Feedback: Death Knights

In this thread, we’ll be testing and talking about Death Knights in The War Within. Look here for posts from the development team as adjustments and bugfixes are made throughout the testing period.

Please note that off-topic or inappropriate posts will be strictly removed.

The War Within Beta

All classes’ Hero Talent trees are available for testing. Please keep in mind that this is a Beta environment:

  • There may be UI elements on the talent panel that are placeholder, including things like talent icons, text, or final UI art.
  • Some talents may not be functioning yet, or may be marked as not yet implemented (NYI).
  • Some new spell visuals and audio may still be a work in progress.
  • There are some talents that are not fully tuned yet. This is expected, and we will implement tuning adjustments throughout testing.

The combat design team has two big areas of focus at this time:

  • Finish work on changes to talents, especially wherever Hero Talents still need adjustments.
  • Fix bugs that are blocking testing of new talents.

Working from Feedback

Alpha feedback thus far has been of great benefit to us.

Now that we are entering Beta, our focus on Hero Talent trees is shifting away from reworks and design changes and towards tuning and refining. We want to thank you so much for all the forum posts, videos, and discussions all over the internet. Your feedback and impressions have been invaluable for bringing their identities to life and making them fit into what you love about the classes you play.

We are looking forward to hearing from more of you as you get a chance to try Hero Talents for yourself. We are specifically interested in feedback or impressions on these topics:

  • Hero Talents that you feel are “required” for your spec in a type of content, such as raiding or Mythic+, or that push you towards picking a specific tree. This could be due to damage profile, utility, defensives, or something else.
  • Hero Talent trees that you feel are either too strong or too weak in power level compared to other options.
  • Hero Talents whose functionality is confusing, unclear, or difficult to track during gameplay.
  • Hero Talent choice nodes that you feel could offer more meaningful choices.

Again, Thank You

Feedback throughout the Alpha test was highly impactful on our design of the game, and we look forward to refining every class with you in the Beta. Thank you!

The World of Warcraft Combat Design Team

Hello, would like to share my opinion what Frost DK need for dungeons, i really love this class and especially frost spec but i never seen any of dps specs in top rio, that’s make me sad because i love this class so much

Frost DK right now looking so good so far, but this spec need an alternative version of Epidemic that Unholy spec have, the aoe Runic Power spender, it’s so uncomfortable and barely profitable to press Frost Strike just to trigger Runic Empowerment.

My suggestion is to make Frostscythe cost Runic Power instead of 2 Runes and lower it’s cooldown or removing it at all, it should be very good for frost spec in dungeons

Hope my opinion is helpful :slight_smile:

So, some feedback from high m+ perspective unholy player (currently top5 unholy in world according to rio). Mostly not from theme or fantasy perspective, but rather from gameplay perspective.
First of all - kinda really good changes both Class tree and Spec tree, but still have some problems to solve.
Class tree:

  1. Vestigial Shell - freshly created lvl 80 dk have around 5 million hp after picking talents. And this talent gives to your ONLY 2 closest allies magic absorb in amount of ~250k hp, which is likely 5% hp from ours. Its feels to low numberwise. For example - mages having around 20% of hp Mass barrier for WHOLE party with cd 2 minutes. In current state - it feels so poor and underwhelming for a party safe cd and requires you to positional proreply. It just unreliable at this moment. Atleast - make talent so it gives this shield for all of your party members. Ideally solution - make it a new separate button to press like mages have mass barrier with 2 min cds, and own barrier with less cd. Would be same logic, own ams with less cd, mass ams with 2 min cds. This would give a dk good party utility without awkward requirement like AMZ, where u often just cant stack on it because dmg incoming requires u to stay spread out - for example, bird boss on Algethar Academy or last boss in Nokhud Offensive. If u make a new cool talent - please give it right treatment so it would be actually viable to choose.

  2. Control Undead - for what reasons a specialization of DK that masters in controlling undead minions, Unholy spec is only spec that just can’t pick this talent? Currently ifor Unholy when u press it - u lose your main pet, which is large amount of dmg and interactions for unholy. The main reason of concern is m+ affix Incorporeal - Frost and Blood dk can easily use Control Undead to actually mind control the affix, so have a way to deal with it completely. While for Unholy - u just lose so much dmg because of losing main pet. I know its kinda hard to solve cuz of tech issues. But for sure u can just made it, so MCed pet count as guardian and doesnt show up with pet panel etc, so atleast unholy can just CC it with this spell.

  3. Not a specific talent, but a whole problem of DK as a class compare to other classes. Current m+ affixes and dungeons has a lot of requirement interactions, like, having either of Disease/Poison/Curse/Bleed/Raging/Slow dispels or long CC (30 secs or 1 minutes etc), Aoe interrupts for some mobs/bosses/affixes. Also to mention having something like group defensive utility - Party Damage reductions, absorbs, target safe, CR, BLoodlust, Party dmg or defensife buffs.
    A lots of classes have access to a lot of this things, specially “meta” classes. For example - mage has Curse dispel, long CC or even mass long CC, 3 aoe interrupts, -20% for whole party (Mass Barrier) to ANY kind of dmg, and 5% intellect buff, and bloodlust.
    But when we look at DK as a class - what we could see?

    • Its the ONLY tank class that doesnt have a party buff - dmg/defensive wise all other tank classes have that - its not the main reason for Blood dk to not be a meta in m+, but its a lot of addition to other reasons.
    • Same for raid enviroment - DPS DK just doesn’t bring anything for a raid - same as 2 specs of Shaman - only dmg and very high survivability. So if tuning of DPS DK is low - you dont bring them. Also, if fight requires any sort of grip like Fyrakk was - Blood DK just do it ten times better with Gorefind Grasp. So, please - bring a dk some sort of raid buff/debuff that is important just like for other 11 classes and 1 spec (Enchancement Shamans). It feels terrible as a player perspective, like all people around got something and DK are the one, that just got nothing and just sitting there, watching for others. Same for m+ - in meta of stacking party buffs/debuffs, DK just doesnt bring that to a group. So please, do some sort of it, even if it would be some small additions on terms of power like a Hunters Mark now give 5% more dmg on pull until 80% hp. For example - make a buff giving some amount of Mastery for whole raid.
    • Its one of few classes that can’t interact with Afflicted (Death coiling them from current tuning for DD requires to do 3 casts (2 if crit) and completely ruin your rotation with all of the maintenaince buffs/debuffs that we have to track and keep, and specifically UNHOLY just can’t do Incorporeal affix - technically u still can do it, but at cost of nearly HALF of your dmg - that feels terrible and cringe and should be fixed in any possible way.

Spec tree:

  1. Improved Festering Strike and Runic Mastery - both this talents is a 2 point noders, and because of pathing leading to Apocalypses - there is no build where u skip either of it, leading to picking MORE points in gate 1 even when already have access to gate 2, just gatekeeping us from a wall of talents in gate 2. Please, just make it a 1 point nodders, for such a small effect they are doing, its just feels bad to spend 2 points there, and dont have free point in 2nd note to spend.

  2. Raise Dead - currently with s4 of DF, our pet dies quite a lot from Cleave Phys dmg, for example in Brackenhide Hollow from Bladestorm dmg, or in Nokhud Offensives from mini-bosses that cleaves around tank. And then u just press Raise Dead with a 30sec cd, leading to another similar death and then we just AFK without main pet. Pls, just remove a cd for Unholy on this spell, its makes no sense at all having it.

  3. Foul Infections - bugged or not, but currently give a 5% modifier to YOUR crit chance for diseases, instead actually of giving a +5% crit chance. For example - if u have a 20% crit chance overall, with this talent u will have 20%*1.05 = 21% сrit chance for diseases. So fix either tooltip for more correct wording or fix working this talent to actually gives +5% crit chance.

  4. Defile - GOD, there was a hundreds of posts of this, but please - FIX THE VISUAL EFFECT FOR PLAYERS. Make it atleast an option to completely turn it off if u cant fix it or etc. Right now - most of the based ground swirlies that hits players in dungeongs, leading to 1-shots and requires players to dodge them, are INVISIBLE UNDER DEFILE VISUAL EFFECT, and its even non consistent - some swirlies u can see in defile, some can’t. Its bad, awful, frustrating way to die. Requires an Unholy Dk to - knowledge wich swirlies are invisible, then - find a way to survive (relying to stay in tanks/other melee players or to pray for gods to dodge invisible stuff).

