Feedback: Mythic Keystone Dungeons

While i believe this thread is meant for feedback on dungeon design, there are far more pressing issues with m+ at the moment.

I read somewhere that devs prefer players giving feedback that explains their problems, rather than offer solutions, but i’ll just do both.

Problems:

  • m+ beyond +10 is EXTREMELY unrewarding for the increased effort.
  • affixes are imbalanced and most of them are NOT FUN.

Rewards:
Gear: While this may be a controversial opinion, I believe end-of-dungeon and/or weekly rewards should progress beyond +10, at a slower rate (for example heroic raid itemlevel +5 at level 13, +10 at level 17 at the end of the run; 20% of an item extra per level above 10 from weekly stacking in a way that if you do a +11 5 weeks in a row you get the extra item). I am also not sure why the max weekly reward isn’t on mythic raid level as it has been in the past.
Cosmetics: The seasonal keystone conqueror and keystone master feats of strength should offer unique cosmetic rewards (transmog sets/pets/mounts/titles).

Affixes:

  1. Explosive:

Explosive is the most prohibitive affix in the game at the moment. Regardless of the keystone level you are doing, pulling more than a few packs will often result in a wipe, due to the random nature of explosive orb spawns and the ability for explosive orbs to spawn more explosive orbs.
Even when dealt with properly, explosive will slow down the run immensely because some, if not all party members need to stop using aoe abilities in favor of single target, just to kill something which doesn’t count towards trash percentage or boss hp
Before offering my solution, I would like to point out the design philosophy of explosive: “randomly spawning enemies that you need to quickly switch to (not aoe down)”
Solution: Instead of dozens of small orbs spawning randomly have a single big orb spawn with a long cast time which causes a wipe, still forcing players to swap to it, but also allowing some non-burst classes to have time to do some damage to it. In my opinion, it should also explode when killed, dealing damage equal to its max hp spread evenly among nearby enemies (preferably without breaking CC).

  1. Grievous:

While I like the idea behind grievous, having a healer affix that punishes players for taking avoidable damage, it is way too strong paired with unavoidable periodic group damage (galvazzt, avatar of sethraliss, Unbound Abomination etc.)
The only solution i can see for this affix is that healing a certain amount of a player’s hp (f.e. 20%) should remove a stack.

  1. Bolstering:

Bolstering is the biggest offender among affixes that prevent you from pulling trash the way you like. Take shrine of the storm for example: there are 2 mini-boss type mobs in the dungeon grouped with 4 very low hp non-elites, and trying to pull those mini-bosses with just about anything other than those 4 will cause in the whole group getting a massive hp buff.
Solution: make bolstering a damage only buff with a short duration, but increase its magnitude (f.e. 30% bonus dmg per stack, each stack lasts for 10-15 seconds).

  1. Quaking:

While quaking is one of the easiest affixes at the level of keys most people do, the unavoidable damage it does can often cross into the 1-shot (or rather 2-shot in a quick succession) territory when paired with some abilities in high level dungeons.
I don’t have a good solution to quaking, so I’ll just leave it to the devs.

  1. Teeming:

Teeming on its own is a well thought-out affix, but it should never be paired with fortified in my opinion.

  1. Volcanic:

Volcanic is a non-existent affix and needs serious rework or complete removal.

  1. Skittish:

I believe skittish was added to remind players of the “good old days” when you had to wait for the tank to build threat before attacking. While i would normally not mind that idea, such design has no place in content that is all about speed and efficiency. The degree to which it affects different dps classes/specs also varies a LOT (pet classes technically have 2 aggro tables, demo locks have dozens), and it is completely countered by hunters and rogues.

  1. Bursting:

I firmly believe that bursting is the best designed affix in the game, because it’s controllable and really showcases the difference between good and great players.

9: Raging:

Personally, i find raging to be a well-designed affix, because it can be countered differently for each situation. It can be dispelled on big single mobs and kited or aoe-stunned on packs.

  1. Necrotic:

I don’t like necrotic very much but it’s not as bad as most other affixes, and I don’t have any idea how it could be changed in a way that i would enjoy it.

  1. Sanguine:

The only thing annoying about sanguine is the return of the “X runs away in fear” mechanic, otherwise it’s another controllable affix that rewards good play.

  1. Fortified and Tyrannical:

While I’m not a big fan of these affixes, they proved to be far better with BFA’s dungeon design than they were in legion.

  1. Infested:

What looked like a fun and interesting affix on paper turned out to be a snoozefest of CCing a few mobs, killing everything else and then killing those mobs. Nobody i know has been enjoying the affix this entire season and I’m fairly certain we’re all happy to see it gone.

3 Likes

M+ is mostly fine in my experience. Some small issues have cropped up, mostly that some bosses are way too skill & co-ordination intesive than others on some comps and affixes (second boss in Shrine for my group, with 3 ranged dps & druid healer, interrupt the boss how now?), or just do too much dmg like eudora powder shot putting out 140k dmg with 2 powdershots in a row on the same target (healer did not survive).

