No direct assault here… Shammy said it all. If u want people to feel sorry for you try feeling sorry for them.
Was just a question. We see other ethicists responding to people that disagree with verbal abuse, and I just wonder if that is ethical. And if not, are more minor things like putting someone down to make a point ethical? Where is the line?
Based on feedback from Ark, I’ve created a very short anonymous 10 question WPvP ethics survey. This post was designed to probe the mindset of ethicists, and was interesting. We got opinions on both sides of the issue. The survey is just straightfoward questions.
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I think talking with you is a waste of time. I answered all your questions but you didnt answer to not even one of my questions. If you wish to continue our conversation, you must answer theese topics. We cant talk and only I to answer to your questions/accusation/arguments and you to dont give a sh#t about my questions. Here they are, i would like a answer to each question or argument. If you refuse, then we end our conversation:
- Majority of players make a conscious decision to join WM because of the rewards. Not because they really want to WM. Answer with agree or disagree and give argument why.
- A change is to remove all rewards, so that there is no “motivation” for pve players to join. This will filter players that love wpvp from players that doesnt like wpvp, but they join because the rewards are there. Agree or disagree+arguments why.
- Blizzard should remove any type of PVE rewards from wpvp content/quests, rewards like PVE gear,AP,resources,etc and should keep only conquest/honor rewards and if in later patches/expansions they add pvp gear, then to give pvp gear as reward. Because in pvp the gear is scalled, players dont need max ilvl gear to be competitive in pvp. Agree or disagree+ arguments why.
- Is it ethical to gank 5v1 a player? Yes or no + argument why.
- Is it ethical to camp a corpse and harras a player? Yes or no + argument.
- Is it ethical to sneak atack a player that has 30% hp while he is fighting a elite? Yes or no +argument.
- Actual War Mode concept is broken in almost all aspects (quests,invasions,sharding,scalling,un-ethical, and may more). Agree or disagree + argument.
- You refuse to accept that the ratio between horde and alliance population is almost equal and balanced in the EU region, the number of players exist but the number of players with WM activated doesnt exist. You also refuse to give a answer or opinion why majority of alliance players dont or refuse to activate WM. Agree or disagree + argument.
- You refuse to accept that majority of the wpvp comunity dislikes the current status of the WM. You also refuse to accept that 80% of the opinions/reviews/comments on the WM forum section are negative or full of complains . Agree or disagree + argument.
- You refuse to accept the unfairness of how Blizzard is helping the alliance, although there is no real reason . Yes, i would agree the alliance to receive help (bonuses,extra quests,extra gear,etc) if the total population ratio between horde and alliance would be 80% or something like that in favor for the horde . But when all sites and all statistics say that the ratio is 51% and 49% alliance, almost equal , i dont see the logic to favor a faction just for 1% difference. Agree or disagree + argument.
- You refuse to accept that the alliance players are more “ un-ethical ” and more “ abusive ” in wpvp than horde players. Even if majority of complains in the forum, of un-ethical behavior are about alliance players . Agree or disagree + argument.
- You talk about hipocrisy? About ethical victims and harrasment? When you had the chance to fight vs me alone but you choosed to lure me to your group and then 10 of your group jumped on me to kill me? Who was in our case the victim? You or me? Answer who was the ethical victim and give also a argument if you wish.
…
I amswered to your 5 arguments, each one of them with agree or disagree and argumenting why. Although you denied my “but” , i will accept in any of your arguments the “but” and its continuation.
If you dont answer to each of thoose 12 questions/arguments with agree or disagree and then give your argument why, i will consider that you dont care what others think (although you stated that you care) and refuse to continue this conversation. I prooved myself open, by giving and trying to express my point of view, although you used a sneaky tactic to proove your point.
If you dont answer to all 12 questions, then we end our conversation and i will draw the logical conclusion that you really dont care about others people opinions and that you want to enforce only your opinion to others.
I wait your reply.
Your list of questions is much easier to respond to than various points mixed together, thanks. Better communication.
Disagree - because we don’t know if it’s a majority. Though I am sure it’s a lot.
Disagree - doesn’t bother me if PvE rewards are removed, but if ALL rewards are removed I will have to get gear in other game modes such as Mythic+. I have no interest in PvE, so I’d either have to do things I don’t want to do, or put up with whatever gear I buy on AH. However, removing PvE rewards would have a drastic lowering effect on WM pop, which could kill WM. Some of those PvEers also PvP - but remove PvE rewards and you lost them. Not enough players in WM could see it be discontinued.