  5. Festering Scythe - feels actually a good talent (if we not already flowing in a hellton of wounds sources), but position on top of all other greath talents in a gate 2 feels like there are no place for it. Also its quite lackluster on ST. Best solution - delete Improved Festering Strike from the game and place Festering Scythe on top of it.

  6. Improved Death Coil - a situational good talent that gives us a way to cleave with Death Coil. But the problem is placement of it - in DF we often pick this if any m+ fight have a constant 2 targets - mostly bosses fight, like 1st/3rd in Nokhud Offensive or 2nd/3rd in Ruby Life Pulls etc. Currently we drop 1 point in morbidity to pick it up, but in TWW, with all of the talent changes, it feels like u dont really have a free point to spend it for this situation - mostly because now u need to spend 2/2 points into morbidity to pick Supertstrain and have very strong Doomed binding talent that requires you to pick up a Coil of Devastation for pathing. So please - make Death Coil cleave 2nd target baseline or delete Runic Mastery talent and place Improved Death Coil on its placement with 1 point to spend, or just swap positions of Coil of Devastation and Improved Death Coil. Both this talents for 1 points is kinda same on power for ST, but having a Death Coil cleave on 2nd target is important - specifically for maintaning Death Rot Debuff and for dmg wise too.

  7. Decomposition - currently feels poor and underwhelming rng talent, that doesn’t scale on AOE cuz have rppm system, and as a talent for cool/fun way to interact with diseases - well, its no interactions in all. Just give a Virulent Plague actual effect on tick - something, that both another DK dots have baseline (Frost Fever have chance for RP gain, Blood Plague gives leech). Yeah, we have so called “Virulent Eruption”, but in reality - on death effect doesnt do much in wow history, and this one particulary - does around of “awesome” 0.2% overall in m+ or even less - at this point just delete it.

  8. Raise Dead - currently with s4 of DF, our pet dies quite a lot from Cleave Phys dmg, for example in Brackenhide Hollow from Bladestorm dmg, or in Nokhud Offensives from mini-bosses that cleaves around tank. And then u just press Raise Dead with a 30sec cd, leading to another similar death and then we just AFK without main pet. Pls, just remove a cd for Unholy on this spell, its makes no sense at all having it.

And now, finally - hero trees. Will be giving feedback only for San’layn Unholy, because its design and tuning is way better for m+ compare to Riders:

  1. Vampiric Strike - 10% chance for getting a proc is too low number. Currently on beta, after our Gift of Sanlayn (which is tied to DT) window is end, most of the time we end up with 0 proc before next Gift window is coming - actually, it feels kinda exciting to get that single proc, but also feels frustrated to actually not getting a 1 before next Gift. Can be fixed for example like a bit more chance of proc outside of Gift with a bit less dmg or similar.
  2. Infliction of Sorrow - with Superstrain talented - which is always picked on disease build, Unholy have all 3 DK dots available - own Virulent Plague, bloods Blood Plague and frosts Frost Fever. This talent doesnt interact with Frost Fever at all, leading to it just expired while time passed - and we just ignore this, continiously spamming Vampiric strike under Gift window. Please, make Frost Fever interact same way for this talent as other 2 dots, with some sort of dmg nerf for compensate giving 3rd hit for this ability from Frost Fever.
  3. Blood Beast with Pact of the Sanlayn - talent in a choice node below - just didnt work at all in Single target and doesnt contribute dmg at right numbers according to tooltip. All it does is just melee and sometimes do a Blood cleave - but not an Blood Eruption in ST. Then in Aoe, its accordingly doing way less dmg then tooltip says - so fix tooltip or make a talent work like intended.
  4. Visceral Regeneration and Gift of the Sanlayn - feels kinda good and bad at the same time. It was stated goal for all changes incoming to reduce amount of runes and rp that Unholy spec are flowing at in DF, but this talents combination result in absurd amount of runes given, so our gameplay inside of Gift of the Sanlayn window (= DT window) are… just degenerate spamming of Vampiric strike, ignoring WHOLE TOOLKIT of a spec, confusing with a choice - do we press more vampiric strike to do dmg, or do we press DC/Epi to increase the duration of DT leading to more vampiric strikes? Current answer is - well, just ignores everything and spam Vampiric strike until you out of runes (which is happen not often due to Visceral Regeneration). Its feels awkward in terms of design wise and etc, and MUST have reconsidering/tuning something to change this. For example, maybe pressing vampiric strike gives some stacks that increase dmg of next DC/Epi so encourage us to actually weaving rathen then to endlessly spam 1 button?
    Well, atleast tuning wise this design is just absurdly high amount of dmg.
5 Likes

Deathknight Feedback

  • Rider of the apocalypse

GREAT hero talents, really love the mounted combat, visually great, thematically amazing. possible the most fun ive had on Deathknight since its interaction in WOTLK.
a few outliers to the talent tree i would like to address however…
" on a paler horse " is only useable OUTSIDE. as an avid PvP player this choice node would become useless in arena. i would like to put forward a suggestion to make this useable in Arena
" Nazgrims Conquest" is pointless in Arena, its effect only works AFTER you have killed someone , generally this would have NO impact in solo PvP scenarios and would be better as a Proc chance during combat

  • DeathBringer

its ok, not amazing visually, pretty much a neutral choice, nothing outstanding i feel needs changing the only thing i feel could do with tweaking is the main ability itself
having it melee range feels pretty poor in an environment with most melee in comparison for an ability that builds stacks
i would suggest putting a slight range to it maybe 10- 20yards again as a PvP player using this as a frost dk feels easy to shut down. a problem that all frost DK’s already suffer with

  • San’layn

this is possible the less popular choice of the 3 hero talents, the 10% chance to proc is VERY low. in a pvp scenario i rarely see the proc
i think out the three hero talents options, i would possible never choose this due to its lack of Visuals and impact
“vampiric Aura” 3% leech is very low too, i was expecting at least 10% … it doesnt feel very Vampire like
its common for me to never see a proc during combat… feels terrible

id recommend maybe a character visual for the blood queen buff, maybe Bat wings, or blood red particles. i know its a lot to ask for , but i dont feel very Vampire esk…

1 Like

Hello and thank you for all the changes to the Death Knight class! The below will be presented from the perspective of a Blood DK tank.

1. Class talents:
Generally a great change and enticing additions, notably the talents that further DK fantasy as the anti-caster. Up until gate 3 all the nodes offer great pathing and variance of picks to fulfil the needs of the content we do.

The Good:

  • Actally, there’s a lot of it. Most of it, actually.
  • New capstones are amazing, and depending on tuning may be just what the DK needs to be more of a team player.
  • The better pathing and removal of a significant portion of throughput talents makes it possible to pick such fun and useful talents as Wraith Walk.
  • Soul Reaper not being a capstone allows DKs to always have an execute ability (one that sadly has no synergies with Blood tree, unlike Unholy).
  • Osmosis - extra healing if we just used AMS while being low on HP to prevent death from another spell directed at us.
  • Null Magic - potentially risky if there are magic abilities that we don’t want to drop early (such as ones that explode upon removal), but otherwise simply over the top amazing.
  • Vestigial Shell needs some tuning as the absorb is negligible and activation range is quite short
  • Unyielding Will self-dispel on command!

The Bad:

  • I still don’t understand why Anti-Magic Zone has a limit on the amount of damage it can absorb when Discipline Priest’s does not (and reduces all damage, not just spell).
  • Runic Protection feels like an attempt of adding a PvP talent with minor PvE benefit in an awkward central location.
  • Death’s Reach gated behind Enfeeble/Sacrificial Pact node. Not sure why such a great talent for solo content would be locked behind a node that doesn’t offer as much in that environment.
  • Sacrificial Pact should do more damage the longer duration it has remaining duration, so we don’t lose ghoul’s damage when we suddenly need the healing, and it should caue the ghould to automatically explode upon expiration, in addition to active on-demand explosion.

The Ugly:

  • For some unknown reason, March of Darkness is tied to Improved Death Strike?

I would reorder the three talents below Death Strike into following:
Death Strike > Veteran of the Third War (2nd line) > Improved Death Strike (3rd line) > March of Darkness (4th line).

  • There are still some bad apples, such as the trap talent of Death Pact, or Enfeeble that would be more useful if the damage deal debuff had 100% uptime, but they are few and far between.