-Quaking is almost fine, it is predictable so we can play around it even if it makes the mages sad. Sometimes leads to a bit of an BS deaths when it lines up with an boss ability
-Bolstering is ok too except when it is elite mob surrounded by regular mobs if the elite cannot be slowed/cc’d, mass roots seem the only good way to deal with that and if you don’t have some form of mass CC it can become a s##tshow fast.
-Bursting is fine
-Explosive is doable but could use some toning down in specific cases, no good ideas sadly
-Grievous is really punishing, tuning it down wouldn’t go amiss and maybe end it after 4 or 5 seconds out of combat? (also waycrest manor 3 sisters with grievous is NOT fun)
-Necrotic is not in a bad place (BDK grumble grumble)
-Raging is fine.
-Sanguine is mostly fine, some dungeons are maybe a bit too cramped to place the pools nicely but oh well.
-Skittish is a bit of an “how fast can your tank press Taunt when the frost mage crits for 130k” but I don’t mind it, the mage was going to die anyway
-Teeming is fun in that it changes the pulls, it is not fun as it makes explosives, volcanoes and bolstering ect. much harder and it messes up the enemy feces calculations (though that is also on my team for not looking after it properly)
-Volcanic is fun when it makes a properly hectic fight underrot last boss was an “experince” last week but otherwise it is a bit lackluster you dont even need to move away from it most of the time

Infested was mixed bag, it did make for some fun times but just as often it was just a extra chore-like slowdown, freezetrap 1 mob, kill it by itself last/grip ghuun mob and root the rest, rinse and repeat

1 Like

I really hate the switch between Tyrannical and Fortified every week. Fort makes the dungeon much, much more difficult when combined with other affixes that also buff the trash mobs.

Tyrannical and Fortified should be combined into a single affix (something like 20% boss HP and DMG, 15% HP and DMG on trash) that is being added on +2 and onward.

Another thing, why dont you let us pick the dungeon and the difficulty level instead of dealing with RNG keys and numbers? Just reuse the same system that Diablo 3 uses for Greater rifts.

There should be a bit better rewarding system, I like the fact that achievements were added, although a bit late, it should have been added from start to avoid frustration of having to rush in the end and avoiding having to redo some of the dungeons which were already done in the past, however Its one step forward and it was something I was looking forward for to push, but it would be nice to have rewards scattered from low to high level that people could push for, which could be title, pets, mounts, tmog sets much like what challenge mode used to have.

Difficulty gap is a bit too big between dungeons, there are dungeons which are too easy and there are dungeons which are too hard, they all should be placed in the middle ground where with smooth run you dont have only a few mins left and 1 wiping could potentionally fail timed instantly and you also dont have a dungeon where you can wipe multiple times and still getting done with it. Namely shrine of the storm and king rest feel a bit off and theres also a reason why freehold and atal’dazar are top favorite for running every week.

Shrine of the storm could use maybe 2 extra minutes or so, much like what underrot and tol dagor has received, the timer is very tight and the dungeon is very unforgiving on mistakes, +2-ing it is also close to impossible.

With Kings’ rest the problem is that its too linear, theres not much room for speeding up the dungeon as with any other dungeon, the mini boss room after first boss is insanely slow as an example and mass pulling is generally not possible. The scaling of tyrannical is also a bit off, i mean within the same level of dungeon why does council have 12 million hp all in all, while other bosses have approximately 8,5 mil, if it was a cleave boss i would understand but this way not so much, this hp difference leads to around 5 min of a fight when the timer of dungeon is already very tight.

Some affixes feel not very balanced in certain dungeons, sure it should be challenging, but i feel they shouldnt straight out block you from doing certain dungeons because it leads to too big of a difference than usual. Waycrest Manor comes into mind as an example, sanguine in those very thin hallways cause total chaos with mobs hitting like a truck and having not much space where you could kite, the puddle also lasts long on the ground so you can quickly get overwhelmed by the spammage of sanguine coming from maggots, with more of such mobs spawned from death of another mob, and they place even more sanguine on top of it.

Luck factor in dungeon shouldnt have a place, waycrest manor should have set doors open at all times, or maybe have it on a weekly rotation, but its a bit frustrating to have one run start with right door open and one with left door, providing a different path every single time you start the dungeon based on luck factor.

Some classes should be looked into, rogue for example in many dungeon became a must, due to how useful shroud is, saving pots and invisibility skips being used in many dungeons, they have very insane dps and good ccing ability aswell so theres no reason to not bring one over many other dps specs/classes.

Teeming fortified combo together shouldnt exist, this combo compared to any other affix combos cause the heaviest slow down and annoyance when doing a run, not just it places some insane packs to deal with for example motherlode before 3rd boss, but it also requires you to kill insane amount of trash which is also buffed by fortified and takes forever to kill.

Temple of sethraliss: Only thing that came to mind at the start of the dungeon is the marksman’s neurotoxin which sleeps on movement, i feel it was overnerfed because at the moment it lasts 4 sec only, and you can move quite bit before it could trigger, the nerf almost made the ability non existent, oh and also please fix the skip to last boss and use the debuff to pull and zerg whole dungeon exploit.

1 Like

I am contend with the way affixes and dungeons are balanced.

Shrine of the storm, the last Boss seems to have too much HP considering you reworked the debuff anderen favors specific healers
Its of course one of the more challenging Dungeons, and im Fond with not everything being Atal Dazar / Freehold

The timer from temple of sethralis ist a bit too easy since you basically shortened the last fight by 2min

I want basically Just one thing:
Remove shroud.

Even without shroud, rogues feel very mandantory for many people in skittish Werks.
Rogues bring a lot of utility (sap,blind) even without shroud, so removing it, should be ok.

Another thing I would like to adress are keystones.
I think it was good you removed Key deleting since pushing Keys was too easy by just rerolling Keys.

But there is something I would want to adress:
Leavers.
Its pretty rare but there are people who are grieving other people by leaving Keys.
And I think I have something to adress this a bit:

Have everyones key in a group deplete by -1 once they are inside an activated keystone, unless the dungeons is completed intime or out of time.
Once the Dungeon is completed everyones Key gets raised by+1 except the Key holderswho gets -1 or +1 depending on the timer.

