so ofcourse she wanted proof that they would not turn tail again when the going would get rough.
Even after all that, Tyrande was still there with her Sentinel Army, sacrifing night elven lives alongside blood elven, high elven and nightborne elven troops to free Suramar.
Then the blood elves decided to lie and Thalyssra immediatly jumped on the “lets genocide the night elves train”.
As for the Zandalari, they are trolls and except for the one time they worked together, the Alliance races and literally every troll tribe has always been hostile against eachother.
The night elves fought and soundly defeated the Amani, Drakkari, Gurubashi and Zandalari empires, allowing the Zandalari their holy mountains by Azshara’s grace, something the trolls have never forgiven the elves.
The gnomes have fought trolls since they left Uldaman, beating them to a stalemate in Khaz Modan’s many caverns until the dwarves awakened and subsequently joined the gnomes’ war against the dwarves, defeating the trolls and taking their territory.
The humans literally fought the trolls for their right to exist, to eke out an existence on a strange continent where they had no allies, no nations and no resources. It wasnt until they were united into the Empire of Arathor and aligned with the elves that they were able to break the back of the Amani empire, ensuring that the forest trolls and the humans (but not the Thalassian elves) would be enemies eternal.
Thats all ignoring all the conflicts between the Alliance and various troll tribes and nations during WoW’s lifetime.
So its really in character (and logical) that the Alliance would capture Princess Talanji of the most powerful troll empire on Azeroth and spiritual leader of all trolls when she was on her way to make friends with the troll warchief of the Horde.
A pact between the Horde and every troll tribe, however unlikely needs to be avoided by the Alliance by any means necesary, the Alliance already is the weaker faction.
This post became longer and rantier then I wanted, sorry for that
The city probably meant more to Tyrande than the people. She was there for the most part for the nostalgia trip since it was her place of birth. Hence how cold and dismissive she was to them in general during the rebellion.
After Zin-Azshari, Suramar is probably the most prominent city of the ancient Kaldorei empire too, so it means a lot to the Night Elves today from a historical standpoint.
The current inhabitants… not so much because as you said they felt betrayed by them during the War of the Ancients for protecting their own rather than providing assistance.
Pretty much this. Her prejudice, rightly or wrongly, was a factor that pushed the Nightborne to find more commonality and kinship with the Blood Elves than the Night Elves.
What lie?
Also, if you remember from Legion, before they picked a faction to side with, they were already pretty much ok with murdering the Moon Guard under Elisande anyway.
I always found this strange coming from the campaign of WC3 into WoW and noticing the sudden manifestation of bad blood between the two.
However, although this was most likely done for gameplay reasons in keeping up the appearance of the faction divide, I do think it’s justifiable given what we know now.
The Night Elves being the ones who forcibly exiled them and the fact the Blood Elves (High Elves) are descended form the original Highborne caste. So there would be distain and a level of contempt from both ends.
The lore was expanded upon in WoW and it makes sense that the distrust could have been built up over time again as soon as they started interacting with each other on a much more regular basis.
Beforehand, there was little to no contact save the few exchanges like the one you’ve mentioned above between Kael, Tyrande, Malfurion, Maiev etc… and their entourages present.
So I see it as more of a honeymoon period where both sides are still more surprised to see the other (alive) than anything else at that point in time. It’s only later on do the spies start popping up in Eversong Woods because they slowly remember why they stopped talking to each other a few millennia or so ago.
When Suramar was freed, the Nightborne felt they had to “go somewhere” now that they finally returned to the world. Thalyssra herself stated that was it not for Tyrande’s unnecessary defiance over something that happened 10 000 ago, they would have obviously joined their night elven kin. Eventually they joined the Horde, who they admittedly first though they shared “no common ground” with.
However justified Tyrande’s defiance might have been (I’d argue it was frankly unjustified and misplaced tbh), it’s undeniable she sent the Nightborne straight to the Horde.
The Zandalari are a bit different. Yes the Alliance has always had beef with the Trolls (mostly because they stole their lands btw), but don’t forget that we’re talking about the Zandalari Empire here : they were on hostile-ish terms with the Horde too. Vol’jin rejected Zul’s offer and the Horde participated in raiding Zul’Aman. We also fought them when they tried to invade Pandaria.
We are not sure why the Alliance captured Talanji and Zul, but chances are it was because they hadcaught wind that Talanji wanted the Horde to help her deal with the Blood Trolls. And so what ?.. It seemingly wasn’t even about JOINING the Horde at first - we saw that many Zandalari were reluctant to do so. After all, in addition to the events I described, we have Elves, Pandaren and Undead… doesn’t sound like a natural choice for the Zandalari. For all we know, the ties between both forces could have been limited to the right to enter Dazar’alor for trade purposes. But no, the Alliance thought it was a good idea to capture the Princess and lock her up in a crappy cell under Stormwind, for no solid reason. So of course the Horde frees her, in order to gain their favor. Later on, the Alliance sneeks into the capital and murders the Zandalari’s holy king. One could say that, at this point, if the Zandalari still had doubts about fully committing to the Horde in the faction war, the Alliance made sure these doubts were gone.
