Hello, and thank you for the opportunity to participate in the Beta testing of the Midnight Expansion!
I would like to share my experiences and observations from the perspective of a veteran player (started in July 2007) and a long time tank (since WotLK), with past history of clearing all Raid bosses on highest difficulties, and as of Shadowlands focused on Mythic+, though not a high key pusher (currently 3.1k, not interested in pushing higher due to lack of tangible rewards).
I currently main two classes (i.e., playing both to same extent), Demon Hunter and Death Knight, primarily in the tanking role that is closest to my heart. As I am getting into playtesting, I wanted to share my initial thoughts now, and add additional in-depth feedback once I get more experience in the more end-game type of content where the tanking role shines.
Perspective Disclaimer:
I will be mostly referring using āvibe and feelsā rather than hard math. There are greater brains within Demon Hunter community that have the talent and skills to optimize the playstyle; personally, I consider my feedback as coming from a casual player who just wants to log in and have fun, with nominal research and character optimization, but without simming every new item or spending hours in Excel spreadsheets.
Initial Thoughts:
1. The Good
Generally speaking, the majority of changes to and simplification of the Vengeance Demon Hunter are overwhelmingly positive. The main rotational abilities and defensives were improved and simplified. There are more good than bad things, so letās start with cheering on the good stuff:
- New Spirit Bomb feels amazing and has itās own niche, with the cooldown (reduced by Haste) being the cost of it hard now.
- Finally, uncapped target limit on Soul Cleave! Obviously, this was likely warranted due to Spirit Bomb change, but still feels amazing. There is something about the animation, the visual and the sound of Soul Cleave that scratches that itch for me. If only it had the green tinge of Fel instead of the odd purpleā¦ At least a glyph, perhaps?
- Simplified Frailty is a major improvement, as it removes the mental load of choosing to add stacks on multiple high-priority targets vs. using other abilities.
- Fiery Brand applying a defensive buff instead of relying on debuff is a major bonus for big pull M+ enjoyers, not having to wait half the engagement for debuff to spread - the spreading is now for damage purposes, not survivability.
- New Demon Muzzle is a significant improvement, I thought it was an amazing idea when it was added to Shamans, and I am excited to see it added to Demon Hunters.
- Wings of Wrath is probably the strongest capstone we get and itās not even offering direct offensive or defensive bonuses. Absolutely loving it!
- Burn It Out/Soul Cleanse self-dispel choice node, which will help with a lot of encounters and an M+ affix.
- First In, Last Out which will help a lot with engaging new enemy packs, and upgrades Infernal Strike into a minor defensive CD.
- Vengeful Beast - I wasnāt happy to see Fel-Scarred go, but this is a pleasant and meaningful way to keep a part of it.
- It would be nice if the abilities upgraded (to Soul Sunder, Spirit Burst andā¦ well, Fracture didnāt have one) as they did for FS, same as they do for Havoc and Devourer in their respective Metas.
2. The Bad (not really bad, but not good either)
Then there are some really good talents but with some caveats I am not too keen on. Some of these are a tuning matter, and some feel awkward for one or another reason:
1. Felfire Fist
Donāt get me wrong, I love this talent, I think itās an amazing idea to bring back Sigil of Flame being cast on Infernal Strike and I love this talent, I have a concern about its implementation. The concerning part is of course the fact the talent requires dropping out of combat - a talent most useful in M+ where chain pulling is often preferred or even required.
While Vengeance get this requirement implemented, at the same time Rogues have it removed - historically a class that required dropping out of combat to go back to Stealth and be able to perform their opener. This doesnāt seem fair to me.
If the Team is open to ideas, this concern could be easily fixed by having Felfire Fist mechanics be inspired by Havocās Initiative talent:
- Damaging an enemy with Infernal Strike that is not in combat with you places a Sigil of Flame at the target location. Vengeful Retreat refreshes your potential to trigger this effect on any enemies you are in combat with.
This is by no means a perfect solution, but something that maybe could be used for inspiration and iteration. I just think using either or both of the Initiative talentās functions could make Felfire Fist more functional and remove the friction of having to drop off combat.
2. Soulcrush
This one is very simple - this talent is mandatory, as is pretty much every Frailty-related talent, but this one so much more. The only issue I have with it is a capstone that can only be reached by spending two talent points into Vulnerability. Thatās 3 talent points in Gate 3 that cannot be moved elsewhere, limiting choices.
I believe the talent should be made baseline, baked into Frailty. A lot of classes and specs had mandatory talents that added modifiers to existing abilities baked in to simplify them, and Soulcrush feels like a talent that has missed reaching that goal.
3. Painbringer
With the update to Calcified Spikes, Painbringer seems to be a worse, more expensive copy of that talent. Moreso, the talent name never fit with what it does.