Death Pact rework ideas:

  • Shadow of Death/Forgeborne Reveries Revisited (I always loved that animation): Upon death, your armor continues to fight, allowing you to fight for an additional 10 sec. During this time, your damage and healing done is reduced by 10% per second and you cannot receive healing.
  • Active Discount Purgatory: Activating the ability causes the next fatal strike dealt to you within 5 seconds to apply a healing absorb that must be healed through within 3 seconds or you die.

2. Blood spec talents:
Although a great improvement over the DF’s “there is only one path to spec” version of the tree, and actually offering some variance, the tree is still riddled with sub-optimal or outright dead talents, and some seem to lack the expected synergies.

The Good:

  • Ossified Vitriol is a great talent that makes Marrowrend no longer feel like a chore to press.
  • Gorefiend’s Grasp is now finally an option to pick, which is a great boon in Dungeons.
  • Bonestorm is now usable!
  • New Blooddrinker and Consumption are greatly improved and worth taking. It might require some tuning as their own damage feels underwhelming for what appears to be a nigh-capstone. I’d like to see Consumption healing be like Death Strike’s (just maybe halved), since it’s a longish 30 sec CD. That, or up it’s damage and healing return percentage, as it’s healing doesn’t feel impactful even against 10+ targets.

The Bad:

  • Mostly the fact that there’s still so many mandatory or otherwise powerful talents that need to be picked to make sure we perform at the top of our capacity.
  • Perseverance of the Ebon Blade aspires to be something, but is less than a discount version of Sanguine Ground. Not only it’s bonus doesn’t last for the whole duration of the Crimson Scourge’d DnD, the bonus it gives is a miniscule copy of its big brother in gate 3. Speaking of gates, it blocks the path to Rapid Decomposition and Bloodworms, along with Relish in Blood, which is not bad, just too weak to be worth the point spent.
  • Mark of Blood stood the test of time of being a dead talent since times immemorial.

It’d like to see it become a passive that is applied by Death Strike, but even then it’s very weak given how much reliant we are on the insane Death Strike heals.

The Ugly:

  • All the talents in the leftmost column are unlikely to ever be picked, primarily due to many more useful or mandatory options being available elsewhere.
  • New Bonestorm doesn’t seem to activate Insatiable Blade. Probably intentional, but not clear enough based on talent descriptions.
  • I might be alone in this, but I find Tombstone very awkward. It pretends to be a defensive cooldown, but in fact acts as an AoE offensive ability and DRW cooldown reducer through Shattering Bone and Insatiable Blade.

3. San’layn (Blood):
While looks like it was designed mostly with Blood in mind, and thematically it is phenomenal and a lot of talents there are amazing, I find that the execution of the main feature causing some issues:

The Good:

  • Newly Turned/Vampiric Speed: The former feels more like a PvP (RBG), but as such it’s really good when used, whereas the latter is a great group utility (especially for Dungeons).
  • Vampiric Aura: Another welcome group utility, this time helping with survivability.
  • The Blood is Life: I love the big guy that pops up to smash my enemies, and then pops out with extra damage (with Pact of the San’layn)
  • Incite Terror: While not a fan of stacking buffs/debuffs, it’s still nice addition to boss fights, with extra benefit to the keystone ability.

The Bad:

  • Infliction of Sorrow: Not as bad as for Unholy (which is atrocious, I am sorry, but it is), but I had a situation where I spent my second Blood Boil charge, hit up Consumption, and then Vampiric Strike, resulting in the dots disappearing and Consumption buff doing nothing. This talent needs a rework to not remove diseases… maybe similar to Destruction Warlock’s Internal Combustion - Vampiric Strike consumes up to 5 seconds of the disease’s damage over time effect on target, instantly dealing that much damage, or twice as much damage during Gift of the San’layn (with or without consuming 5 seconds).

The Ugly:

  • Blood-Soaked Ground: More buffs associated with Death and Decay, not a fan. If Cleaving Strikes got the Prot Paladin Consecration treatment (retaining all DnD bonuses and not just being able to cleave), this would not be as ugly. It’s still really good, but tied to an unpleasant mechanic.
  • Essence of the Blood Queen and most related talents: Being tied to Vampiric Blood, it creates a degenerate playstyle where you want to maintain a 100% uptime on the buff through Red Thirst CD reduction to recast VB before Essence drops, leading to insane amount of free Haste. Degenerate, because we don’t use a defensive CD defensively. Also, 7 stacks means 7 Vampiric Strike casts, ones that you often want to just push immediately, which could lead to RP overflow. Failing to maintain 100% uptime also results in having to rebuild all 7 stacks (which is a lot in my opinion, because that’s a minimum of 7 GCDs worth of time and effort spamming one ability instead of playing rotationally as proper). I find any mechanics that require you to remain constantly in combat as degenerate gameplay (thinking of certain Cataclysmic and Anvil trinkets from retail now) that punishes you severely if you either choose or are forced to take a break.

Possible solution would just need to change Essence of the Blood Queen to allow refreshing or extending its duration. Perhaps causing Death Strike and Death Coil to add 3 seconds to the duration. I also think 1.5% haste is too generous.

  • Vampiric Strike: This is minor, and might get changed, but I don’t like that Vampiric Strike has same icon as Heart Strike. I know it glows when it procs, but it still confuses me slightly.

Hello, these are my points after a few days of testing DK at max level, doing mostly Dungeons and trying out different builds. Unholy main, occasionally blood & frost. In the live game I mostly do M+ and HC & Mythic raiding.


CLASS TREE TALENTS

Generally the tree is in a much better state than before, giving us way more available options, we can even have a build without Mind Freeze and freeing up other utility, very useful for raid bosses where there’s nothing to interrupt. With that in mind here are some points to consider:

  • Vestigial Shell: For a capstone talent this doesn’t offer that much value. Consider either buffing the % of protection it offers, or expanding to all 5 group members. If you don’t do something like that, it will end up on the grey pile for the whole expansion.
  • Osmosis: Really low impact, will likely never be picked. Consider either highly buffing it, making it useful for pvp players, or straight up changing the talent.
  • Control Undead: Specifically for Unholy, please don’t make it lose our pet. We literally can’t use this talent in no context whatsoever. No pet, no damage. It is very odd that the other 2 specs can bring this unique utility, and us Unholy who thematically match this talent even better, can’t.
  • Enfeeble & Sacrificial Pact: Very strange nod, Sacrificial Pact will never see the light of day for UH.
  • Subduing Grasp: This just feels very low value and mostly a choice that we have to take in order to get to Abomination Limb. Please consider alternative, or buffing it.
  • Anti Magic Shell: Please upgrade the visual to something suitable for this present era of the game. I swear it’s the same visual since WoTLK.

UNHOLY TREE

Now firstly let me preface this with the fact that myself and many other DKs (just go read all the comments on the DK forum) really don’t like wound system as whole. It feels like bad combo points, it’s clunky and dated. The comments I make here are more so me being defeated and accepting the fact that UH will have one more expansion with this system in place, and trying my best to optimise it. Finally, even though an effort has been made to improve the whole D&D/Defile cleave, we still don’t like it. Nobody likes it. You removed Rune Of Power for mages for the same reason. Why on earth is this still a thing for DKs? In this version of the game where we can’t stand still for a second and tanks have kyte like maniacs to play optimally, any spell that requires you to stand still on your special corner is simply wrong and shouldn’t exist. It’s such a leftover from a bygone era.

Right onto the main meat, has the tree improved? Yes. Is it good? Not really. Still very many awkward connections, the overall structure is off (compare to very well made talent trees like ret paladin) and even though it appears we’ve got more build options, I can see how we will likely be stuck with particular options again, especially looking at our tier set power which favour minions build over anything else.

On a positive note, the new Sudden Doom feels much better, it generally became a good button to press as oppose to just being some sort free cast that was ok to have. Really adds to the flow of the rotation, so well done here. The new Festermight is also much easier to upkeep and no longer feels like it needs to be tracked in order to remain optimal, another win.

Let’s start with the simpler problems:

  • Pestilence: It’s still the same terrible talent, that will never be picked in any build. Just replace it with something else already. You could buff it to a much higher %, but then that would make us even more reliant on Defile/D&D which we don’t like as community.

  • Defile: For all that is unholy… Can you please… PLEASE! change the visual of this spell? It hides everything, and since you’ve updated that some enemy spells appear on top, it’s inconsistent as some spells still appear underneath it. Just update the damn thing… And make sure that other players can see it too, so monks stop putting ring of Peace on it and tanks don’t just escape.

  • Infected Claws to Death Rot Pathing: This is just awkward. There’s no real reason to pick the former in single target builds yet we end up getting it because the latter is useful. Please consider changing the layout around this point.