I disagree, I think she acted that way because she wanted the to prove to her and her people that they could be trusted. Did it backfire? Yes. Did it prove Tyrande right? Yes.
Lady Liadrin says: The sin’dorei are also scorned by Tyrande and her prideful lot. Yet for many ages her people slept in dens or hid in trees while my people fought to save this world.
Outright lies, as Liadrin knows. Where were the Thalassian elves in the War of the Satyr? War of the Shifting Sands? Third War when the Legion climbed Mount Hyjal?
How is bieng cautios and slightly sceptical of a people that betrayed and left you to die before unjustified and misplaced?
Tyrande Whisperwind says: Arcanist Thalyssra. I remember where your order stood in the War of the Ancients. How do we know you won’t betray us and become the next Elisande… the next Azshara?
First Arcanist Thalyssra says: We do not intend to be slaves to the Nightwell]. We seek to drive the Legion from Suramar and put an end to Elisande’s oppression.
Tyrande Whisperwind says: The kaldorei will fight to see the Legion defeated and the Nightwell destroyed. Beyond that… we shall see where Elune’s wisdom guides us.
Tyrande didn’t slam the door shut, she didn’t tell her outright no. She was bieng cautios and open about what she feared about the nightborne. Then Thalyssra turned around and immediatly proved Tyrande right on bieng cautios.
First Arcanist Thalyssra says: The Alliance feels too walled off… too cloistered. My people will never endure such stagnation again.
And then she went and loljoined the faction that commited genocide on her “fellow night elven kin”. GJ Thalyssra, Azshara would be proud.
If you think it is a smart idea to let the leaders of two empires, opposed to you, meet for mutual assistance then… I don’t know what to tell you.
The slightest risk of the Horde and Zandalari Empire having more common ground between them that could lead to an alliance was a big risk. Hence why it was better when the Zandalari joined later, they were weakened from a civil war and the Alliance destroyed their harbour and navy and sacked their city. At that point the weakened Zandalari joining the Horde wasn’t a risk anymore.
Man, I know Elves have a different perception of the passing of time due to their former immortality, but 10 000 years… that’s a lot. What did the Nightborne even do at the end of the day ? Well, 10 000 years ago, when the world literally freaking exploded, they sealed off their city in order to prevent further destruction, thinking the rest of the world was pretty much gone. Is that the insufferable betrayal Tyrande is referring to? If it is, then the Nightborne did the right choice joining the Horde, really. Farodin said about the Nightborne : “Losing everything has humbled them. It has made them stronger.” He understood something that Tyrande didn’t.
What ? Didn’t the Nightborne join the Horde BEFORE the burning of Teldrassil ? And anyway, they didn’t participate in the battle of Teldrassil, nor did they participate in the battle for Darkshore. They were sent to Zandalar.
Excuse me, how ? Thalyssra literally proved Tyrande wrong. She didn’t do anything wrong. Except maybe using the withered as a fighting force, that was questionable, though understandable.
Please. Anduin admitted that more than destroying the Zandalari’s navy, the goal of the attack on Zul’dazar was to dissuade them from joining the Horde. That’s official. They wanted to do that, and it had the strictly opposite effect. They pushed the despaired Zandalari into the Horde out of poor tactical thinking, and they pushed the Nightborne into the Horde through Tyrande’s resent and childish behavior. But then again, that’s the story of the Alliance really, strengthening the ennemy because they can’t help being kinda douchey.
Well we don’t know for sure what kind of relationship Talanji initially intended to build with the Horde, nor do we know for sure why the Alliance captured her, so we can only speculate.
Concerning the goal of the Alliance’s attack on Zul’dazar, there is that dialogue (following the Jaina encounter) that supports what I said :
[quote]“My king, the attack on Zuldazar was a resounding success.”
“The Horde is losing on all fronts. The Alliance should achieve victory in a matter of weeks.”
“Yes, but at what cost? So many fallen…including Mekkatorque, whose life hangs by a thread. And I fear the death of Rastakhan will ignite a fire in the hearts of the Zandalari.”
“He was a casualty of war, Anduin. A king must be willing to sacrifice himself for his people without doubt or hesitation.”
“I know that, Genn…as well as anyone. But our mission was to drive a wedge between the Zandalari and the Horde. Instead, we may have strengthened their bond.”[/quote]
I mean, the night elves were extremely isolationist, just like the high elves, so I think the only lie in this is that her kind fought to save the world. And even then the second line about them fighting to save the world is only kinda a half lie, as they did take part in the second and third war, although forced to by having the war come to them.