It would benefit the tree if the talents did not duplicate effects (and personally if their names aligned with what they do). I think as a 2-point talent this could be a talent that draws inspiration from Unholy DKās Ancient Power:
- Consuming a Soul Fragment increases your [Agility/Critical Strike] chance by X% for Y sec. Multiple applications may overlap.
Both Agility and Crit benefit the DH offensively and defensively, so any could work. Also, it would align with other classesā Spec Trees that also offer talents with stats.
4. Soulmonger
This has always been a dead talent, but it has potential. Itās main issue always seemed to stem from the fact Leech (that we have access to through talents) cannibalizes Soulmongerās benefits.
It could be a simple solution to let Soulmonger always grant an absorption shield, not just overheal, or to allow all self-overhealing to shield the DH.
5. Darkness
I always had beef with this talent, now even more since itās contending to be a capstone. For a 5-min cooldown (that can be reduced to 3, but doesnāt have to, so not an argument) it is a very dubious ability. Two factors:
- When it works, itās amazing. But itās RNG nature can also cause it to do absolutely nothing every 5 minutes.
- Itās visual isā¦ invisible. Even when I cast it in the middle of combat and I know where it is because Iām standing in the middle of it, I can barely see it.
As a 5-min CD capstone, I would expect this talent to at least offer 10% damage reduction at all times (which is less than DKās 4-min Gate 2 15% DR AMZ). Most of all, however, it needs a better visual - a floating translucent cloak of purple mists (that doesnāt cover ground effects), or anything that my party can see immediately.
6. Soul Splitter, Revel in Pain, Final Breath
Tuning issues, honestly. These talents sound great on paper, but they seem to be too poorly tuned to be worth considered.
- Soul Splitterās 2-point investment for 4% chance is too steep.
- Revel in Pain is a talent I cannot be serious aboutā¦ Even 20% of Fire damage dealt would be too low. It is already capped at 10% max HP, and I have no idea how would anyone reach even 1% of max HP in shield in combat with 2% Fire damage contribution.
- Final Breath has the problem with Fel Devastationās channel not being reduced by Haste and creates a partial tick that can deal next to no damage.
- Besides that, Fel Devastation can often be cancelled early (movement or casting an ability instead of queuing it), making this Gate 3 ācapstoneā null and void.
The Ugly (a.k.a. personal concerns and ither issues)
1. Spec Talents in Class Tree
The Class Tree still contains a number of talents useful to Vengeance only:
- Infernal Armor (Armor and Thorns during Immolation Aura)
- Aldrachi Design (Parry bonus)
- Live by the Glaive (Fury generation and Heal on parries)
From Vengeance perspective this is not a problem, even beneficial not having to spend Spec talent points, but even though our Havoc and Devourer brothers and sisters have to go through talents that are either useless to them, or a new one (self-dispel) that is awesome, but situational.
Vengeance has a few talents that could be universally good for all specs:
- Burning Blood (Fire damage bonus - could be Cosmic for Dev)
- Fallout (chance for Soul Fragments on Immolation Aura cast)
- Fel Flame Fortification (spell damage reduction during Immo)
- Volatile Flameblood (Immo crit chance and Fury generation)
I think (some of) these talents could be swapped around to give better mid-right part of the Class Tree side for DPS specs while keeping tank talents within tank Spec Tree.
2. Capstone Talent Benefits Disparity
One of the capstones, Demonic Resilience, offers powerful defensive benefit to Havoc and Devourer in form of additional Blur charge. For Vengeance, it offers additional Demon Spikes, which is nowhere near as capstone-worthy. With Feed the Demon, we really donāt need this talent at all, but even without it getting an additional charge of active mitigation doesnāt even begin to compare to Blur.
It seems like, as a capstone, this talent should rather offer a charge of Fiery Brand (and have that part removed from Down in Flames).
3. Movement Speed Redundancy
Demon Hunters were never a class that complained about lack of mobility, mostly because of superior movement abilities in Vengeful Retreat and Infernal Strike/Fel Rush/Shift. With the rework, we still retain Pursuit and Felfire Haste, none of which were very popular picks, but Havoc and Vengeance also gain Felbound, which is significantly worse than the two preceding ones.
On top of that, we get a new capstone talent, Wings of Wrath which is a massively beneficial talent (and probably the only worthwhile capstone we have in Class Tree) that itself, combined with our movement abilities, trumps the need for any extra speed talents.
Devourer gains a superior talent Guile - it is understandable as a ranged caster some spells should get more range, but 3% movement speed Havoc and Vengeance get is nowhere near as valuable.
Instead of movement speed, some of these nodes feel like they are prime spots for adding flat stat talents like all other classes get - they might be boring, but they are still worthwhile and much more valuable.