  • Decomposition & Festermight: Consider changing the location of those two talents around. The former is way more likely to be chosen in a disease build, whilst the latter isn’t. Both talents again face the usual 2 points issue. 1 point isn’t worth the pick, yet 2 make it really powerful. Consider making them single point talents, and adapt the accordingly.

  • Army of The Dead & Raise Abomination: This either needs to become a choice nod, or if we can get both at the same time so the latter doesn’t replace the former. It’s thematically awesome though I can see the power being very high so buff/nerf accordingly.

  • Ruptured Viscera: Bin it. Useless talent that will never see the light of play. Tried on the dummies it does so little damage even with army on. gave about 2 wounds per target. Also very disappointing seeing those magus exploding in range and hitting nothing.

  • Commander Of the Dead: I get the intention of having to line up all your CDs well to benefit from this, but when accidents do happen, this feels so bad. Reconsider how this talent works.

Now for the complicated problems:

  • Wounds, Festering Strike & Scythe, Vile Contagion: I can see what the devs are going for but it’s still not up to standard. Firstly FS is still a lame button to press, FSc feels like it should be amazing but ends up disappointing. First major issue is that the 20 stack counter doesn’t carry on the background if the ability is available but hasn’t been pressed yet. Runes are likely going to be on CD, but RP will be up and we’ll likely have sudden doom. Which means we’re popping wounds with DC/Epi whilst waiting for our runes to come back up and are actually wasting precious stacks towards the next FSc. There’s a very simple solution to this. Make FSc free to cast or make sure the counter carries on in the background. Now for the elephant in the room, Vile Contagion (VC)…
    There needs to be some kind of interplay between all those abilities here. Yes the new 45s CD feels better, but it still doesn’t feel good. Consider making FS reduce VC’s CD every time, and FSC reduces it even more. This will create a feedback loop where all abilities feed into each other and can actually make the wound system more tolerable.

If any of my feedback is to be considered please let it be this last point above, it could make wounds build so much more enjoyable, instead of playing disease which is more of dot maintenance every 10odd seconds. And to close this section off, I really do hope that the current animation for FSc is a placeholder… It looks the same as FS which is terrible to begin with, so lord I hope you make something awesome like frostscythe or Reaper’s Mark.


HERO TALENTS

Rider Of The Apocalypse
A distracting gimmick at best. There are 2 good talents in this tree and those are Death Charge and Mawswarn Menace, although unsure of the latter turning blight into a 30s cd, feels clunky. The former is very powerful and it’s going to be amazing in raids, we might actually be picked to do tactics for once haha. To everyone who says that the mounted combat looks good, I’m sorry but you have low standards of the game and animation as a whole. We’re constantly clipping the horse and generally looks clunky and real odd. This talent in general is so specifically niche. Literally would only use it on densely populated areas of mobs. The 4 knights end up clipping each other all the time and it’s basically full of passives that aren’t even that interesting. Of the 3 hero specs this is the one I was looking forwards to the most and is ultimately the most disappointing one. If it’s down to me I’d say just completely reimagin it into something else, like Lich or Necromancer. Imagine how thematic that could be, Frost dks get a frost lich and more undead dragons and wyrms, UH get a plague/shadow lich and more powerful minions.

San’layn
This one just felt a bit odd and I got to say I would like to test it further before commenting. Just kind of feels like nothing much happens besides haste and leech buffs. Like you can feel loads of stuff happening stats and buff wise, and how it matches the rotations, but it’s almost too unobtrusive to the point of being unnoticeable unless you squint or realise your scourge strike is now red.

Deathbringer
Tested this one as frost, and I got to say I liked it the most. It’s a simple spec which gives us a nice button to press every 30s that is powerful both in ST and cleave, it has it’s own little mini game which basically just needs you to to your rotation well and boom, off it goes. Animation looks awesome too. The only minor issues that I find with it is at it’s between tank and dps specs, it clearly has some talents that are catered to some specs directly.


FROST & BLOOD

Just a small entry here as I’ve done little testing here. Blood feels better with the whole extra bone shields popping in the start of pulls, generally harder to mess that one up. Frost, actually I’m generally happier, it didn’t get resource starved, the new frostcythe feels much better, so far feels nice. Will do more testing though. Haven’t done BoS yet.

OVERALL

Things are better, but not good enough yet. You guys need to do so much more iteration on DK. If this was released tomorrow, I would carry on as Deathbringer Frost main and potentially ditch UH. What drove my disappointment further though was comparing my experience with Ret paladin. OMG both specs feel sooo good. Templar just smashes ridiculous crits think I got a 6m one (maybe that needs tuning) and Herald of the Sun just burned everyone in aoe. Both specs made me go “oh wow that feels great” when DK just made me go “hmmm that’s ok”

First essay done, can’t wait to test further in raids and higher keys.

3 Likes

Wanted to add my 5 cents when it comes to Blood DK, from the limited time I have had playing in beta. It is just rough and early thoughts so far.

I do want to add early on, that it is difficult to determine the performance, self-sustain and utility in Heroic Dungeons environment only. Meaning there is very little concern regarding incoming damage and it becomes difficult testing the mettle of a tank properly. I think it will be far easier to determine the perfomance of a tank in a Mythic or Mythic+ environment. More feedback will very likely come, once I am able to sink my teeth into more challenging content.

So my thoughts will mainly be regarding the feel and class fantasy of the new talents and hero talents. As well as some early feedback and concerns.

Overall Talents for Blood DK

I want to start by saying that it looks fantastic, it feels fantastic and increasing the max cap on bone shield was a good move. I was overjoyed seeing Consumption getting some love again and it feels satisfying using it. I am also happy seeing a push towards being able to mitigate Magic Damage more effeciently this time around and is a welcomed change.

I would like to add that the talent Vestigial Shell feels a bit, off. When I use it, it applies to group members randomly, in the sense of only 1 person gets it or 2 people gets it as intended. Meaning it is a coin flip, if 1 person gets it or 2 people gets it.

Most of the time, party members have to be practically hugging me in order to recieve it properly.

San’layn Hero Talents
From a first inital glance, I have to say it looked a bit lackluster. For me it felt as “Blood DK, but you do it better”.

After spending time playing it, this first inital view on San’layn changed drastically.
San’layn offers interesting choices that has given me more “group” utilities and a power boost to self-sustain and damage output.

There is a few things I would like to add when it comes to these Hero Talents:

Vampiric Strike: Getting procs to gain Vampiric Strike charges, mainly comes from Death Strikes. Death Strike is your “bread and butter” tool when it comes to mitigate incoming damage or compensate for incoming bursts of damage. The main goal is to preferably “time” your death strikes, to make sure you get the full value out of the heal, to gain big chunks of blood shield.

Vampiric Strike comes across to me, that it is encouraged to use Death Strike as often as possible (regardless of current health) and effectively put yourself in danger in the process. What I mean is, using Death Strike as a means of more DPS, rather than a tool to be used to stay alive.

My wish would be to slightly increase the proc rate for Blood DKs to activate Vampiric Strike, due to the nature and importance of Death Strike usage. As you want to use it to stay alive, rather than for fishing for procs.

I do want to add that this can turn around, if I was able to test it properly in Mythic or Mythic+ environment, where Death Strike usage becomes far more frequent, compared to Heroic Dungeons.

So my feedback regarding Vampiric Strike, leads into a second problem: Blood Beast

Due to Blood Beast coming from Vampiric Strike, I see it activate perhaps once per dungeon or none at all for an entire run. But when Blood Beast do activate and come out to maul my enemies, it is a very satisfying thing to witness and flows in well with the San’ layn DK fantasy. I do not know the proc chance to summon the Blood Beast, but I would put forward feedback for a slight increase in chance to proc Blood Beast.

Deathbringer Hero Talents
As it stands as of right now (in current beta build), there is not a single doubt in my mind, that this will be the go-to hero talent spec for Blood DKs in M+, in terms of pushing out more DPS.

When combining hero talents such as Blood Fever and Wither Away, with a final addition of Rapid Decomposition from the Blood DK spec tree: you turn Blood Plague into turbo overdrive.

I was able to match (and even overtake) multiple DPS specs in terms of damage, on large pulls. The damage output from Blood Plague is staggering and is of course very satisfying gameplay. It does raise concerns for me homever that this will push people into choosing Deathbringer as the one true hero talent for M+ content, while disregarding San’layn.