This should make people think twice before leaving a Key.

Thats also an issue. Perhaps intime should make the Key Level stay the same, and only being a lot faster should give you a Key Upgrade.

But bottomline for me is:
remove shroud or at least remove the shared cd on invis pots

The other issue I have with season1 Ghuun affix was:
It was too hard.
Each new week learning the dungeons with new affixes and in top with new routes and pulls due to ghuuns placement was too much, even for a seasoned and experienced m+ player like me.

Challenging, but too hard and time consuming in my opinion

Edit:
Removing the shared pot CD on Invis pots wont work, because Player woul dstack shroud + invis pot.

First of all, please fix the exploits and cheesy strats, because they’re ruining the idea of fair playing field.

Temple of Sethraliss exploit: clearing up to last boss on mythic0 and retaining the mega haste buff after starting the keystone.

Freehold exploit: you already fixed cheesing the infested to not spawn by tagging him through the barrier. What about the exploit allowing groups to skip pig catching or even the turtle miniboss.

Siege of Boralus exploit / cheese: being allowed to kill tentacles on the last boss with the spotter, bonus point for bolstering week buffing your spotter to kill stuff faster. Spotter was meant to help kill trash, but it wasn’t affecting big trash like horsemen. Why does it affect parts of a boss encounter then? That seems more serious mob than horsemen.

When you fix these exploits, then you can look into adjusting difficulty of these dungeons for people who don’t use exploits, so have it much harder now to complete them. For example an average group can easily get overran by multiple tentacles on the last boss in Siege, it takes so long to clean them up.

Another thing mentioned already is stuff pulling through solid walls and floors with azerite traits like laser matrix or frostwhelp indignation, or class abilities like special delivery, halo or frostwyrm fury. Makes dungeons like waycrest and tol dagor much more frustrating and unfriendly to specific classes that put your group at risk of ninjapulling through solid walls and wiping, so you rather not take them.

Hitbox of Aqua’sirr in Shrine is also way too big and you have to meticulously clear every trash in 40 yard radius before you pull the boss if you have a fire mage or similar class with uncontrollable cleave. Being able to pull Heldis miniboss from miles away is just silly.

Also I wish doing dungeons “the normal way” instead of shrouding, death-skipping or wall jumping around mobs was less punishing, these strats very often backfire in pugs, but when they’re deemed so much better than just killing the trash (due to that trash being overtuned or natural path through the dungeon severely overcapping your trash count %) it creates unnecessary drama.

Props to you for nerfing entry underrot trash, that was one good example of making clearing the trash more viable than “always skip”.

There are several “always skip” places especially in Atal’dazar, Freehold and Motherlode - I’d look into that trash and ask yourselves “why is everyone skipping it”?

Many other issues were already mentioned, for example high unavoidable damage that scaled indefinitely on high keys instead of capping at specific player hp %, things like spit gold on King’s Rest 1st boss. Haven’t we learnt anything from Legion tyrannical Hyrja and Lady Hatecoil?

Also in my personal opinion tyranical / fortified should be removed and some lesser version of it incorporated into basic keystone scaling. Otherwise things become impossible to balance, becoming either pushover without the corresponding affix, or to tedious to go through with the affix.

1 Like

Agreed, or just make more mobs able to detect invisibility (more class design!!).

I disagree. I am a “hardcore-casual” and don’t want to play with dummies.

Rio is not perfect, but thats say more about the community than the game.

Hello Blizzard , first of all I want to thank you for this thread since I lost kinda faith in you. i am a loyal customer since I am playing WoW for 14y straight on EU and US.

Main issue with mythic+ is first of all raider .io and then lack of real rewards for completing high keys, when I say rewards I am pointing towards cosmetic rewards as well as server first titles and mounts, something similar as challenge modes. As a very exped player and someone who has completed well over 30k dungeons within my playtime I can assure you that there is legit no point in doing keys higher then +10, because you do not get anything special rewarding for it. On top of that the r.io addon which I boykot with my entire soul and will until it gets removed and you do implement a system ingame similar to it. For example you could solve All problems with just a feature like implementing m+ score ingame and cosmetic items as well as titles and mounts for the achieved score. Eg. On 2.5k m+ score you get full cosmetic gear and everyone can see that you actually worked hard to get it and pissed blood for it and that you actually well deserve it.

One also important thing is that You cant change specs and gear in dungeons which is really sumb and there is no min maxing when playing dungeons, people like choices and they like when yhey can determine in what situation they can pick something. On top of that the bl sated debuff is stupid since you dont loose it when you die( makes no logic to me).

3rd and last thing are the MDIs which are total utter stupidity since there is no special bracket for it and people which would like to compete for it but cant since they do not have gear and access to mythic raids and some of bis trinkets. What you need to do is make a bracket just for MDIs and make people pick gear which only works in that bracket something like tournament gear which would make the MDIs accessible to everyone and make the competition transaprent to everyone.

Also the keys itself are totally uncessary because a group of 5 people pushing keys can get a key which is hard for that week and in some specific situtations where they combo is bad for that dungeon. Now you can tell:” But you can take someones else key and push it fron the grp”. Yes you can untill all 5 of you get the same key and just quit playing for that week which is totally utterly dumb. Great solution to this is to make the pylon instead clickable and select what levle of the dungeon you want for example if you completed a +10 you can pick only 1 levle up or 3 below in that specific dungeon, grps woudnt be forced to look for replacements for mates which they play all m+ with.

