Faerin Lothar, WTF is this writing?

No, I mean her statement about using Baine to fight toxic masulinity in the WoW story. She said that. Look it up.

She basically developed Anduin. Before she got invovled, nobody knew about him, but she started him out in MoP and since she joined the writing team, we have had more Anduin than every other character, we still do, the expansion we are playing right now is written, in part, by her. Anduin as you see him now, is all her. So I don’t know, if you don’t see a pattern here, it’s because you don’t want to.

And I suggest playing a Forsaken, start to finish, learn who they are and you’ll answer the question you asked.

Danuser was part of the problem. I have issues with a lot of his crap, but much less than I have with Golden’s crap.

And I honestly don’t care how you rationalize it. My issue has been with Golden for a long time, she was an admitted alliance fangirl. Again, look it up, she said it. And I’m sure she’s not the only one to blame, but she is to blame, because once she joined in, in BFA we effectively saw the Horde being written out of the story.

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And… that’s a bad thing, because…? So far, no ingame character has preached to us about gender roles. The only people who I saw even address the matter are players who somehow feel threatened because the King of Stormwind isn’t a flawless overpowered fantasy of a roleplay-beginner anymore - but instead a mortal being with personal struggles.

Even if we ignore that Anduin is one of, if not the most developed character(s) in the game: Are you telling me that Christie Golden walked in and just decided to prioritize Anduin in story, even though she wasn’t in any leadership position? And that Danuser and Hazzikostas just went with it? You’re not proving a causality here, you’re pointing out a correlation and make assumptions, because you don’t like her.

So you can’t / don’t want to answer a very simple question or give any examples for their destruction, but tell me to “play Forsaken” instead. And if I did and came to a different conclusion than yours - what would you say then?

“Crap” that you just assume Golden is responsible for.
You’re right, there’s really not much to “rationalize” here.

Again, correlation and causality. Two pair of shoes. :man_shrugging:

It’s obvious you know better. So go ahead, lay it on us. Tell us the real story we are not privy to. I’m listening.

No, Golden was an excellent writer in my opinion, and she is not responsible for this type of decisions. Golden simply wrote the stories that Blizzard already set up for her, she wasn’t a lead narrative designer. Some of the recent plot fails were likely Danuser’s fault, as it was also his responsibility. He did also do some good things for the story though, such as setting up the cosmology forces in shadowlands. However, I believe Danuser caused way more bad than good for the story, but luckily they focus now on what he did well, and ignore narratively what he messed up. I also don’t really want Blizzard to fix the story of the Orcs until I think they actually can narrate a brutal, dark vibe like this. Obviously wow players don’t like the Horde for the kind of Vibe that Blizzard has established in the last 3 xpacs

You’re the one making assumptions, so you’re asked for proof, with the note that “personal bias” and “Because I want it to be true!” doesn’t count as such.
Really, it’s not rocket science. You claim it, you prove it.

I never said that “I know the real story” - something that I even mentioned before:

I’m just here to call out baseless assumptions whenever they are presented as a fact.

Absolutely agree. I wasn’t a big fan of the BfA story and… don’t get me started of the wasted story potencial in SL. I also disliked how they spread important story developments over several pieces of media (game, books, short storiees, etc.).
I shouldn’t have to read a book in order to understand how a character in the game returned or became undead - that should (at least in summary) be part of the game.

Focussing on the things that worked is the best strategy moving forwward - I wouldn’t even mind if they revealed someday that it was the Primus who controlled the Jailer in SL the entire time; the breadcrumbs are already there and it would finally (even though way too late) establish the Primus as the masterful tactician that we heard so much about, yet never got to see in action.

I kind of disagree with this part actually. I think it’s a bit of a waste, that the warcraft story is only told through the MMORPG. I wish they would create more new studios, who take aspects of the story, that aren’t well explained, and make new games, or spin-off tv shows about it. For example they could make a show or a movie about Moiras Life, and I think people would like it a lot. Or they could make a movie about Arthas, as his story is only explained in a pixelated 2000s RTS

Yeah, cause you keep talking like you know better. So I gave you a chance to clarify. So you don’t. You are just sure I’m wrong. That’s ok. You can do that.
The thing is I don’t think I’m wrong. When I say she had a major influence on the story and the deterioration of the story. Golden had some influence when she wrote novels for Warcraft, she rounded up, Jaina, Anduin and Baine, those were the characters she focused on in her novel between MoP and WoD. Back then she had the freedom to speak openly and she admitted she’s a fangirl. Fact.