A second part regarding Deathbringer, comes with Exterminate.
Exterminate damage output is simply put, a tactical nuke.
It is dominating my overall damage and is without a doubt a joy to witness the scythes appear and reap my enemies. Main issue I have with it, is that it is doing absurd amounts of damage for a tank specifically.

Deathbringer overall, overshadows San’layn by large margines when it comes to damage output and it concerns me if this will encourage players to disregard San’layn in higher difficulty content.

I think my only feedback regarding Deathbringer hero talents is to slightly adjust Exterminate damage output and perhaps tune down either Blood Fever or Wither Away by a small amount.

Also I love that Deathbringer brings a new visual for blood boil! I would love to see it change the visual for Death and Decay as well, to really bring home Deathbringer as “using the powers of the Maw”.

Overall thoughts
I honestly have to say that Blood DK looks better than ever, it feels fun to play, it feels comfortable and the new talents feels impactful.

San’layn and Deathbringer both feels great in terms of theme and class fantasy, the hero talents gives interesting and competitive choices. It feels like there will be room and possibility to make interesting builds with the new options.

Overall, fantastic work for the Blood DK :slight_smile:

1 Like

With the testing being done on beta there are a common theme we from the Dk player base share, and that’s the fact we are spending way to many talent points on the some passives that simply gets weaker after 1 talent point has been spent on them.

Our first talent row for Blood/Frost/Unholy suffers from the talent point tax. What this causes is that, if you want to gain access to all the passives in the Middle part of the talent tree for each of the DK specs, you have to spend 1 extra talent point on something that really doesn’t add any thing towards our talent choices.

With all the testing i have done with UH DK i’d like to suggest some talent relocating.

For the relocating of some of the passives, Unholy Pact should be located were Festering Scythe is located, as for Festering Scythe, this one would make more sense being located before you talent in to Bursting Soars, thus i think locating Bursting Soars were Pestilence used to be located would make more sense with then Scythe being the talent you take before Soars.

Passives like Pestilence/Ruptured Viscera needs to [A] be baked in to Defile/Minions or [B] be removed, and new passives should be added in to spice up some of the talent options.

I think this is a good opportunity to add new passives with more Minion/pet interaction with some of our passives in the talent tree.

We used to have access to Raise Sludge Belcher back in Legion which replaced our Ghoul for an Abomination pet, from a pvp perspective having a physical Death Grip would be really good, and i think having a slightly stronger pet also helps giving the UH DK some agency in terms of becoming better at being a master of Diseases/Undeads, we got an update to Rune of the Apocalypse, how about if we made it so when Raise Sludge Belcher is talented, instead of applying 1 stack of Rune of the Apocalypse, when your pet uses it’s skills it applies 2 stacks instead, this would also give some purpose to Rune of the Apocalypse helping us have some variety to our Rune Weapon Enchant based on how we build our talent tree.

For All Will Serve, this passive struggles to be relevant as it hardly interact with the rest of our talent tree, i think with all the new HD models for Nerubians it would be an amazing opportunity to add a passive that lets us upgrade the 1 Skulker we Raise to now Raise up 2 Nerubians instead, this gives UH DK more monster Undead units, another thing that could be done then is to make them interact with Infected Claw giving you a higher chance to generate Wounds out side of your Festering Strikes, that in my opinion will help creating a better purpose to All Will Serve instead of it going yet another Expansion not being used.

As for last talent row we have way to many 2 talent point passives, this has gotten to a point were as a UH DK player it feels like our time are getting wasted on having to spend points on something that simply is not interesting, this are just passives with a tuning knob attached to it, what we need are more interesting things in the last row apart from army/abom/gargoyle/Doomed Bidding that do create some form of interaction with our talent build/rotation.

As for Unholy Assault, it has gotten to a point were i feel this should just return back to just being Unholy Frenzy with a slightly upgraded way to apply Festering Wounds, i feel like this CD should do just what Vile Contagion does right now spreading Wounds on all enemy targets in range of the CD when it’s been used. I think it would be more interesting if Vile Contagion had been changed to cause our Diseases to Multi Strike chaining off the dot damage being done to the enemy instead of it being a gimmick were you have to at least have 4+ wounds to only then be able to spread it.

As for Army of the Dead and Raise Abomination, if this CD’s are going to be talents you have to spend 2 talent points in to, then this 2 CD’s need to be separate CD’s, i think that would be the better choice as losing the ability to Raise an Army of Undeads for the sake of Raising 1 Abomination seems a bit backward thematic wise when UH DK’s are supposed to get better at Raising legions of expendable Undeads in the first place.

I’d like to talk about is Commander of the Dead, and how frustrating this passive is. This passive just feels so bad to run when you have talented in to Doomed Bidding, it also causes situations were if you accidentally press Dark Transformation before one of your other CD’s it screw your overall dps enormously, your more or less screwed up for the rest of the boss fight/pvp encounter as a result. This passive should be removed, i’d rather see the Gargoyle located here or a new passive added that makes it less frustrating or at worst less punishing to play with. Commander of the Dead does not offer any thing interesting more than the Passive damage it gives when your Minions are buffed.

How about we have a new passive that takes what is an already cool passive Doomed Bidding and have it so that you have a chance instead of Raising a Magus of the Dead, it Raise up a Lich which could have our recent Amirdrassil 4 piece set bonus be added to it, buffing our damage. Now this is not a super interesting thing but i like this better than having to play my rotation like a piano were one wrong button press makes a bad note.

Also add Necrotic Plague back pls it could be an amazing addition as a capstone talent for UH when focusing on a Disease orientated talent build.

11 Likes

I tried to do some dungeons and as play Unholy DK. Playing without addons with the amount of buffs / stacks that are necessary to track, to use abilities properly + on top of it there is a lot of movement and “not standing in fire” mechanics, makes unholy not fun to play at all. I think Unholy could use some visual clarity update (Defile) and either remove, merge or simply streamline some abilities that require different stacking mechanics and reduce button bloat.

Festering scythe - is really cool idea, but implementation of how it works in current rotation is clunky. I think its really neat that both frost (Frostscythe) and unholy have this new “scythe” abilities. But the way Frostscythe works is much better. You use it as soon as possible for big damage then you reduce CD by consuming Killing Machine procs. Festering Scythe you go through rotation of possibly 10+ buttons to get just more Festering Wounds? I think this ability would work much better as AOE opener. 30 sec CD, like Frostscythe, that just applies wounds and streamlines AOE rotation makes the spec a lot more fun. Consuming Sudden death reduces CD by 1 sec? Probably too stronk :smiley:

Army of the Dead / Raise Abomination - I am sure I am not the first one to mention this - this should absolutely be a choice node. In tier 2 talents, there is 21 talent choices, 2 of them are 2 pointers. In order to unlock all 3 wings (left, center and right) in this tier, you are FORCED to spend 9 talent points in tier 1. We already have to spent extra points to unlock stuff before tier 3, so spending 1 talent to unlock Army and then another to replace it with Abomination feels bad. Left and Right wings are simple, spend 4 points and get 3 modifiers. Even if you pick Abom to get Unholy Assault spending 1 less talent point, you cant unlock all 3 capstones in Spec tree, so I dont see the need for this.

Improved Death Coil - I dont think anyone has ever spend both talent points in this for extra 15% death coil damage. Remove damage boost, make Death Coil cleave and make it 1 pointer.

Apocalypse / Ruptured Viscera - I am not sure if its intended, but Ghouls summoned by Apocalypse start acting, moving and attacking maybe 3-4 seconds after casting. Making spell description, which states it summons them for 20 seconds kinda false. Personally I was never fan of exploding zombies after expiration. Currently weak and dead talent, without any cool visual.

Vile Contagion / Unholy Blight - I dont really have problem with any of these abilities. Let me cook on this one :smiley: For the argument of reducing button and talent bloat (In tier 2 talents, there is 21 talent choices, 2 of them are 2 pointers), could these 2 be merged? 6 second aura, that applies virulent plague and extra disease that stacks up 4 times and with each stack of disease also applies 1 festering wound?

Rider of the Apocalypse - visually nice, low impact on the gameplay - overall really what i hoped for.

Sanlayn - in order to maximize, it breaks your rotation. Another negative - more buffs to track :smiley: My cook - nerf the haste buff of Essence of the Blood queen and make it flat %, make Vampiric Strike a simple damage buff, or make it guarantee sudden death

TLDR - Generally Unholy DK is borderline unplayable without use of addons, buff and stacks tracking is crazy. Visual update required for Defile.