Since the night elves literally made a mist to cover the continent of kalimdor to shroud it from sailors so they could be left alone, after they exiled the highborne. And the mist only got dispelled by the time of wc3 and the reason why kalimdor was considered such a mythical continent by the people of the eastern kingdoms. And those wars you mentioned were contained to the shrouded continent.
Cautious is fine, but being outright rude to the rebel leader fighting the legion lapdogs are not a great way to make allies, especially when you represent your people. No matter your past trauma. Tyrande says that the more nightborne you can get to your cause the less Night elves have to die.
On the other hand we have Liadrin being sympathetic, friendly and talking well of the Horde.
Not to mention that apparently the night elves just left Suramar after the legions defeat but the blood elves decided to stay and help them rebuild. And that’s before they even joined the Horde.
Honestly, the nightborne makes full sense in joining the Horde by the actions of Tyrande and Liadrin. And pretty much any real world country would do so as well. I’m honestly more appalled that a 10k-year-old leader of the Night elves acts so poorly in diplomacy.
The war of thorns haven’t happened at the point of them joining, and they did not take part in it either. There’s not a single mention or npc of nightborne in any of the media dealing with the war of thorns.
But I agree she should have been vocal about how horrible it was.
There was no ‘Risk Assessment Allowance’ act from the Alliance concerning the Zandalari and the Horde. Which is incredibly strange when you see it written right there that it was a clear mishandling on the Alliance’s part. This ‘wedge’ plan had its merits, based on the assumption of a breaking and dissuading an empire as an asset versus an opponent.
It didn’t pan out well.
Why is it so hard to admit being wrong? In a narrative setting of all things…
Agreed for us it is a lot. But for someone who was there? Who lived it? IRL we still have fights over things that happened generations ago, how much worse would it’ve been if the people who lived it were still around?
The nightborne didn’t seal of their city because of the world exploding, they sealed of their city because the Azsharan Highborne and the Legion forces in the city wanted to open a second Legion portal in Suramar, thus opening a second front. Instead of doing what the rest of their kin did and fight the Legion and attempt to save the world they went “Rofl, shield up” using a powerful Titan Pillar of Creation and the sacrifice of a Wild God to both destroy the Legion forces in the city and bubble themselves up nice and cozy, afterwards they assumed that the world was destroyed.
If only if was something like what the Zandalari did to shield their nation from the Sundering and then return to see how the world was doing and if they could rebuild.
T… that doesn’t make it better.
“We joined this faction to help protect the world and show we have changed”
“Oh, they commited genocide and conquered an entire nation because war was inevitble”
“Anyway, heeere’s Zandalar, rofl, Horde are such good guys helping the Zandalari”.
That said, I stand corrected on when they joined.
Because Tyrande outright stated she feared that Thalyssra might become the next Elisande, or Azshara. Who were known for their warmongering, genocidal tendencies.
Then Thalyssra joined the Horde, the main bulk of the Horde commited genocide against the night elves on a unprecedented scale, conquered all night elven lands and then burned a good chunk of their civilian population to death.
And Thalyssra did nothing, no word of caution for the Horde, no word of regret, no “my people used to do this stuff too, look at us now”, no nothing. She swore the nightborne would join the world as protectors, not becoming like the highborne of old. Well, she was partially right, the Highborne of old would’ve done the genocide themselves.
I know that it is, but that was after the Horde freed the Zandalari princess and after the Zandalari were so severely weakened that they couldn’t shift the balance of power towards the Horde anymore.
Remember, before the Horde went to Zandalar it was one of the, if not the, most powerful independant nation on Azeroth.
After the Horde went to Zandalar they went through a civil war/betrayal from within, were partially invaded by blood trolls, their Loa were weakened (some were even killed!) and the Alliance blew up their navy and port.
We can’t know how it would’ve gone had Talanji met up with Vol’jin before Legion, the Zandalari might’ve even been able to nip all their blood troll and civil problems in the bud then and remained a extremely powerful nation.
Alright, bieng cautios of someone =/= childish and resentful behaviour.
Man, Sylvanas and Rokhan and Talanji really are bieng childish and resentful towards the Alliance. They could’ve had global, everlasting peace if they didn’t remain this childish and resentful for past actions.
Really the story of the Horde, letting their childish behaviour and resentfulness stand in the way of everlasting global peace.