Disagree - I am not bothered about PvE rewards, as long as I get gear. However, there will be drastic reduction in WM on players, and Blizz may decide to just discontinue WM in next expansion. They have likely thought it through, and current system has a good number of players. If they were to discourage the most PvE of players, rather than eliminate all of them, some of whom are PvP+PvPers - that would be better.
Yes - because within the official rules, and my own personal rules, it is ethical. Other people’s ethical rules do not apply to me in my opinion. Why is it ethical to me? Because the enemy turned on WM and must accept consequences - my philosophy is anything goes if WM on. That’s my ethics, I don’t tell others to follow my rules, and same for anyone expecting me to follow their rules.
Yes - It is ethical because it’s not harassment as stated by Blizz. The enemy player chose to enable WM. They asked for PvP, not on their terms, on the terms of their enemies in game. It is not considered harassment because the enemy player has many options to avoid PvP combat. Number one is to WM off. But also; res at graveyard, Rhan’ka’s Escape Plan, hearth, flight whistle, change shard, group up, etc. By not doing any of the easy escape options, they are willing victims.
Yes - and again, because they chose to WM on, my ethics philosophy is anything goes and accept consequences. As per previous answer, the enemy has many options to deal with this situation.
Disagree - most aspects of WM I have fun with, so in my opinion it is not broken. Sharding is the only issue I’d bring up, and in my experience it causes me little difficulty in WPvP.
Disagree - that I refuse to accept ratio according to realm pop the numbers are “almost equal and balanced” in region. We don’t have real Blizz stats, but what we do have says it’s about even. It’s not fact though, it’s an estimate - so we don’t know for sure.
We don’t know the WM numbers, we can only go by the bonus % which is currently 10% for Horde and 15% for Alliance, which seems not too different.
I don’t know that majority of Alliance players refuse to or don’t turn on WM, but WM bonus amount says otherwise.
Agree - that I refuse to accept the majority of the WPvP community dislikes the current state of WM. We don’t know that, only what forum dwellers say on here. I agree that a large number of forum posts are complaints, I don’t know exact %.
But the forum posters do not represent all of the community. It is possible that people with a grievance are more likely to post a complaint, than someone is happy posting a positive post. We just don’t know. If you think about the total WoW EU player community, and the number that post on forum, it’s a tiny fraction of all WoW EU players.
Agree - that I refuse to accept the in your words unfairness. I say there is a reason for outnumbered bonus, and it’s to help reduce the number of single faction overflow shards. If you look back to posts before AOO, there were Horde complaints about overflow shards. That seems to have stopped or far less frequent because of AOO. Ofc the faction not getting these extra rewards can feel it’s unfair. But it seems mostly unfair to them on principle, they are not actually losing anything significant in terms of reward.
Agree - that I refuse to accept Alliance are more, in your words unethical and abusive. I suspect it’s about even. There’s no evidence one side is less ethical than the other.
It was not hypocrisy for me, as I’ve stated my ethics are anything goes within the rules stated by Blizz - and other players ethics don’t matter to me unless they are Alliance and in my group. It was also not harassment as defined by Blizz. You dismiss Blizz rules… but they made the game, they set the rules, the players play within those rules, no problem.
I do care 
But if you need further info, just lemme know!
See, this process has made us both list the things we are bugged about, and it was easier to respond to individual points. Simpler points work best, with one main issue per point.
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Your wpvp ethics doesnt match with my ethic. As much you would try to convince me to change my mind or i would try to convince you to change your mind, we both know that this is impossible.
I am a old style type of wpvp player. I miss thoose old days, back in vanilla days and a few expansions after, when i was questing alone in a zone and suddently i saw a enemy, he saw me and we started to fight. That is what i consider old style wpvp.
What we got now is a chaos. A carnage full with gore, where the largest group wipes evwrything in its path.
The only reason why i keep WM on, and its not because of that 10% bonus (i already maxed neck almost 3 months ago, i got plenty of war resources, my gear is maxed heroic possible,etc), its because that out of 100% fights i have in wpvp, 10% are “classic vanilla style” as exemplified above. Thats it, for thoose 10% encounters, when i really have the chance to do a spontaneous fight with a random guy and hoping to win. That encounter is more satisfying than 100 raids and 100k kills done in one day.
On the other hand, concluding your answers, i can say that you are exactly the oposite type of player, compared with me. You like large fights, doesnt matter if they are un-equall or not, where players kill eachother on a gore style of game.
At least i got my answer and i wont try from now on to convince you about my wpvp ideology. I will abstain to reply to any of your comments from now on.
