Hello Paladins!
I’m posting this here for Lvladen, since he cannot post on the EU Forums
Hello everyone,
To keep it brief, here’s some feedback from experienced R1 Ret Paladin PvPers (Vanguards, Lvladen, Beatman, Pikapal, Sean, and Frumples).
The Problem:
Ret Paladin’s damage is currently too weak in PvP. The class also suffers from bugs, difficulty balancing spells, a long list of PvP modifiers, and a lack of meaningful PvP talents. Though designed to be forgiving, some spells like Divine Protection (a spell used while stunned) only reduce damage by 10% in PvP, which feels underwhelming.
Proposed Solutions:
Short Term (Hotfixable - Tuning and Bugs):
Even after recent buffs, Ret Paladin still lacks burst damage, which has historically been a core part of the class. Bugs with Herald of the Sun’s talent, Sun’s Avatar, and changes to Hammer of Light are making matters worse.
Even if Hammer of Light dealt the expected damage, the increased HP pools in 11.1 make burst less effective.
We suggest the following:
- Remove PvP modifiers from Avenging Wrath and Crusade (this would be a good starting point but may not be enough).
- Significantly buff Final Verdict to improve damage.
Medium Term (11.1.5 - PvP Talents):
Some PvP talents are either useless or underwhelming. Here are a few examples:
- Ultimate Retribution, Spreading the Word, and Shining Revelation have minimal PvP impact.
- Luminescence (passive healing not from the Player), Hallowed Ground (lack of control), and Spellbreaker (passive damage) all fail to meaningfully contribute to the Ret Paladin’s toolkit.
Wish List for PvP Talents:
- Mortal Strike: A Mortal Strike effect would help Ret Paladins in PvP. It could be applied through a PvP talent on Expurgation (15-20% Mortal Wounds) or a similar effect on Wake of Ashes (25-30% Mortal Wounds). This would allow Ret to play in 2v2 arenas and open up viable compositions.
- Undispellable Hammer of Justice: A PvP talent that would make Hammer of Justice undispellable with a slight tradeoff (e.g., -1 second duration).
- Steed of Glory: A skill taken from Protection Paladin that could help improve mobility.
- Emancipation: Adding a magic root and slow cleanse to the current Cleanse ability would give Ret a useful utility without being too oppressive (8 second CD, single target) compared to old Judgment of the Pure.
- 50% Slow: With Ret Paladin’s low mobility, a moderate slow would help make up for its lack of crowd control. Even Illumine is nerfed in PvP combat to be a 30% slow.
- Cataclysm Word of Glory - Significantly increase the healing of Word of Glory in exchange for some type of cooldown on the ability and potentially the inability to use Lay on Hands in PvP.
- Vengeful Strike - Reduce the range of Final Verdict and Justicar’s Vengeance by 40% (returns them to their prerework range) and increase the damage of each by 40%.
Long Term (11.2 or Beyond):
Ret Paladin has become complicated due to the number of talents and modifiers, many of which don’t work well together or have unclear PvP tooltips. This makes Ret difficult to balance, and stacking modifiers has created problematic gameplay.
DAMAGE Spells with PvP Modifiers include:
- Blessing of Dawn
- Final Reckoning
- Execution Sentence
- Avenging Wrath: Might
- Crusade
- Empyrean Legacy
- Divine Arbiter
- Wake of Ashes
- Hammer of Light
- Blessing of An’She
- Divine Purpose
All healing spells and talents for Ret Paladin also have PvP modifiers, aside from A Just Reward and the nerfed Lightforged Blessing and Seal of the Crusader.
Balancing Ret is difficult because of the sheer number of modifiers that stack on each other. This can lead to toxic one-shot scenarios, as seen after the 10.0.7 Ret rework, or cause key abilities like Final Verdict and Holy Power generators to feel underwhelming.
Currently, these modifiers are all tuned down, but it highlights the need to adjust multiple aspects of the spec when making balance changes.
Trade-Offs & Long-Term Suggestions:
Ret Paladin’s future design is ultimately in the hands of the developers, but we believe it needs a shift to return to its core as a powerful single-target DPS class, not a tank/support. We are willing to trade the following for power improvements:
- Lay on Hands and passive healing talents removal in return for significantly stronger Word of Glory and Flash Heal.
- Increase the cooldown of Sanctuary by 15 seconds.
- Increase the cooldown of Blessing of Sacrifice by 30 seconds.
- Remove the ability to use Divine Protection during stuns, in exchange for removing its PvP nerf.
In return, we need:
- A Mortal Strike talent.
- Removal of PvP modifiers on Avenging Wrath and Crusade.
- Significantly higher damage overall.
- Spells that deliver meaningful single-target damage instead of weak AoE effects like Blessed Champion. Although we understand the need for these AoE talents to exist for PvE it has greatly detracted from Retribution’s ability to land kills on a single target by shifting overall damage away from one target.
Ret is a DPS class and should be focused on delivering strong, impactful single-target damage, not prolonging games as a tank/support. I feel as the aforementioned point might be a design disagreement between the players and developers. As a PvPer it is much more enjoyable to have short, bursty two to three minute matches rather than drawn out seven to twelve minute games. Although it may look like Ret is designed to make games longer via Blessing of Protection, Lay on Hands, Divine Shield, Sacrifice and various other team utility spells it ironically does very poorly in drawn out games.
We all really appreciate you reading our feedback and hope to see changes soon!
Thank you,
Lvladen, Vanguards, Pikapal, Sean, Beatman, Frumples + The Ret Paladin Community