Honestly, and this is assumption, but I think that Talanji would’ve done the same as she did now. She was underway to the Horde (and their Warchief Vol’jin) because she felt her father wasn’t taking their problems seriously. (Exactly the same happened when she was freed… what two years later?),
The Alliance either somehow got word of this or encountered a troll flotilla on the sea and decided to capture such a important figure (remember the Alliance and Horde at that time thought the Zandalari invaders on Pandaria and ZA/ZG were under direct orders from their King) to use her as either ransom or to make sure she didn’t meet with the Horde and strengthen them even more beyond the Alliance.
This is not true.
Humans have been visiting Kalimdor since around the Second War at the earliest.
The high elves of Quel’thalas send an expedition to Winterspring hundreds of years ago.
Ogres sailed to Kalimdor after the Second War and before the Third War.
Gadgetzan was already a well-established bustling port city (And capital of the Steamwheedle Cartel, a Old Horde faction) since before the Second War.
I don’t think she was bieng rude. She was open about her fear of Thalyssra turning into a second Elisande, or worse Azshara. Then Thalyssra placated her bieng saying that she fought against Elisande’s opression and then Tyrande restated she was commited to freeing Suramar, but that afterwards it was up to Elune how their relationship developed. (Though, admittedly how we percieve that conversation might be influenced by our cultures IRL).
She says that to the player tho, not Thalyssra.
Fair enough… still think Liadrin was using false sympathy points to sweeten the nightborne up for the Horde.
“Oh, we totaaaaally know how you feel, we lost our Sunwell too. Unlike the night elves who totally didn’t lose their Well of Eternity twice”
Uuuh, where was that stated? I must’ve missed that.
Not saying they don’t, I like the nightborne with the Horde (if only they had more customisation options), just hate how Tyrande is made out to be this super evil leader, with only bad intent and rudeness towards the nightborne when all I see is a leader that (might’ve) been way to direct.
The blood elves had both the advantage of also bieng former Highborne and off not having lived the nightborne’s betrayal. Unlike Tyrande, who was neither Highborne ad had lived it all.
(Also, where was Mordent Evenshade and the Shen’dralar? Or heck, even Vereesa and her Silver Covenant here? THey had nothing to do or say with a literal Highborne city still intact?)
I admit the Alliance was wrong in this case, I just abhor the notion that if the Alliance hadn’t acted the way they did against the Zandalari before they joined the Horde, they would’ve not become allies or whatever.
Fact is that the way it went between the Alliance, Horde and Zandalari now was the second best outcome the Alliance could’ve wished for. The Zandalari empire has (partially) crumbled, they lost their navy (second largest in the world), they had a massive civil war and betrayal, some of their Loa gods perished in that conflict and their King lays death.
The Zandalari joined the Horde when the Zandalari were at their weakest and couldn’t shift the balance of power even more into the Horde’s favour.
While not going as planned, it was a way better deal than what the Alliance could’ve gotten had they let the Zandalari Empire and New Horde do what they wanted.
I mean that the night elves raised a mist to conceal kalimdor from sailors for thousands of years is canon, although we don’t know exactly when it was dispelled, but at the very least it was gone by the time of wc3 as I said. Although it’s not really mentioned often, it is mentioned in what is considered canon sources like the warcraft encyclopedia.
I don’t think she meant to be rude, it just comes off that way, and she certainly didn’t have any plans to develop further close relations. As you can see in her mindset here.
She also calls them them mana-addicts in private, which really shows us what she thinks of them, she also says that she left behind all regret about the nightborne the moment they shielded themselves from the world while the rest of them fought the legion.
Oh yeah, she definitely sweetened the Horde but it’s not full lies either.
When Liadrin discusses recruiting the nightborne with Sylvanas at the very start of the recruitment, she says the Sin’dorei are still in diplomatic relations with them.
Also, I have to excuse my help with the rebuilding comment, as I think I got that wrong as we only see Horde helping them with supplies and rebuilding after officially joining the Horde.
Still my point is that the sin’dorei kept close relations with the nightborne even after their liberation.
Yeah that’s a bit weird tbh, I suppose one excuse is that they didn’t want their own highborne too close to a full-on remnant of the old highborne culture in fear of them defecting as they didn’t think too highly/trust them or something, this is just speculation though. The first time the highborne received a positive reaction for their arrival like cheering was during the war of thorns, and since that hadn’t happened yet they might have still been kept on a short leash.
Yet somehow ogre, human, goblin, thalassian, trollish and who knows what else sailors passed through the mists and travelled Kalimdor.
Blizzard bieng Blizzard I guess
Fair enough, I read it as keeping it up in the air, or Elune in this case. But I can understand when someone else reads it differently.
Which is weird because Mordent Evenshade is the equal of Tyrande and Malfurion, as per the agreement they made when they rejoined Kaldorei society. They even were allowed to keep their own culture. But I guess this is a Blizzard bieng Blizzard again…
Sometimes, I miss the consistent stories from WotLK and before, y’know?