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One of the things I love about WPvP, is that different players can play it in different ways. That aspect of ethics, it’s slightly different ethics per player. That leads to many random and interesting situations, a slightly different experience per player. Love it.
When I see something I disagree with, I’m gonna disagree. It’s okay to disagree
Yep, this is part of the differences in opinion. Player experience as well as prefs dictate how we feel about WM.
For me, WM was a big upgrade over Legion.
I WoW’d since 2007, but did not WPvP until Legion, on a quiet RPPvP server Defias… solo hunting Horde late night, finding some, having fun.
My experience in BfA, to me is a big upgrade, because all I wanted was to kill Horde. And there was now a plentiful supply. Sharding didn’t cause me any issue, as long as there was Horde, and plenty.
The new community system meant that I could find like minded players, and WPvP with players I knew, always more fun. A big upgrade for me.
LfG in Legion was quiet at the time I played, and little reason to use it. In BfA, awesome, suddenly LfG being used a lot, that was a novelty and seemed a big upgrade.
Big battles at start of BfA on a regular basis, now I have nostalgia for that. I did not experience battles like that in Legion. They are less often now, but fun.
The novelty of large LfG groups is now wearing off on me though. Now and again is fun. I am more inclined to want to WPvP with a party of my community members, not even a full party, and it’s a lot of fun to me. I only really use LfG now when outnumbered.
You can be lucky with LfG and meet friends, that’s what happened with my community. But more often, LfG players are very focused on completing their quest. That can be annoying when you want to chill kill, but that’s just LfG. It’s purpose is fast and convenient objective completion. I mostly use it for bounty help.
In terms of ethics, some of it is personality, past experience in WPvP, fun faction rivalry, playing a lot of FPS games in the past where it’s kill kill kill no mercy kill then kill again and again, and just fun to be on a kill roll. That’s ganker mentality. But I love 1v1 too and am learning. I very rarely corpse camp, but have no issue with it for reasons already stated. If enemies could not avoid it, I would not do it.
Anyway, enjoying BfA or not is about perspective and experience. From my point of view, big upgrade over Legion WPvP.
If you want to see what anonymous players think about wpvp ethics, check out my player rules survey!
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i agree with all 6 points. BUT that is not the situation that people are most aggrieved about. thats what you dont get, and others defending such actions, (especially below 120) dont get.
WM is NOT wpvp as it was from 2004-2018, aka pre BfA. it is blizz’s attempt to balance pvp servers, without actually balancing them. on pvp servers, there was NO pve reward buff, which is what WM is. 10-30% bonus xp, azerite, gold or resources. All primarily, if not exclusively, pve currency.
And while i agree with your 6 points for the average wpvp encounter, the ACTIONS of players SHOWS the TYPE of player they are. a 120 farming 100-111’s during legion invasions, when the lowbies are there FOR ONE REASON ONLY shows that that 120 is bit of a !£$%^&**. no one is saying they need to follow any rules, they should understand why the person is there (lvling) and leave them be. they are 10-20 lvls higher than them.
TRUE wpvp is players going against each other where they are close in lvl. its not a ilvl400+ player ganking people 10-60 lvls below them. the issue about being outnumbered, well… thats issues with sharding and is another story.
remove WM buffs, THEN we will be able to evaluate wpvp properly. until then, the mix of people with WM on ONLY for the buffs will skew ANY and ALL results.
Maybe. One or two are vocal about ethics, but the player rules survey indicates that the ethicals are a minority in the WM community.
That’s good, and the survey indicates that most don’t follow other players rules anyway.
The lowbie made a choice to WM on for benefits. That’s risk v reward. Most players have no problem killing lowbies, even if they don’t necessarily do it themselves.
True WPvP depends on the individual player’s definition. My view is that it’s anything goes, if it can be done do it. Others see True WPvP as community rivalry between guilds, and anything less is not True WPvP. Or small scale 10v10 battles is true WPvP, or large 40v40 is, city raids. Or 1v1, or 40v1.
It’s player perception, just as with the ethics rules. And to me, that’s one of the great things about this game mode, can be played how you want.
PvEers can be reduced in WM with PvP activity. It’s like natural selection, there are as many PvEers as the PvPers tolerate. The real problem, is not killing enough questers and resource gatherers. In between doing that ‘job’, there can be good fights with WPvPers.