4 Likes

Im liking some of th e Unholy changes but thats nowhere near enough. Some of the core spec issues are ignored once again. Issues since Legion. Let me mention some of them:

  • Festering wounds - i dont think there is a single UH player that likes that mechanic. There was a reason why old rogue combo point system got removed and changed to what it is now. Im not sure why it got readded as festering wounds.

  • Cooldown bloat - Unholy have way too many buttons to press. Way too many cooldowns to track. There is no way you can play the spec properly without the need of weak auras that track your buffs/CDs. This issue also makes the spec extremely overwhelming for a new player.

Some talents should be reworked and turned into a passive. Examples:

  • Unholy Blight - Optimal way to use that spell is before Dark Transformation, why dont you turn UB into a passive that activates when you press DT?

  • Raise Abomination - cool spell, loved using it before it was removed. Sadly thats one more COOLDOWN to track and plan when to use… I would love to see this turned into a passive that summons the abomination when you use Army of the Dead. (or Let us pick from Army or Abomination?)

Death and Decay is also another extremely outdated mechanic that no longer works with the current version of the game. Its extremely frustrating when you set up everything and the tank decide to move… Just turn DaD into an aura around you?

And while we are on DaD topic, take a look at Defile’s spell animation. Its STILL covering enemy spell effects on the ground which leads to stupid deaths because you are unable to see whats under defile.

2 Likes

Hello, are you my long lost twin brother?

:metal:

To be honest those issues are so glaringly obvious, any even mildly serious players spots these. Just thought it was funny how similar our wordings are. I like your idea about UB being attached to DT. Definitely would help with flow.

2 Likes

Currently, the damage from the Festering Scythe and Festering Wounds is so low, and so frustrating to stake and then burst, that making the Festring Scythe (strike) passively hit like a warrior’s Cleav on all targets in front of us will not change our position in the table in any way.
In a single target situation, this percentage for the improved Festering Strike is worthless. It just absorbs our attention unnecessarily.

Creating the strongest build for festering wound will not improve its situation compared to the alternative disease build. In every scenario, diseases are better, stronger and more pleasant to use.
What’s the point of choosing a game for festering wound?
Is the developer able to answer this question?
For it to be better than Diseases and Epidemic it would first have to do more damage than Diseases and Epidemic for me to actually want to click it, and then be more pleasant to use in many scenarios.

I also don’t understand why I have difficulty accessing the build with diseases and I am forced to choose Vile Contagion, Pestilence or Infected Claw to get lower to Superstrain.

We currently have a lot of garbage skills, and these are:

- Improved Festering Strike (should be baseline)
even with this talent, Festering Strike and Festering Wound do not fundamentally change our game or table layout in M+ or in raids. It does negligible dmg.

- Runic Mastery
very weak. Maybe if it increased our Masters like a set bonus and cost 1 talent point, it would be of some use in the new expansion.

- Festering Scythe
this should be the baseline for Festering Strike so that there are no problems with applying wounds to multiple targets when we really need it and not at random moments, e.g. outside of combat.

- Vile Contagion
another talent that will likely never be selected until it is actually removed from the talent tree.
Only a strong buff beyond the balance of our festering wounds can give hope for this talent.
However, in law it will be very weak in every scenario - as it has been so far. Another garbage talent on your skill bar.

- Death Rot
this makes absolutely no sense and makes even more sense to use Epidemic instead of Death Coil for even 2-3 targets during a fight just to save stacks on those targets.
Any mistake or interruption in combat causes your game to start over again and you are penalized -10% of shadow damage.

- Ruptured Viscera
maybe if it ran as fast as The Blood is Lifie (blood beast) in the San’layn tree, MAYBE then it could make sense. However, it currently deals very little damage and often misses targets, which is why it has been a junk talent since it was introduced.

- Improved Death Coil
something that seems to be a sure thing to work as a baseline (it hits 3 targets in total), and in the improved version, after selecting this talent, your Death Coil attacks 2 additional targets and when there are no enemies nearby, it is not split, but hits 3 times one target.
This, in turn, would improve the throughput and appeal of talent like Coil of Devastation and Rotten Touch

- Unholy Aura
this should act as a passive buff with no range requirement and cost only one talent point - because it is a very boring talent.

-Pestilence
Absolutely unnecessary and unnecessary talent tree filler.
Maybe if it always applied wounds to all targets it would make sense.
Paradoxically, if it had a 100% multi-target wound application rate, it would go some way to solving the multi-target wound application problem, making the Festering Scythe talent even more useless.

However, it is still a thankless and annoying way to play the game because it forces us to play in a place where everyone else won’t because we are all forced by the game to be constantly mobile during combat due to damage and area effects that negatively affect us . This almost always happens in M+ (dungeons) and PVP.

-Cleaving Strikes
It just doesn’t work in dungeons and PVP. Even an extended buff does not solve the problem.
Scoruge Strike should always hit up to 8 targets near 12y, and Festering Strike should hit everything we see in front of us.
We don’t need anything else for this - for playing with festering wound. You’re forcing it on us, so do it at least to make it tasty and pleasant, like pizza.

OTHER MY FEEDBACk

That’s why we’ve added even more things to track:

  • Wounds
  • Festermight
  • Gift of the Sanlayn
  • Incite Terror
  • Death Rot
  • Festering Scythe
  • Icy Talons
  • Plaguebringer
  • Diseases (+Infliction of Sorrow)
  • Unholy Ground
  • DnD/Defile
  • Rotten Touch

UPDATE - also:

  • Whitemane’s Famine
  • Trolbane’s Icy Fury
  • Cleaving Strikes
  • Vampiric Strike

Thank you for achieving your goals. Unfortunately, I am dissatisfied to report that the changes have gone in the wrong direction.

We haven’t received a style change for the Gargoyle yet. What you offered is consistent with the second sentence, i.e. offering a different choice, but it is still a different choice, not a change of Gargoyle style.
This change does not change the Gargoyle’s style, in fact it bypasses it

In BFA we didn’t have anything like Vile Contagion and it was the best game you managed to implement for the wound mechanics.

If you want find ways to make the friction of playing with them less, You should:

  • just remove the cost of using Vile Contagion and make the disease spread to all nearby enemies after using this skill and infect them with 6 stacks of festering wounds. That’s all. It’s so simple.
  • make Festering Scythe a replacement for Festering Strike (i.e. a core skill for us) and remove the 20 wound condition for empower.
  • Festering Strike always applies 3 wounds

Basically, you could give a choice between Festering Strike and Festering Scythe.
Festering Strike could be heavily buffed and act as an execute, it can even passively apply Soul Reaper and Outbreak for passive disease application and apply 6 wounds to the target, while Festering Scythe can function in an AoE environment as a basic wound building skill

Has anything changed in this regard or is it exactly the opposite of the goals you set?
Our opener still looks the same.
This isn’t bad overall, but it’s a shame you couldn’t offer at least one change that would make us play without a skill or two.
You could easily get rid of the hideous Outbreak. Apocalypse could work together with Dark Transformation (you once offered this). You could add this choice in talents, but I don’t know why you wouldn’t want to do it.

AND OTHER

MIX Build- Wounds with Pets
PVE - Dungeons

Festering Scythe is totally useless in this build.
I completed the HC dungeon and at no point did I get the slingshot for the improved Festering Strike. This does nothing to improve my rotation in terms of changing targets or quickly applying wounds to detonate them quickly.
If I don’t control it, it will still be useless.
I suggest changing the whole idea.

  • Or it will work on request, e.g. when there are two enemies without wounds nearby, your Festering Strike will turn into Festering Scyhte.
  • Or it will be a permanent replacement for Festering Strike.

In my opinion, Sudden Doom is working very well and I am very happy with it.
However, this sometimes causes unintended problems.
When I use 2x Festering Strike and it only applies 4 wounds to the target and I use Death Coil (with Sudden Doom), I have a problem with using Apocalypse because I just lost one wound to the target.

  • To solve this, you can increase wound application for Festering Strike from 2-3 to 3.
  • You can also remove burst wounds for Sudden Doom,
  • However, I understand why you introduced such a change - it’s nice in an AoE situation when Epidemic causes an explosion of wounds, and above all because there are situations when we can’t use Scoruge Strike and then Epidemic comes to the aid of our rotation.

I don’t want to stop using Sudden Doom (if possible) when it gives me Icy Talons and Doomed Bidding or Death Rot (if I choose it), or because of the benefits of A Feast of Souls or Fury of the Horsemen.