Over and out

1 Like

from the start of the expansion me and my friends do mythic+ for fun in all of our alts and it is the only content in the game we do, because we play with the same people everyday the key reroll removel hit us very very hard, we ended up doing less keys, and the point i do not understand about the removel is why? the loot already has item level cap so only people who enjoy mythic+ will do above 10+, so limiting our ability to decide which dungeon we can play and enjoy is meaningless

4 Likes

I still feel like Kings Rest is overtuned compared to other dungeons and this is reflected in the key levels completed compared with other dungeons. I would like to see more azerite power awarded from completing m+, not enough that we feel like we need to farm it but enough that it feels rewarding. It would also be good to look at key depletion after someone leaves the group. I don’t pug much for this reason, as I’ve known people to leave other groups and it then they have to either try and complete with 4 players or they lose their key level which seems unfair especially if they were on track to complete in time.

A few things me and my friends run in to:

Boss-spawned adds spawning affixes (for example, the amount of volcanic spawned by the spores on the final boss of Underrot was ridiculous, and I dread to think of explosive)

Minibosses or extra hard trash packs right before the bosses. It makes sense to scale upwards in the progression bit, but this usually forces cooldowns and you end up pulling the boss without any defensives available.

Uncontrollable mobs like those in the final area of Motherlode are very annoying. Completely CC immune, no grips or knockbacks, and they jump around where they feel like and pull extra adds. No counterplay available feels like bad design.

As the game grew throughout the years, so did the environments. Ground targets did not, however. It is incredibly annoying seeing half a circle in the air, and the other half being hidden, when fighting on stairs. Range indications should always be visible, regardless of terrain.

Some walls arent as solid as they should be. We’ve pulled Jes Howlis through the bars as you walk into his area, before going all the way around. In Atal’Dazar, on the big boss with the ressurection totems, we skipped the trash pack and ended up pulling it through the closed gate later on.

Sometimes players get teleported, because the mobs lose pathing. Obviously a good way to deal with exploits to cheese fights, but I’ve also been teleported walking over a tiny ledge and being considered unreachable while in the air for a split second.

Like most others said, having a way to choose or direct a key would be great. I’d have loved to do all the +10’s in time achievement. We wont be making it for a few reasons, but one of them is that we have not had a King’s Rest key in months. It is very limiting to friend groups playing together.

The claustrophobic nature of some dungeons can sometimes get annoying too. Especially often having your back to a wall. Personally I find magical barriers the most annoying. See through, but they still clip your camera in close. Mostly a problem with things like quaking in Waycrest or such.

Lastly, thoughts on route planning. Planning ahead is simply required, deciding on the go costs too much time in a time pressured format. We are not provided with a proper dungeon map, with enemies and their % count and such. Now with reaping coming up more than ever, we’ll need to properly plan ahead a route and when we hit the 20% breakmarks. Blizzard has to stop making the playerbase rely on third party sources to be able to play the game. We NEED this accessible to do any sort of keys, or to practise for hours upon hours with random keys because we cant even control which we get.
I dislike having to get addons. But how are we supposed to get anything done without things like DBM, Method Dungeon Tool, WeakAuras and so on?

3 Likes

Balance

Some dungeons are still over tuned by either short timers time and/or trash pack difficulty EG Kingsrest (when team are having to 3 to 4 levels lower on a key to time it it shows there something wrong.

Some Affixes have gone from the easiest affix bring anyone in legion to just avoid taking some classes, eg grievous with disc priest, for me I’d like to see affixes change up runs not make some runs impossible to time

I do like the tyrannical and fort coming in at 2 and the idea of the new seasonal affix but making none cc-able mobs infested really messed up another wise good affix but as its going soon I guess that’s ok as long as it is a lesson learned. I am worried about the very limited testing of the new season 2 affix as it only just gone live and I can see protentional issues already with the respawns pulling normal mobs that were skipped.

Rewards

Post +10 the rewards aren’t about the gear I can’t remember when I last got a piece that was an upgrade on my main monk from M+ and I run a at least 20 runs of m+ over 10 each week.

AP rewards don’t scale fairly I’m not a fan on DR on rewards so if that was removed and it scaled better it would be good but still not better than islands

Personally, I’d like to see 10 Titan Residuum from all +10 keys and above, (and on heroic and/or mythic raid content too)

The Big Issue

A fair amount of pugged key go unfinished and it is become a toxic environment for players I cant remember it being this bad in legion yes people left occasionally but it tended to be after x number of wipes in a bad group, I’ve tanked keys were people left because we had 12 mins left to do a 2 bosses with 100% in ML (turns out they needed a +2 on the ML14 to get a better R.io score)

I’m not saying R.io is bad heck I even look at people on there (please never just look at scores, look at what runs people are doing). As such I’m not saying it is R.io fault and blizzard should stop them accessing their API etc. like I have heard said.

If Blizzard give a stacking M+ Deserter debuff that lasted the whole of the reset or 48 hour (whichever is longer) to anyone that left during a M+ within the time. The debuff would have no negative character effects bar the community can know they left x number of runs that week. You could go one step further if they get the M+ Deserter debuff two weeks in a row it effects their weekly chest not sure about this last bit but I really like the 1st bit or something like it as I’ve stopped pugging my own keys as have most of my friends and guildmates.

Finally add a report option to report toxic behaviour as none of the current options fit (and have a human look at the reports please do not automate it as it easy to grief the system)

TLDR:- need to balance M+ better, rewards need increasing from +10 and above, add a penalty for leavers

1 Like

Please bring back the ability to delete / gain a new keystone. It feels so bad when me and the team get bad stones on a bad week. We end up benching one person from the group to get in a pug with a decent stone. Before we would just run a crappy key and all delete our bad ones. This often allowed us to run together for the rest of the week.