She officially joined the WoW team in BFA, incidentally the time when the story started to feature these exact chracters havely and when I feel like we started getting a very bad and biased story. Effectiveley BFA turning into MoP2, down to the detail the Horde lose prety much everything. The most stoic and masculine character in WoW, Saurfang gets turned int a mopey traitor and killed off in the dumbest way possible. Coincidence? From there on, we have Shadowlands, another abomination, where the Horde is effectively written out of the story, the story heavily featuring Alliance characters. More Jaina, more Anduin, the only Horde character featured is no longer Horde. Coincidence? Moving on to DF. Again, Horde is out of the story, we get half of the expansion making trees for nelfs. Then comes Calia who closes the deal for me, another one of Golden’s characters who decides to save the Horde by… doing stuff for the Alliance. Coincidence?

And here we come to the current expansion. The Horde is not featured again, you basically spend the first part of the expansion following around Alliance characters across every zone while the story focuses heavily on one character, Anduin, her pet project, more so than Alleria who seems to be the Yang to the knife girl’s Yin. Coincidence?

Now we find out that she got booted and Metzen is back.

So based on those, I am gonna conclude that she had a lot of impact on the story, via the narrative and her characters and it makes sense because under Activision things seemed to be chaotic there, with the sex scandals and all that. She’s also a very opinionated person and a champion of fighting toxic masculinity which can be clearly seen on her social media. In California. So yeah, I’m gonna assume she had a lot more influence than she would have otherwise and that is backed up by the fact that she got booted, because I think she didn’t want to play ball with the new leadership. If she was as non-influential as you claim, why fire her? Big move for a big name like her, a woman too. That is not to say that she’s the only one to blame, but since the above mentioned coincidences, I feel like she deserves a big chunk of the contempt I have for the whole charade that is the current WoW story.

As for my personal bias, yeah, I never hid that. I don’t think she was a good addition to the WoW story. First because of the toxic masculinity thing. She could have gone to the proper places to fight toxic masculinity, not used the game and people’s desire for entertainment to do that. I didn’t like that she’s a faction fangirl, because these people are biased and will always force their bias on the story and I don’t like how she writes her male characters. I get the impression she gets off on men’s crying. A dude a real dude isn’t gonna weep non stop. In fact when a real dude weeps it should be an impactful moment in the story, not the standard. So yeah, I got my personal issues with her just as I have with others, especially Steve.

So there you go. Lots of coincidences there. Now you seem to be convinced it’s not so, so please, go ahead show me how it’s not so, mr. White Knight.

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That’s not how this works :laughing:
You claimed things about Golden’s involvement. I asked you for evidence that your claims are more than just your own wishful thinking / headcanon.
First, you evaded my questions, then you told me to look for the evidence myself and now you’re attacking me for… not proving a negative? :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

If you claim it, you better be able to prove it.
It’s really that easy.

The only thing that doesn’t need proof here.

While, at the same time, seeing multifaceted characters and more authentic, less expositional dialogues in the cinematics. I agree that the BfA-story around Saurfang and Sylvanas was basically Vol’jin and Garrosh 2.0 - I’m also not a big fan that they repeated that theme, it felt like “SoO, this time done right”. That said, the cinematics and the conversations in it were the best part of BfA. Saurfang turned from a cliché “HONOR” yelling orc warrior into an actual character, matured and finally saw the origins of the Horde for what it was. If you have a problem with a character finally using his brain to make a reality check, I’m sorry, but that’s your problem. I waited for an orc to admit to the Horde’s bloody PR-campaign for a long time. The orcs were living in an illusion. What you call “death in the dumbest way possible”, is every warrior’s dream and a poetic ending to his story, if you ask me. Saurfang, who was always caught in a system of orders and traditions and had come to the realization that the Horde was just a tool for destruction, (literally) went out with a bang. Not only did he use that traditional system to challenge Sylvanas, an enemy physically superior to him, no, he managed to win, even though he had lost the sacred Mak’gora. Not only did this strong Orc warrior outwit one of Azeroths greatest strategists, he proved at the same time that the Warchief-system was flawed and outdated - all while getting the warrior’s death he was looking for since his son had died.

BfA may have been all over the place in terms of story and the slow pacing took a lot of excitement out of it - but if you ask anyone to name one good thing about BfA, people will most likely say that it were the Saurfang-cinematics. The story could have been great, had there been more “war” in it and not a SoO-reenactment with more cinematics.

See, that’s something that I can absolutely relate to. I’ve been saying for years that it’s getting boring to see the Horde always be the losing aggressor and the Alliance always as the righteous force of good without internal struggles. But that trend already started when demi-god Varian was introduced into the game, way before Christie Golden’s time at Blizzard. You have no idea how relieved I was when Anduin took over in Legion and I can’t help but compare these two characters to this day. With Anduin as an example of how to introduce a protagonist and Varian as an example of how not to do it.
Hell, maybe Golden even did come up with certain controversial ideas and storybeats - but what I’m trying to tell you is that she was probably never in a position to make a final decision - this is the director’s and lead’s responsibility. In the end, you can only blame Steve Danuser or maybe Ion Hazzikostas - and that’s a big assumption on my part, since I don’t know the exact hierarchy or inner workings at Blizzard.