4. Old Dead Talents Looking For New Job
There are two specific talents that existed pretty much forever but their potential has been squandered by the fact they offered Fury, a resource we always had in abundance. These are Disrupting Fury and Swallowed Anger.
- Disrupting Fury - I do not recall a situation historically when Vengeance would have problem with Fury generation, and now even with Felblade nerfed it does not appear there being any concerns. Havoc, with the removal of Demonās Bite might see some use here, but the problem is not only that this source of Fury requires a talent point investment, it is unreliable as it requires an interruptible cast on an enemy. We do want to interrupt enemy casts, but we need to be tactical about it, choosing which spells must be interrupted, not treat it as a Fury source.*
- Swallowed Anger - This one is even more interesting, recently nerfed to offer 1 Fury (at least as per tooltip) when dispelling an enemy. Was there an intent to replace Fury with Soul Fragment?
If a player is to invest talent points into situational talents that require using situational spells such as offensive dispel and interrupt, the talent nodes should offer greater benefit than Fury that isnāt even enough to even cast a Chaos Strike or Soul Cleave. Based on the talent names, there is a lot of potential to make these more interesting, for example:
- Disrupting Fury - Successfully interrupting an enemy with Disrupt increases the damage you deal to them by 5% for 10 sec.
- Aside from the fact the name of the interrupt is Disrupt and that the talent gives Fury, one could say the name indicates the disruption enrages/infuriates the Demon Hunter. The effect can be found in Warriorās Honed Reflexes.
- Swallowed Anger - Consume Magic increases your Agility/Intellect by 5% for 10 seconds when a beneficial Magic effect is successfully removed from the target.
- When I think of Demon Hunter consuming magic, I see them as empowering themselves the same way when they (lorewise) consume demonic essence to become as strong as what they hunt. Consume Magic could therefore
Obviously, the values and durations are just an example, I lack the Devsā expertise. I do think however that such would be better, and could even be made powerful given their limited, situational nature that requires a spell cast to interrupt and a spell buff to dispel from target. Mages are expert at Spellstealing actual magical effects, Warriors can reflect the magic back at their opponents, Death Knights can nullify magical attacksā¦ Demon Hunters could be the ones that feed on the magic to empower their attacks.
- Guest star: Felblade - I am not sure what is the intent of this ability now in Vengeanceās toolkit - it deals less damage and generates less Fury than Fracture. Heck, even Sigil of Flame deals more initial damage than Felblade against single target, which is just silly. Felbladeās only benefit seems to be closing distance, something that Infernal Strike is better used for.
4. Closing thoughts and personal wishes
I know it may look like there is more bad than good, but honestly it is not. It is just that the bad things and things that bother us are the ones we want to talk about in detail. I apologize for the amount of suggestions and ideas - I am well aware the Devs are more than capable of coming up with good ideas, especially knowing how things work on the back end - I did not mean to pretend I know better. I do think that ideas should be shared and maybe someone find an inspiration in them - or an idea might be something one missed due to having spend working on something for way too long (I am a designer IRL, not related to gaming at all, but I know the pain of iterating and reiterating over and over and over again).
In truth, I am having a blast playing the new Vengeance and I havenāt even reached max level yet (taking my sweet time). None of the āissuesā I raised are dealbreakers for me or something that will push me back from the class.
As a final note, as I would not be myself if I didnāt push for itā¦ Until Devourer, Demon Hunters were always about using Fel/demonic energies. With the loss of Fel-Scarred spec, Vengeance feels too purple in too many areas, with both Hero talents having purple/Void image and spell effects.
- Could we have some of the purple visuals replaced with green instead? None of Vengeance abilities are Void/Shadow/Cosmic damage. Wounded Quarry deals Chaos damage, but it has purple animation. Soul Cleave animation is purple. Fury of the Aldrachi is purple. Can we keep purple at Annihilator and have green in Aldrachi Reaver? Pretty please?
- Last and least, can we please have green-tinted Aldrachi Reaver icon?
When Vengeance lost Demonic, I started to wonder if our demon form will only be coming from 2min CD abilityā¦ Then the Apex talents for Vengeance were announced, and wellā¦
Amazing, simply amazing! 9.5/10 would recommend. I think that among all tank specs, Vengeance gets the best Apex option - even better than Blood DK due to the fact we get full control on when we use it.
Now, the 0.5 point is missing from a perfect score because I am not too fond of the proc being tied to Metamorphosis button - I like to tap my buttons multiple times and Iām afraid Iāll use the proc and the main CD when I really donāt want to do so.
- Iād feel better if the proc replaced Demon Spikes with Apex Metamorphosis rather than Metamorphosis CD itself. Both Meta and DS are defensive abilities and double-tapping the ability to have Apex Meta and Demon Spikes is less painful than putting 2min ability on CD. Alternatively, Fel Devastation could be the trigger ability - anything but Meta CD.