You also need to include some kind of reward for say doing everything at +15 in time. PVP has mounts for reaching a point, Mythic/Heroic raiding also to some extent (last boss dropping a mount or raid wide achievement) . All you get from m+ is a rubbish FoS that know one actually even seems to know exists.

As for balance… Well that needs a hell of allot of work. Some weeks (such as this one) are clearly much harder than the week prior. Allot of these affix’s are just not fun. The timers in Shine, Kings and Temple feel less forgiving than in the other dungeons.

1 Like

I like a lot of the retuning that has happened with 8.1.

-Atal-
I don’t think anything really changed here. I wish the last boss would spawn less spiders (or the same amount but less frequently). Generally the different fight length of the priestess fight and the endboss seems a bit ridiculous on higher tyra keys.
Also seconding that on the left side there are some shenanigans with a pack sometimes being in a different position on a key by key basis which seems unintended.

-Freehold-
Love the change to the shark boss, though they still sometimes behave strangly. (Eg. I was closest target, others pretty far away. Shark jumps once into my direction, then slides towards someone else for 1-2 seconds, then jumps again into my direction…) Random pig spawn is fine IMO.
Council boss resetting because the tank gets knocked on a table or something is still annoying, and Eudoras random shot damage still seems excessive.
Endboss hp seems a bit high, especially as there isn’t that much going on, especially for the first 60%. I kinda wish the last 30% dmg taken buff wasn’t as huge and he had a little less hp overall. Making the first 60-70% not as much of a chore.

-Motherlode-
I think nothing really changed here?
I would love some nerfs to the trash before the third and fourth boss. Especially that there are a bunch of non-cc-able mobs that love to jump around seems really annoying. Also I think the bombs that the Venture Co War machine spawns causing bolstering (even to the Venture Co War machine itself) seems unintended.
Azerokk seems really uninteresting for the second half of the fight.
Rixxas propelland blast (or what it’s called) sometimes moves the ground stuff in strange directions (so not away from her). I think it’s to get more ground stuff off the plattform fast but it can sometimes trap you if you dodge the blast itself succesfully and then the ground stuff just decides to move into your direction, just because.
On the endboss we had one of the adds in the transition jump out of the boss area and reset the boss the other day, this also seems unintended.
edit: (Our tank and melee let me say) It would be great if the boss moved faster? There’s a lot of stuff to dodge with the shots from the side and at the same time the boss has a lot of abilities that let him stand still, which can be really awkward at times.

-Shrine-
It’s nice that the protective aura is now interruptable. It’s a good thing that on the second boss the tank cleave is now reliable dodgeable. On Lord Stormsong that his Mind Rend now hits a random target, seems annoying and can one-shot when getting out of the orbs, I wish this was changed back to the closest target or tank, or at least that you’d be immune when getting out of the orbs for a bit. Endboss, I understand why the healer debuff was changed, though the boss hp seems a bit high now (though I think you hotfixed that today). I think I didn’t play on explosive week since the changes, but if on the endboss the small adds still spawn explosive, that was hugely annoying. (Most melee classes have a way easier time with explo, but the explos are spawning all over the place here, basically means you need the casters to do it, but half of them have a really hard time with them and if you have e.g. 2 melee and a ranged that’s bad at orbs, you’ll have a really fun time on that boss)
The minibosses seem a bit boring and really longwinded fights on high fortified. The elementals also just seem like a huge waste of time. I wish they either had way less hp or would give way more mob count (or a mix of both).

-Temple-
Change to last boss was good. Seems less of a pain overall! I like the animation change for the blitz-guy as well. I also like that more casts are interruptable (snake charms, the shield thing). Also the recent hotfix that the first mob doesn’t turn around when casts his whirls is really appreciated.
I think the combination of the dust-snakes casting their dust and the marksman hunters standing still unless you outrange them (or have a monk) is still annoying. I either wish more abilities would still hit them (e.g. displaces, like thunderstorm, typhoon, grips) or they just moved more readily or maybe the snakes would cast their dust less often at least. I think I would prefer the dust being a 99% dmg decrease instead of complete loss of sight but then again maybe that trivializes it too much?
Overall like the temple changes!

-Tol Dagor-
Good changes as well, I think. That you need to interrupt Jezz Howler seems really good. Though that Bobby sometimes casts the Fear close by and sometimes out of range seems strange. Good thing that the cannons scale better (though be aware that there are now more cheeses going on around this). And that the endboss debuff doesn’t stack anymore is really really appreciated. (I didn’t mind as much that it stacked, but that it was so random from fight to fight was reaaaally annoying and this is a fix for it)
We still managed to accidentally pull with the cannon through the wall. We also somehow managed to pull Jezz Howler while still fighting the first group in that room (no idea how tbh). And we had infest go through locked doors. All of which seem unintended. Overall the terrain is still… kind of difficult I guess (and not a lot of fun on sanguine especially)

-Underrot-
The change to first boss was great. I’m fine with the trash changes before first boss as well, I think.
In Pugs I find the randomness of the second boss’ Tantrum a bit difficult, but in coordinated groups it’s not too much of an issue usually.
Last boss is really hard with grievous and hinges mostly on the healer. Doesn’t feel really great.

-Waycrest-
That the adds on the endboss are now stunnable is nice and gives a lot of options, though seem to make the fight mostly just a drawn out tank and spank. It enables a lot more setups, but at the same time the fight seems even more boring now.
We didn’t have any pulls through walls recently, but then again I haven’t really played with classes prone to those during the last two months. Not sure if anything was fixed there or not.
Sisters still seem hard, but I don’t have a strong opinion on them.
Also, I wish which doors are open was on a fixed weekly schedule or just fixed in general.