See, this is the first thing that I read from you that I would consider a based assumption.

When was the game used to fight toxic masculinity? It’s become such a trigger word, why are people always freaking out, when with toxic, there is clear specification there, so it doesn’t condemn the concept of “masculinity” as a whole.

Like… when his father died? Or when he went through hell and has PTSD from it?

It’s so ridiculous to me that the “strong dudes” around here like to forget that Anduin was thrown on the Throne during a Legion Invasion after he lost his father, led the Alliance armies and basically conquered Undercity (projecting strength and confidence after his initial struggle), just to be kidnapped, mind-controlled and dragged through literal hell. Compared to that, you can see the “real men” and “strong dudes” around here constantly weeping because they find it annoying that this one male character (who still fights by their side against the evil monsters, even without the ability to use his magic- what a pussy, amirite?!) complains about his fears and insecurities from time to time. If it bothers you so much to see another man cry - maybe it’s time to take a look at yourself and ask yourself, why that is.

My stance on the topic is even more extreme:
A “real dude” doesn’t let “other dudes” tell him when it’s okay to cry or not - he just does it when he feels like it. Same thing goes for women btw.

Once more: No. That’s not the case. :yawning_face:
When I say that “You can’t know for certain that Golden is responsible for these decisions.” and you reply with "“Prove that she isn’t.”, you are being the one who’s acting irrational. As I mentioned at the beginning of this post, we can only make assumptions - because we both don’t work at Blizzard (correct me if you do).
I’m not trying to convince you of anything, I just wanted to point out that if you claim stuff, you should have better arguments than “But I want it to be true!” and “Google it yourself!” or some hard evidence to prove it.

Look let me cut this short cause I don’t like writing essays. Do you think it’s not possible for me to be right about what I said above? All those coincidental circumstances? Simple question.

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I think that it’s definetly possible that some of your assumptions could be true; but until we know for sure, we should still treat them as assumptions and not as facts.

Which is basically the point I was trying to make from the beginning. :wink:

We will never know for sure.

I think someone here didn’t play WC3, not at all. :roll_eyes:

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sorta ironic that a demon hunter talks about people being mary sues when they play the ultimate one :smiley:

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Even putting aside the laughable writing and obvious pandering, the fact that she’s written to not be a cat person is what truly makes me despise her.

I’m very fond of cats myself and I own a maine (second word censored, thanks Blizzard…) - a rather large breed of cat that is not only deeply affectionate but highly intelligent. As it happens, they also loosely resemble lynxes.

I’ve always liked how World of Warcraft tied cats to the various flavours of elves and so whilst I have reservations about half-elves effectively being added to the game in large numbers, that element of the Arathi appealed to me greatly.

Though Faerin, of course, has to go against the grain on that front as well. It’s the sort of subversive writing I despise. Some things are just ingrained into a culture and it makes them interesting and distinct.

Characters that exist just to be completely different to every other member of their race are often very boring, predictable and lame. You see it a lot with modern fantasy. This desperation to push characters that go against the grain so hard they become obnoxious and unlikable.

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So all it takes for you to despise a person is them not liking cats? What if someone is allergic they end up on your hit list or something?

This character has so many issues, her not liking cats is not one of them.

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I explained why. You either get it or you don’t.

I’ve already railed against the DEI/ESG nonsense associated with the character in other threads, though that particular element is another branch of the subversive approach such characters tend to take.

It’s not about not liking cats, specifically, it’s about a character despising something that is deeply ingrained in their culture and society.

The dwarves who despise alcohol and mining.

The elves who want open borders.

The undead who are pretty and perfectly preserved rather than rotten and with a spiteful streak towards the living.

No, I get it. She’s a rebel. She don’t like the stuff she’s supposed to. That was clear with the prosthetic deal. This is just another drop in the bucket of crap that is DEI Lothar.

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This must be a bait … surely. Did you do the quest ?
She never connceted her losing her arm and eye to her fate.

And to think this thread has 10 likes. Ayyy!

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But the guy is spot on. She did say that. Exactly. So who is baiting here?

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That quest was about helping Anduin let go of his doubt and work through his regrets.
That no matter her what story or experience was, she never regretted her actions or faith in the Light.
That she had every opportunity to question her faith, would it be her family who disapproved of her or her stowing away, losing arm and the eye in result.
It was not about being amputee is somewhat morally wrong but doubting oneself, despite their experience shakes faith and thats what Anduin is going through. The message is that past doesnt define individuals future.

As of her prostetic implant, it was done on purpose because many who are amputees get used to the fact of their missing limb - learn to live life with their new condition. It was nice touch in my opinion to pay respect to amputees who dont give up and find new purpose in life despite their unfortunate events

Is it objectivly better to have new prostetic ? Yes, in long run. But that logic would allow us to discuss some morally questionable subjects.

Point is she doesnt have the need to have her body augmented even more than it is to kick some serious butt.

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