While it’s true that dps meters don’t accurately show Aug’s contribution and players who judge an Aug based on the meters don’t understand how it works, there’s also a flip side to this issue.
A bad Augmentation Evoker will be hard to read with meters too. A lot of people are ignoring player skill is a factor and simply having an Aug in the party isn’t a static contribution. The run might be going a bit slow and you look to the Aug and they wave you away with “no, no, I’m buffing you, you just can’t see it on Details!”.
WCL isn’t entirely accurate and Details is worse, so the job is pretty much a “trust me bro” in pugs. It might turn out that people exclude Aug outside highest end content because it’s not worth the risk, especially if they balance the spec and make it less OP.
This is a very valid concern yeah, I’ve already had my fair share of evokers across the spectrum in higher keys and the difference is pretty huge but you can’t see it on meters.
Can’t honestly tell if I’m a good or bad augvoker, but so far today I’ve run a +13, 14, 17, 20 and 21, and the only one not timed was the last - and we missed it by like 15 seconds. Details tends to show me doing 40-50k overall. The logs had me more like 85-105k. Might be a bit low, logs say I kept about 55% uptime on Ebon Might. I’m sure this can be improved, although I’m struggling to get above 75% on a target dummy and that’s not having to lose time due to moving between trash packs, etc.
Keys went well is the important point and was definitely fun hearing people laugh about the stupid big crits they’d get when Ebon Might was up, which did include pulling threat off the tank at one point
People just want a tool to point fingers at someone and blame them for the “group” failure instead of going “Hey its a group game, We all failed somewhere along the line”
Looking at the Evoker new spec it’s funny because Details or Recount are not implemented officially by Blizzard and could easily be broken by Blizz but they continue to let the community to use these tools as weapons against other player’s and then wonder why they are fleecing players but then the same players will then complain about “it takes me over 45 mins to find a group to do a key”
Maybe if the pool of players wasn’t getting smaller and smaller by the day and people were not already excluding people from that shrinking pool of players it wouldn’t take so long to find people.
People stop using these tools to belittle and berate other people and actually use your brain and understand how Augmentation Evoker works… I think this is an indication that these addons need to be broken and not used, They are GREAT at a personal level but as a group tool they have no business, Do I need to know how much damage the tank is mitigating, or how much healing the healer is doing or even how much damage the people im grouped with are doing, All I need to know is what I done in a previous run and am I doing better than before by comparing myself to myself.
All of these outcomes will soon be apparent, If the healing isnt healing enough you,ll be dying all over the place, If the tank isnt mitigating enough he,ll be dying all over the place, and if the dps is too low you wont time the key but wont know until the end and then at the end if there was no meters just showing you your own DPS you would not be able to blame any one person unless you all shared your own results.
It probably was until people understand how it works and stop relying upon addons to say “This player is bad…” and people are less focused on numbers and use their brains but this is WoW and we all know how intellectual the playerbase can be.
That has nothing to do with details/recount however.
It still would. The people that complain are DPS. DPS always had to wait significantly longer than tanks or healers. On 1 tank and 1 healer you have at least something like 30 dps. You are competing for a spot where a poopton of people apply and unless you either have the gear or the rating (which blizzard provides) or a needed group buff or youre meta your queue time will increase further.
Would change nothing. People even before evoker had all the options to read stuff in the logs (hello enha shaman during sanctum) but the average player is simply put not exactly smart. This behavior is as old as time and doesnt just happen in this game.
Yes you do. If you want to find the issues within your team and want to address them. Especially the higher you go in difficulty.
Which you have logs to check for. Was it just the healers slacking, a singular healer, wrong usage of CD, the DPS or the Tanks failing etc etc njada njada.
Or the healer compensates.
Its not just the DPS (as in regards of how good each individual player is) but also in regards of the tank pulling, healer healing through or other similar abilities that allow to mass pull properly etc. Also you know most of the time when a key is going to deplete ages before it actually depletes.
Also youre just going to make it easier for people hiding their slack. So someone isnt pulling his weight and now he cant even be checked? Oh yeah, that’s gonna be “great”. We already have an issue with people doing key levels they have no place in whatsoever.
The whole spec is bad from a design pov in general because classes are going to be balanced around it. And we know they do that considering PI exists.
Thus far Augmentation is behaving exactly to the core how we predicted it to be. From people looking at the in game dmg meter having no clue and classes getting balanced around it as well as it causing even more balance issues.
Aug evoker is only as good as it’s teammates, if you run it with someone who doesn’t know how to play it’s class it’ll not be as good since it relies on others to do damage for it.
This sentence here kind of implies that you are some kind of authoritative figure and assumes that because of the content you are doing that this allows you to pinpoint or “point the finger at someone” because of a failure within the group and unless you are doing the “pinnacle” and are in the top 10 ranked players in the world for your class then what gives you the right to say anything?
Why can’t it be as simple as a “Group” failure, Why does it have to fall upon 1 person to blame for the failure?
I feel that the tools are good but they are used in the wrong manner.