-Kings Rest-
I like that the adds on first boss have less hp, though we were mostly cc’ing them before, so it didn’t affect me hugely I guess.
In the second boss room, I wish you could pull both constructs at the same time without the risk to bug them out (if they entomb at the same time and try to put people in the same tomb, they bug out)
Also probably specific to my group: We have a guy that even without any addons has problems getting the interface in the entomb loading properly :confused: It’s a bit of a hit and miss if it works or doesn’t. Please let us make a macro to use that ability or something :frowning: (maybe you can already but we haven’t worked it out yet)
(edit) I also had the pet bar bug out and disappear and never reappear (even with the next summon) a couple of times when I get entombed on my shaman with an elemental up (fixes itself after reload tho)
I find the second to last boss still very long on tyra, and the axe hits like a truck. I wish that damage was reduced or the dot duration was or both.
Overall I just find the timer on this dungeon really tight in comparison to other dungeons.

-Siege-
haven’t really played this during the last two months, can’t really comment :S
If the alliance has still different packs in the first boss room, I wish this would be adjusted.

Edit: BIG NOTE: I wish all of the changes had actually been in the patch notes…
Edit2: I wish the teeming, explo, fortified week was removed from the cycle.
Teeming, Fortified is really hard as is. Teeming, Explo is really really random, can be hard, or can be okay-ish. The combo of both is just awful.
Speaking of affixes, I like that Fortified and Tyra plays kind of differently and puts a different emphasis on a dungeon, but I wish the difference was a little smaller. Making both of them a little less potent, would in my opinion still keep the feel but help overall with weekly balancing.

4 Likes

Personally to me the issue regarding mythic key stone dungeon’s so much isnt the dungeons, doing the dungeons is for the most part fine - will comment on some dungeons soon atm, the real problem is the player base.

Alot of the people play this game casually and use the excuse of I am privileged as much as a mythic/heroic raider is cause I pay my hard earned money, I want all content open to me why should a API / leader board tracker stop me from joining LFG’s when I am just here to mooch off higher end players and get boosted for free/leech while inputting 0 contribution with 0 class knowledge or research done. (Seriously these people disgust me, being heroic/nearing mythic geared and overalling 5-8k)

As for the actual dungeons the only one I feel personally insulted by is golden serpent on tyrannical difficulty is a nightmare as the fight drags out and the blobs get considerably chaotic, along with the lightning boss in temple of sethralis.

The last boss in siege of boralus has always been a pain when it comes to the 3rd set of tentacles but its probably should remain a challenge as thats the toughest boss of the dungeon imo.

Changes to some adds preventing core class mechanics such as stealth or DK MC is questionable but understandable to keep the dungeon lay out fresh and challenging despite killing the impact some classes bring to M+

affix changes are supposedly ridiculous in the eyes of some, personally I like the fact some weeks are challenging and some weeks are more chill to make it more bearable to play with randoms

The seasonal affixes are fun, it will be a shame and a relief to see ghuun leave.

2 Likes

My biggest issue with M+ is the fact that it is on a timer. I would love to see this timer go away. I am in a mediocre Heroic guild and the skill level of people is very spread. This means that if you go for the higher keys, you turn to Pug groups with people with high Raider IO scores. In my believe we should always upgrade our key when we finish the instance. Where is the problem in wiping on a boss a few times until we play it perfect. Now we get punished for it. Because we are too slow. Pugging is toxic and not really fun. When was the last time you had a good conversation with someone you pugged for M+. Mostly it is Hi and Bye (And then you are lucky).

Another thing is the fact we cannot delete stones anymore.
Example:
I did not do a Mythic this week.
Now I will have to pug a higher stone. Before running a lower with guildies. Because when I run the lower one I am stuck with a stone I have to push. Why not push the lower key in your bag to the highest key you ran in the same week - 1?

Just my thoughts.

1 Like

Preamble/tl;dr:

M+, specifically high-key m+, suffers from a lack of communication between the balance/design of affixes, classbalance and dungeon design/balance. This creates several issues, that I will talk about in detail below. Our fix for this imbalance was to delete keys and fish for new/better/easier ones. This solution to a problem was removed, but in a self-contained change that did not come with any major balance changes that addressed the underlying issues, which again shows a disconnect between different parts of a machine that need to work together for the machine to not break down.

This feedback is exclusively from a high-key pushing PoV, and some of these complaints do not apply to “lower” keys that are meant for casual play and/or PuGs. It is my personal opinion, albeit most people I’ve played with or used to play with have voiced similar concerns.

Imagine playing a game where you have to go through a gauntlet. People on the outside are supposed to make it harder for you to get there. Person A pushes a button and opens a trapdoor in the floor, so you would have to jump over the hole. Person B uses a lever that lowers the ceiling, so you would have to crawl for a bit. Individually, these slightly increase the difficulty. Combined, they create a scenario that is harder than the combination of the parts. That is what m+ feels like right now.

There has been many core-system changes since legion, some of which drove the “old” players away while bringing new ones into the fold who happily enjoy m+ now. I will try to look at most features without comparing it to the way it played in Legion, because there clearly was a drive to significantly alter the experience to make it more accessible for newer players. There will be the occasional reference to how things worked in legion though.

Reward structure/How to measure m+ success: While there was none in Legion, m+ still managed to attract a lot of people that immediately engaged with this new type of content, and it was hugely successful. An entire new sub-culture of players grew together into a large community, one that comfortably sits next to the raiding and PvP communities these days. All of this happened without any major rewards for doing so, which speaks of how enjoyable and fun m+ has been ever since its first iteration. This is something Blizzard can and should build on.