Instead of the current version, you can use my ideas:

  • Festering Strike always applies 3 wounds to the target
  • each stack of Unholy Blight also applies a festering wound to the target
  • once you do this you can remove Vile Contagion outright or make Vile Contagion an improve for Unholy Blight
  • change Festring Scythe into Scourge Scythe - thanks to this change we will always be able to use Scourge Strike to burst wounds on 5 or 7 targets without using DnD/Defile.

this gives me better control over what I want to do and I can better plan the application of wounds in an AoE situation.

In this build, but I suspect that also in other configurations I will always want to click Epidemic, although due to Whitemane’s Famine and Trolbane’s Icy Fury I will feel embarrassed because then I will be forced to spam Scoruge Strike - this is not a good combination. This is already frustrating and unpleasant.

Theoretically, I don’t need to use Outbreak because I have Unholy Blight every 30 seconds. So why are you forcing me to keep the Outbreak skill on my bar? I do not want it. This annoys me.
Most of the time in the game, this skill is redundant. Same with Soul Reaper - because it is a skill that only gives benefits when the fight is over.
Therefore, what you should do is remove Outbreak and Soul Reaper should additionally apply Virulent Plague for 5 seconds. Its range should also be increased to, for example, 15 or 20 yards.
Such a change would mean that we would have one less useless skill on the bar and the skill itself would be used (in total) more often than 2-3 times per fight.

During the fight, I don’t know which Horsemen is active. I would like to see some aura, some buff, because I don’t know, for example, when DnD will move with Mograin (is it him or someone else?)

I apologize for the bitterness in my posts. Please understand.
I want to help improve the best thematic spec in the game.

PS. I also believe that Deathbringer should be included in the basic class DK tree, and in its place there should be a Necromancy tree as a hero specialization.

PS2.

  • I’m having trouble following Darion Mograine’s DnD - so this idea just doesn’t work. Additionally, Darion attacks a different target than me.
  • I also have a problem with tracking down Trolbane’s Icy Fury because I don’t know when it activates,
  • and I also have a problem with making the most of Whitemane’s Famine because when it appears, the situation often forces me to press Epidemic.
  • Only Nazgrim does not cause any problems because it does not introduce any additional mechanics to perform in order to achieve bonuses. His presence has a passive effect.
2 Likes

One important thing - that’s why I’ll write it separately here.

If by some miracle I use DnD from Darion, when I choose Defile I am mathematically at a disadvantage because it does not receive a mastery buff and Defile is stronger than DnD - this makes absolutely no sense to me:

  • due to not being used in combat, so it still doesn’t solve the DnD problem.
  • even if it succeeds, it is a weaker version than Defile
1 Like

Raise Abomination replaces Army of the Dead, so I’m not sure what you’re talking about…

I agree with basically everything you listed there for Unholy, so let me save typing time and just sign my name under your assessment.

I especially agree with your comment on Control Undead, and I think generally similar abilities (for Warlock and Priest) should make the controlled mob a following minion (like Risen Skulker) instead of controlled pet, because the same issue occurs when you cast Subjugate Demon as Warlock.

Also…

THANK YOU! Finally someone who notices it as well! This tree for me had grand expectations, and none of them involved summoning Riders instead of being one yourself.

Personally, I think it would have been better if rather than physically summoning the Horsemen, the Rider’s Champion talent would grant the effects as buff on the player (Mograine and Nazgrim) or make your next ability apply the debuff (Trollbane’s through your own Chains of Ice and Whitemane’s through Festering Strike or Outbreak) so we can choose which target and when gets affected.

I agree that Deathbringer is probably the best hero talent for Death Knights (and one of best across all classes).

2 Likes

Currently as Blood, being Deathbringer is superior to San’layn in Dungeons due to the damage profile and generally easier flow of the hero spec:

  • Rather than maintaining a buff that stacks to significantly large number that cannot be refreshed, we have a simple, elegant and very strong new ability that revolves seamlessly around our general rotation and toolkit.
  • As such, Deathbringer just keeps playing as normal without any interference, whereas San’layn nearly forces you to forgo your rotation and ignoring your resources or proper cooldown usage (using defensive one offensively) to make sure we fully benefit from the keystone buff.

In most recent testing of San’layn, I noticed I got absolutely ZERO procs of the keystone talent’s Vampiric Strike through via Death Strikes. Funnily enough, it wasn’t even a problem for Essence of the Blood Queen uptime because I was maintaining 100% uptime through Vampiric Blood with Red Thirst CDR…

I find how Essence of the Blood Queen is generated and maintained as quite problematic: Instead of a steady flow of procs that allow us to gain the stacks and maintain them throughout the fight, we are pushed into a degenerate playstyle of using Vampiric Blood regardless of its defensive use and need. This issue will be further evident in harder content (High M+) where we will be using VB for buff and not for defensive value.

I’m confident a lot will agree with me that Unholy’s Festermight current incarnation is much better than the old one - probably even Blizzard dev team will, given they introduced this change themselves. As such, why was it deemed good to implement Essence of the Blood Queen as old Festermight?

Also, the fact Essence can already be maintained at 100% uptime is worrying for the future of the hero class in future seasons, likely setting itself up for multiple adjustments over the course of patch lifecycles.

Newly Turned/Vampiric Speed:
The first choice node doesn’t feel like they belong together, it’s just two talents doing completely different things.

  • Newly Turned can be potent in PvE, but is very limited, notably due to the fact the combat rez is shared across the party/raid. if other classes use up the rez pool, the talent is effectively dead.
  • On the other hand, Vampiric Speed is universally useful, both for the DK as well as for their allies.
  • Suggestion: Allow Newly Turned to bypass the combat rez limit (once per Raise Ally’s 10 min CD) to make the talent competitive.

Vampiric Aura/Bloody Fortitude:

  • While Bloody Fortitude reads as if it was meant to be a strong option for M+ Dungeon content through the CDR, it loses with Vampiric Aura that offers potent group utility that is hard to pass, along with constant personal benefit.
  • Suggestion: Instead of CDR on kills, Bloody Fortitude, have it reduce the CD by 1 second each time you use Heart Strike (Blood) or Scourge Strike (Unholy), or 2 seconds when using Vampiric Strike. This could make the talent more consistent and useful in Raids.

Pact of the San’layn/Sanguine Scent:

  • It feels to me like Sanguine Scent should have been a choice node with Blood-Soaked Ground, as both offer increased chance of gaining Vampiric Strike. Then again, BSG offers damage reduction that would make it an automatic pick for Blood, unless Scent offered defensive option too.
  • With how low the proc rate of Vampiric Strike is (and again, in some tests I had no procs at all) and the ability to maintain 100% uptime on Essence through degenerate VB usage, the increased chance of proc in Sanguine Scent is a waste, making Pact of the San’layn an automatic pick.

Key takeaways:

  • Unlike other classes or specs, exiting choice nodes for San’layn are either insufficiently tuned (one choice being significantly better than the other) or provide completely different, unrelated feature.
  • For Blood, Deathbringer is superior choice in PvE (especially M+) due to its toolkit that aligns and does not interfere with the standard rotation and ability use.
  • Essence of the Blood Queen, San’layn’s core mechanic creates significant friction and leads to possibly unintended ability use.
    – Simple solution would be to make Essence work like new Festermight (rolling separate stacks) and shift its stacking from the capstone (CD) to the keystone (proc).
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This is something I wrote a long time ago.
Currently, we are summoning more NPCs, but it is random, so the interaction is hopeless, but my suggestion was to add passive bonuses that would strengthen our skills, and when activating the Army and summoning riders, the passive effects would be more powerful or their effects would be slightly changed.
Riders would only appear when they were actually summoned. Passive bonuses should work outside the usage window.
I also lack a talent that would allow me to choose which rider I want to have by my side permanently, e.g. Mograine. However, if someone did not want an additional NPC, they could choose a passive talent.

2 Likes

A few things I noticed while tanking dungeons:
Vestigial Shell: Only applied to one party member, never seen the intended 2
Otherways the new class tree is a banger for Blood, only problem is I don’t have enough points to take everything I want, but that’s the best kind of problem.
Spec tree:
Love the new Bone Storm, but its damage could use some buffs. It deals the same damage as Abomination Limb, but its opportunity cost is higher.
New Blooddrinker is great.
Rune Tap or Gorefiend is mandatory to path through, it would be better if there was a way to go around, as we already have a high button bloat, and the rune cost of Rune Tap is usually not justifiable, and Gorefiend is nice but not always needed.
I feel that the baseline Crimson Scourge procs less than previously, as I have prolonged periods of time without DnD and waiting for procs or cooldown, the same never happened in DF

Hero talents
Only played San’layn so far
Mostly positive, only problem is the general Vampiric Strike proc rate. It procs way to rarely outside of Vampiric Blood as Essence of the Blood Queen hardly ever refreshes or stacks above one when not under VB. It’s possible it gets better with higher haste levels but based on the procless periods I have now I doubt it.