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you missed my main point :s
Situation 1
the main place where 120’s farm lowbies is in legion, the 100-111 grind. in 1-90 content, its usually faster to dungeon level, or there aren’t enough people in a certain area to make it worth it for a 120 to hang around. in 90-101 its fastest just collecting WoD treasures, so people wont really be on the ground long enough to gank. in 111-120 islands are one of the fastest ways to level, so again people wont be out and about. also, if you’ve lvled more than once or twice in BfA 111-120, you probably dont want to go out there again, so again, one less person out in the world, and one more using islands.
SO… when we are talking about ganking lowbies, most of the time we are talking about legion invasions where 120’s are killing players of 100-111.
Situation 2
i dont know what wpvp was like on a pvp server from 2004-1018, i never played on one. but over the years, im guessing it would be harder and harder to find players due to lfg lvling, sharding, people leaving etc. but pvp realms were just what they were. a realm where you were constantly in pvp, with NO benefits.
someone who thinks that pvp is to numerically swap a single player is not a pvper, however you want to spin it. if the player has the mindset that they need a situation where they CANT lose (120v 100 player, 40 people v 5 etc) then they are not a pvper, and most likely, actually c**p at pvp or rely on class imbalance (pala bubbles etc), fotm spec/class or high ilvl discrepancy.
WM is not Wpvp. its a mechanism to allow them to scrap pvp realms (cause of faction imbalance or low pop?) while trying to get pver’s to turn it on for pve based rewards.
until you or others making the argument for killing anyone NOW, understand the difference between wpvp 2004-2018 and WM, then we’re not going to get anywhere.
Good ganking in legion place u say…
Do you know of any other locations?
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its so hard in this day and age to correctly pick up on subtle humor when presented in a text format. im presuming this is a joke?
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haha ![:rofl:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/rofl.png?v=6" ":rofl:")
In Legion, this was quite normal. Doesn’t matter if a 110 killing lowbies in Legion, or a 120 killing lowbies in BfA’s Legion zones. Same result.
Lowbie ganking has been, is, and always will be part of WPvP.
The players that want a WPvP zone levelling experience will do it. Those that don’t, won’t. Simple as that. What’s important is, I see a lot more max levels in BfA zones than I remember in Legion - an improvement, since WPvP is primarily a max level activity.
I only know from Legion. The PvP realm I was on was faction balanced. Fun at the time, but quiet compared to BfA.
In my experience, with no bonus in Legion, the WPvP opponent quality was similar to BfA WPvP - variable. Except in BfA we have faction balance unlike most PvP realms, and more activity. That’s why I see no reason to drop the bonus in BfA. The purest PvErs can be removed from WM via PvP.
People pvp for different reasons, it’s all wpvp. I don’t worry about what other players are doing.
Maybe worrying too much about what others are doing is part of dissatisfaction with WM. Almost like an anxiety issue. I feel like I see more complaints about others ganking, than complaints about having actually been ganked.
The two surveys are showing interesting results about what the WM community actually thinks about wpvp and wm.
Ethics?
Low level person of any faction, I log the faction that can gank, and gank them until some 120’s show up. Then stealth away, relog the faction that can talk to them and thank them for the entertainment.
anyone is free to get ganked with war mode on.
If I get 5+ max level people wanting to gank me on either faction, I just let them kill me once, then AFK as a ghost and watch a series or a movie. Maybe even go outside and ride my bicycle for a while.
No need to stay by the computer if some angry people want to gank me.
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So basically you’ll only WPVP if it means being able to press a single button once?
Sure. Path of least resistance to a win, and other words.
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Seems trivial to call it a win.
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Win is win. Level does not matter as long as war mode is on.
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i still think you are missing the difference between wpvp on a pvp server and wpvp through WM.
but maybe im just a decent person who doesn’t feel it necessary to be a d**k all the time and go around killing people lower level than me who are only wanting to get to 120 as fast as possible so i can have cheap thrills at their expense.
and as such i will never be able to reason with people who think it is actually tangible fun to attack players who have NO hope of defending themselves. thus, pointless trying to point this out anymore :\
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There’s nothing to compete against when its someone you can 1 shot because of level difference though. I would only class it a “win” if the other person could compete on the same level.
Many people let lowbies just get on with their stuff but then many people also do what Zethmonk does. The Rebel Camp area in Northern Stranglethorn will pretty much show you this on a high pop server.
Dwarf kill ganker ![:skull_and_crossbones:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/skull_and_crossbones.png?v=6" ":skull_and_crossbones:")
Ganker crys ![:sob:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/sob.png?v=6" ":sob:")
Dwarf makes saltwater potion ![:star_struck:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/star_struck.png?v=6" ":star_struck:")
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