With the addition of a seasonal system similar to PvP seasons, as well as seasonal affixes, an official leaderboard on the blizzard page and even somewhat regular MDI events, everyone was hoping for actual in-game rewards, as well as better regulation/oversight of how success is measured and promoted for high-keys. Alleviating the need for third-party leaderboards like wowprogress or raider.io is something many people have been asking for, for a multitude of reasons.

Unfortunately, none of this has happened. Having this sort of functionality be official and accessible in-game, would be healthy for the community and the game. The current leaderboards have some major issues. Say if the same 5 people overtime a Tol Dagor 24, but then time a TD23. This new and potentially world-first run will not be shown on the leaderboards and the current understanding of almost the entire m+ community is that only in-time runs really matter. The current implementation of the leaderboards is simply not keeping up with the community perception of what constitutes the “best” run.

Now for the meat of this post: Balancing. It is obviously the main-issue and at the core of almost all issues that are being voiced, and it consists of 3 parts.

Affix balance: Affixes are the biggest variable when it comes to how difficult a specific key is on a week-to-week basis. Something people consider an easy key in this week, might be much harder the next, and even easier the week after. This has always been the case, even in Legion. Most of the affixes still feel like a 1.0 version that was introduced in legion, and did not get a tuning pass for the new expansion, creating multiple issues. Some of these have since been addressed, like bursting and grievous damage numbers, others have been changed to just work differently like quaking, but many affixes feel like they did not get looked at at all as to how they will work in tandem with class changes or the new design of BfA dungeons.

Class balance: M+ has always put a much bigger emphasis on utility than dps/hps, and while every classes potential in the four throughput-departments (single-target, cleave, burst aoe, sustained aoe) still play a big role, so does access to certain utility, both unique and non-unique one.

We currently see a much bigger emphasis on unique-utility than we did in legion - Shroud, Ring of Peace or Treants being some of the major ones.

There’s also non-unique utility like access to singletarget interrupts, which is why you see so many 2 melee lineups. Dispel-types for healers/hybrids or enrage-dispel would be another example of this.

Some of this class utility can now be accessed through professions, like group buffs for stamina, intellect and AP. Engineering now provides the ability to combat-rez, although the “backfired” version of this is very badly designed and needs to be looked at. Healthstones can be traded or accessed through the Proving Grounds.

Most utility however is still very much unique, both in design and who can access it, despite clear examples of potentially allowing for at least one more class or spec to have the same utility. For example it really wouldn’t hurt class fantasy or balance to allow mages to cast Mass Invisibility, same as rogues can use Shroud of Concealment. They already do in PvP.

Compared to Legion, most classes got their utility cut when it was used to aoe-interrupt mobs - one of the major changes to general gameplay was to cut down on just mass-interrupting large groups of monsters until they died.

Most AoE-CCs are now locked behind a talent, been put on a higher cooldown, or had their duration reduced. Some have been removed entirely. Not all classes have suffered in this way however, with certain specs/classes gaining more utility than they had before. This strikes everyone as odd, i.e. no one understands why monks now get access to both leg-sweep and ring of peace, while shadowpriests had their already weak cc-capabilities tuned down even harder. This might come on the back of PvP balancing, but obviously this feedback is solely concerned with how it impacts m+.

Dungeon balance, or rather design: The third part is the basic design of dungeons themselves, where we see the biggest difference when we compare BfA to Legion. Legion put a large emphasis on well-telegraphed and animated abilities that gave the player the time to react to whatever was happening, either though movement, or skill usage. Moving out of frontals/AoEs, chaining AoE interrupts, kiting, outranging, LoSing or simply using personal and external defensives at the right time were all critical to your groups success, and required a consistent level of communication inside the group. Certain dungeons required a specific amount of interrupts to lower the difficulty significantly or facilitate pulls that would ultimately save you time.

BfA has been a stark contrast in almost every single aspect of that. There are almost no one-shot mechanics anymore that require a players counterplay to survive. Most frontals, charges or AoEs are badly telegraphed, and mobs in general are smaller than they were in Legion, making them stand out less in all the AoE/animation clutter. Abilities that you used to outrange or LoS are now random and can either one-shot an unlucky player, or exist to disincentivize kiting. Most abilities just completely ignore LoS and go through walls.

There is very little consistency as to how these abilities behave. Two different mobs may use the same fixate ability, one deals physical damage, can be dispelled and stunned to remove it, while another cannot be removed in any way while also dealing magic damage. This is not intuitive at all, and explicitly counter to the point of making m+ more accessible.

Dungeons have more trash, and that trash has more abilities. Individually, none of the trash is as lethal as their legion counterparts, they do not one-shot and they deal a minor amount of damage. Stacked up, and scaled through the basic nature of m+, this starts to become a major issue on higher keys, as random, instant, melee-range only abilities start to melt tanks and melee alike.

Debuffs are incredibly inconsistent, and heavily favor poison-dispels over any other type. There is more lethal and dangerous poisons in dungeons than there is magic debuffs, the only type any healer-class can dispel.

This part of the “trifecta” also includes the zone-design. Dungeons are much more claustrophobic and limit the area you can fight in through space-restrictions and/or packing them with too much trash. Line of sight issues that lead mobs or bosses to teleporting the tank, and/or evading, and/or casting through walls. Objects like doors and gates that can be opened/closed are a part of this as well, vehicles that players can enter etc.

All of the major issues players have with specific trash mobs, affixes or dungeons seem to exist because it “feels” like these three core-systems have been redesigned and re-iterated on independently.

What this means is that certain affixes make dungeons much more punishing, both in general and specifically.