2 Likes

Frost Deathknight Feedback :

I am going to give honest opinion about how it feels for me to play Deathknight in TWW, i really hope this will help.

TWW Talent trees :

We are lacking of mobility, everyone will agree on this, however The War Within tree gave us some tools to solve this problems but only in the “Rider of the Apocalypse” tree, which is problem i will discuss in “What i would change” part.
After testing both trees my opinion on what we are going to play for Mythic+ is “Deathbringer”, for many reasons : AoE , short CD , Defensive CD reduction , combine well with some spells and talents such as “Icy Talons” , “Cryogenic Chamber”.
Raid is not currently available i can’t tell which one we are going to play, since it depends on bosses abilities ( Single target, Single target + adds, AoE etc… )

Deathbringer :

The gameplay is actually good , i used to hate the Obliterate spec but it now feels kind of refreshing, new spell with a lot of additional effects, cool animations, and balanced damage ( ~18% overall DPS ), which is in my opinion pretty good.

Rider of the Apocalypse :

About “Rider of the Apocalypse”, i am not a huge fan of this kind of talent, mainly because it is a 4 part passive.
It grants a lot of thing ( Damage % , Offensive CD reduction, Main Stat, AoE, Single Target, Movement speed), but still it is random, really strong but random.
The only way to counter this RNG is Frostwyrm Fury which summons the four of them, but this is the main reason i don’t like this, it feels like Blizzard is actually telling us : "Play this talent ( Frostwyrm Fury ), to play this one… I don’t blame them, i point out a problem.

Class Tree :

Finally ! no more 2% Crit , 2% Strenght, however i can understand the “5% Leech” ( a stat that comes with our lore ).
It looks like devs want “Anti Magic Shell” to be our indentity spell even more ( I am not complaining since the old Legion AMS is back due to “Unyielding Will” ), we now share a part of our AMS with “Vestigial Shell” which is crazy strong !
We now have access to more and more combinations due to some talents going from 2 points to 1.
Playing DK in TWW feels like you CAN’T die, great work from devs on this part, we still might be able to offtank for a short duration, which in some case can save Mythic+ keys or Raid bosses.

Specialization Tree :

Obliterate :

As i said before Obliterate spec is strong right now, dual-wielding looks crazy with the combination of “Smothering Offense” , “Icy Death Torrent” and “The long Winter”. ( By the way “Icy Death Torrent” brings some nostalgia with the old “Frozen Pulse” talent which has similar animations ).
Gameplay is smooth, really feels like you are doing damage ( Even if other classes are doing better actually ), the new “Frostscythe” is way better than the older, having both “Enduring Strenght”, “Icecap” and “Frostwhelp’s Aid” for only 3 points is fantastic.
The “Shattering blade”, “Shattered frost” is a great combo, we will have to track Razorice stacks to play with it, adding some small details between good and bad DKs.

Breath of Sindragosa :

By far my favourite spec in this game, i am going to be the most objective i can with this one…
I don’t know what to think about “Hyperpyrexia” since we traded it with “Invigorating Freeze” which was really good. One of them ( Invigorating Freeze ) is oriented on sustaining your breath, while the other wants you to burst even more, i don’t know if we win or lose on this one.
We lost 1 stack of Empower runic weapon, hyportermia rune, and a lot of ressource generator talent, i know why and i won’t complain more since it was a real problem, a 2 min+ breath seems ridiculous, but the breath went from 75.92% Attack Power to 94.9% , which is in my opinion not enough.
It is the old bursty breath which is good but it falls SO HARD, i dont know what devs can do on this except add more % to the ability.

Overall i would say DK has a satisfying gameplay now, great tools for both raid and mythic+, good talent changes.

What i would change :

  • Since “Wraith Walk” has no related talents in the class tree, i would make this ability baseline, so we would finally have a baseline movement speed ability.

  • Either reduce the rune cost of “Frostscythe” or reduce it’s cooldown by 5 sec, so the gameplay would be even smoothier.

  • Buff “Breath of Sindragosa” damage by 10% ability power, i could’nt imagine a way to resolve the downsides of the non breath moments, the only way to make it stronger is to buff it.

  • Change damage type of “Abomination Limb” from Shadow to Shadowfrost so it would combine with Deathbringer TWW tree, since it doesn’t provide procs on any spec anymore.

I am sorry about my bad english, this post is about my opinion and my opinion only.
Thanks to devs. Keep on good work.

Edit 1 : After doing some Mythic+ keys, it really feels like Howling blast and Frost fever deals no damage at all.

4 Likes

Arms, which has significantly fewer things to track and fewer skills, gets a cut, while Unholy players can’t ask for a CD or skill reduction - which I’ve been suggesting in many ways for many years now.

-Remove Outbrak or combine it with Soul Repaer,
-Remove Vile Contagion or combine it with Unholy Blight or Apocalypse (as upgrade)
-Combine Apocalypse with Dark Transformation
-Combine Pestilence with Death and Decay/Defile and increase the chances of applying wounds
-Then add a new talent that replaces this effect with causing a free Epidemic - for a disease build.
- All Will Serve may additionally have, for example, a 15% or 20% chance of bursting festering wounds from secondary targets.
- Death Rot (remove), but if you want to force it, speed up the application at least twice and extend the duration to 15 seconds,
- Icy Talons, also needs to be extended to 15 seconds.
- Move Army of the Dead higher and place it between Festering Strike and Apocalypse and connect them with nodes
- also move Raise Abomination and create a choice node with Army of the Dead
- move Summon Gargoyle to the old Army of the Dead spot, and add the Dark Arbiter talent below (1 min CD reduction for Gargoyle)
- Ruptured Viscera (same story as other junk talents) - but if you want to keep it, it needs a change.

To limit the number of CDs (I was thinking of Corpse Explosion as a CD every 45 seconds to order ghouls to jump towards the enemy and cause an explosion), a way to passively trigger this effect should be found, so the ghouls should immediately jump to the target and explode after being summoned, or another way:
Ruptuted Viscera blablabla. Additionally, your Apocalypse casts Death and Decay where you are, and the ghouls explode after standing in Death and Decay for 3 seconds.
At the very end you can buff the skill accordingly because even now it is about 0.7% of the overall after completing the dungeon. This is a pathetic and even marginal result

1 Like

Both unholy and frost riders of the apocalypse are very weird to build. Having our main power of the hero tree tied to frostwyrm and army of the dead forces you to take a talent that will reduce the choice in the most powerful part of the tree + we get a hero talent that reduces the cooldown of horn of winter and unholy blight which also forces you to pick those talent and if we end up not pick them then the hero tree fails at its job.

The worst is frost right now : frostwyrm’s fury talent “Absolute Zero” really is a pain to take and 180 or 90 sec cd doesn’t match with breath of sindragosa at 120 sec. If everything, i despise frostwyrm’s fury, it’s a very cool spell but it serves no purpose in a class that has either a bland gameplay (no breath) or a very engaging gameplay that is unfortunately very hard to bring in most content. On top of that, we always want to press frostwyrm’s fury at the end of pillar of frost to maximize its damage which is already weird but is even more weird when considering breath of sindragosa.

In the case where we keep the unholy blight/horn of winter hero talent then it would makes sense to make “Apocalyspe Now” work with it and summoning only 2 horsemen.

However this means RNG during our burst window since we do not summon all 4 horsemen which is less important for frost but terrible for unholy, however frost would suffer from needing to press horn of winter without needing power generation so this solution is a big no no.

Then why not a new button ? Deathbring has one, so why not riders ?

This will feel bad for unholy that already has so many GCD in their burst window and the cooldown of this spell is a subject of discussion since unholy has a burst every 45 sec while frost with breath of sindragosa is on 120 sec.

Best solution i can think of is reducing breath CD to match unholy burst and either lowering it’s power or not depending on tuning. Obvioulsy not 45 sec cd but 90 sec. And i guess this would also make breath a bit more enjoyable and playable in some content.

2 Likes