If we are talking about higher keys or raids (or just difficulty for that matter) then going into logs (after a wipe/deplete) is simply how it its being done. You want to find and pinpoint the mistakes that were being done (by everyone, not just one) and then address them in a proper manner. That is not “point the finger at someone”.
This is constantly being done during progression raiding. And its also as important in high keys since you are forced to min max there.
Because it isnt always just a group failure. It often is and it also often isnt.
Yeah, so? You will always have these people that have this particular mindset and dont know what they are talking about. Tool or not. At the same time youre also removing the tool from people that actually know how to use it.
“Address them in the proper manner??” Holy crap that’s some kind of line you would hear from a work meeting.
Erm please mr supervisor go and “have a chat” with X person because they have not hit this months target’s.
For which I am sure they are already aware I would imagine.
From being a Raid Leader I do understand how the tools work and how they are used and I even had to use them from time to time to basically talk to people who were doing less than 20k DPS on HC Tarragrue and say “We are wiping to hard enrage timer”, You need to do more DPS else step out because we cant kill it.
So I do know that in raid content it can be quite useful but I feel that it,s taken too far when it,s used in 5 man content, Even I can understand and appreciate that there is targets to be hit in 5 man content but this has WAY more variables than a raid environment.
For example, Did the tank pull fast enough?, Did we die too much?, Did we do all the important interrupts?, Did we buttpull extra trash? , Did the healer provide enough DPS to assist?, Did the overall DPS meet expected requirements?, Was X person not doing enough DPS because they were spending too many GCD,s on defensives, Was X person potting every available opportunity, Did everyone have Food and Consumables?, Did they refresh consumables? Did we waste time doing that? Did we spend too long on each boss? Do we have enough ST dmg? these are just some of the variables affecting a M+ Run,
Jesus christ. There is a difference in someone saying “herpaderp do more dmg ffs herpdaderp” and trying to figure out in a constructive way how to improve your performance. And progression raiding / key pushing requires a lot of time to a point where in fact a lot of people would deem it “work”.
And performance isnt just ones dps/hps.
You would be surprised how often people are not. Or they think they are doing fine while in fact they are not.
I do agree that some people need to wake up and understand their own limitations I know my limit is probably 20,s because I feel my damage is a bit low , My demo lock is overall about 80k DPS at 438 ilvl but is this because my tank doesnt pull confidently enough or is it my healer not coping and im using a lot of defensives during every run (A dead dps does 0 dps right?) when a tank does pull massive I can easily do over 200k which in turn affects my overall.
Im not a min maxxer at rotations and things i usually sim and thats about it lol which is why i say 20,s is probably my limitation personally.
Of course it,s not it’s how much avoidable damage did they take? Did they use defensives wisely?, Did they actually do boss mechanics correctly? and a few varying other factors interrupts etc.
Read my last update So I am kind of agreeing with you to a degree.
5man content also becomes similar to raids on high key levels. The min maxing becomes even more important I’d say based solely on the nature of M+. On high keys people have to defacto min max pretty much everything.
Yes. And you can check that and other stuff in logs. And people use it for high keys because they have to. Its not needed as much (or at all) at lower keys but that is irrelevant. The people that throw a tantrum about that in lower keys would also do it even if you remove all their tools because they would still try to copy the top players and given most (if not all) dont even check logs etc to begin with they do it based on assumption of what you did or didnt and they will do that even after you remove said tools. This has always happened and it will always happen.
I dont personally care what your limit is. That is your concern, not mine. The point is that the higher you go in difficulty (or world ranks in terms of mythic raiding) the more and more logs and the such become useful and are properly used at the higher levels (also more people start to be able to read the logs properly since they are more often confronted with it on a constructive level).
People that dont know how to read logs but still want to go “wäh wäh wäh” are best off ignored in the first place. If its in M+ /ignore and leave. If its in a guild /gquit and find a better guild since one wont be happy with such people in the first place.
You are correct where low end players try to copy top end players, I usually watch Zmok and Naguura, Naowh mostly but I wont try to copy them because I am not half the player’s they are lol
I never asked you to care what my limit was I was merely making a point of agreeing with you about people knowing their limts.
Do the logs show total time used eating during a dungeon? or total time wasted running back from death? or total time spent moving between each pull ?
Please show me as I couldnt find that info on WCL, Just asking?
Dungeon logs show every action spent inside so yes you can find the ‘Eating food’ buff in someone’s logs and check when it was and what it’s uptime was. Deaths + runbacks is trickier but you can see deaths pretty easily then check cast timelines to see the next time that person used an offensive ability when they got back to the fight.
Augmentation is about buffing the damage output of others and not about being a sole damage dealer. As this is a new addition to the holytriumvirate of DPS/Heal/Tank that existed since day 1,most people are not used to it.
It has good AoE but poor single target, and, being labeled as DPS class people expect it to actually deal damage, and it does when set up correctly the versa+ mainstat + crit and damage echo buff has a huge impact but it’s not credited to the Evoker, thus she/he will be on the bottom of the dps meter in a lot of cases, and we all know what happens to low number producing DPS classes in public groups…
So I am kind of agreeing with you to a degree.