As an example: Bolstering/Grievous/Tyrannical in a dungeon like Waycrest Manor. There are many mobs with different levels of health. A single pull of 6 mobs can contain mobs with 4 different levels of health, which makes bolstering much harder to manage. This then ties into requiring much higher priority target DPS to even out those health-levels, which has been drastically reduced for most classes, while disincentivizing bigger pulls. This creates the need for certain classes.

Keeping mobs in place is much more important nowadays due to how most classes AoE has been limited in range/area or is based on a temporary ground-effect, and Stuns, Ring of Peace, Treants or strong slows all become much more potent but further limit the viability of classes at the high-end.

The most lethal/important mobs in these pulls are not the ones with the highest health or the biggest size, it’s the ones with the lowest health and smallest size. You’re basically playing whack-a-mole-the-nameplate when interrupting maggots, of which there are 2 types with the same name but different health.

Trying to gauge what direction Retch is being cast at is much harder when mobs are jumping to random players and are inside a dogpile of players, mobs and spell effects.

The amount of unavoidable group-damage severely strains the healer, who has less tools to deal with that damage. Healer-design changed compared to Legion, with all healers having less instant-/high healing abilities at their disposal, while grievous remained unchanged for months.

All of this is one pull, and all of these are individual mechanics that would be fine in a vacuum, but combined are much worse than each individual part. They’re not impossible to deal with, but they work together in ways that should be looked at more closely to prevent unfair situations from happening.

Lets look at it from another perspective by just thinking about one specific Dungeon: Tol Dagor. Designing this dungeon with m+ affixes in mind should immediately have led to questions and changes to the bosses, affixes, or the dungeon itself.

How to deal with necrotic on first boss? Well, it’s been fixed now, after ~6months of beta+live experience.

How will Spawns of Ghuun interact with doors/gates that can be opened? They just run through them, even though the player cannot. We just have to assume this is intended, because no change came, and Infested is gone in a few weeks. Will it be the same for the new seasonal affix? We don’t know, because we are not allowed to test it on the PTR.

Multi-z-level dungeons have always been finicky when it comes to knockback effects or AoEs, yet we have the same clipping issues with abilities pulling one floor below/above us, mobs clipping through walls and evading/resetting, pulling the entire dungeon, or bosses simply evading and resetting mid-fight because a single add spawned in a location where it could not hit the tank.

To come to a conclusion, these examples are meant to explain and illustrate how class, affix and dungeon balance and design work and interact with each other. In Legion, this was a very enjoyable experience and everything felt incredibly deliberate. Some of the BfA dungeons do Legion justice.

In most dungeons however, these individual parts work against each other to create an experience that can, at best, be described as annoying and at worst leads to people quitting over an incredibly aggravating, frustrating and unenjoyable experience.

These are not issues of the game being too hard, because dealing with these situations is not difficult from a mechanical point of view. They are annoyances that feel like they are meant to waste your time, on your goal towards timing the key. It is like the gauntlet I described earlier, that you try to get through, while the people on the sidelines try to make it as hard as possible for you by throwing all kinds of things at you.

But all of this changes the moment a new week starts. You get a new infest rotation, and you can suddenly do a bigger pull here and there, or kill this pack that you previously skipped. Different affixes that don’t interact horribly with the dungeon design, or scale beyond what the DPS, Tank or Healer are capable of, allow you to pull bigger and save time. What this inevitably leads to is being able to comfortably time a dungeon at +20 in one week, while barely timing it on 18 on another. And this is a huge problem.

Same as within a singular week you barely time Dungeon A on +18, while 2-chesting Dungeon B on a +20. Now you got that +22, but the new key is for Dungeon A so you have to deplete it to +18 before you have a realistic chance of timing it.

This is current high-end m+ in a nutshell, and the removal of being able to “fish” for new keys by deleting bad ones, while in itself a good change that is important for the health of the scene, ultimately made things even more frustrating while illustrating the same disconnect between seperate parts of the equation. It worked well in legion, because despite all complaints, there wasn’t a single dungeon you couldn’t at least time on +28, while really only one dungeon was timeable on +30, potentially a second one if we had more time with it. It forced people to engage with harder keys, learning new strategies, and overcoming the struggle that they previously thought was impossible. If you had 5 Seat keys, you were forced to do the dungeon, and you improved after slogging through it, whereas early BfA just led to people completely ignoring Tyrannical Temple or Underrot.

The change itself is also self-contained however, which is the core-principle that plagues most of m+ right now. It removes the players ability to game the system and forces players to engage with all dungeons, not just the easy ones. That is good.

But it does so without addressing the major balance concerns players have about dungeon difficulty, and more important the difference in difficulty, on a week-to-week basis. The “fix” for one of the problems Blizzard saw with the current way m+ is approached, suffers from the same issues as all the issues that lead to us utilizing this “fix” in the first place. This, at its core, is why the m+ system is seen as broken by a lot of people.

18 Likes

TL;DR

  1. Please for the love of the god, fix the bugging pets on siege of boralus last boss, last platform. Hunter/Warlock pets are standing there doing nothing. I have sent numerous bug reports about this one.

  2. Please fix bosses that scales with bloodlust (like tol dagor last boss). When using BL boss seems to cast his abilities more often.

  3. Please fix temple of sethralis first boss turning around when casting cyclone.

  4. Please fix last boss on motherlode animation for gattling gun (it sometimes goes in opposite direction of actual bullets).

Healer class balance for M+ is abysmal.
No one wants a Restoration Shaman in +15 and above keys, either you are a MW monk or Restoration Druid or you can hang out in the lobby for several hours.