Feedback: Mythic Keystone Dungeons

Ilidandkxoxo-alakir · January 9, 2019, 6:42pm

Kings’ Rest

Burn Corruption looks like its moving.
The Council of Tribes - this fight takes about 5 min on both Tyrannical and Fortified.
If Aka’ali the Conqueror is killed earlier earlier, he can still apply Shattered Defenses or kill people when he is doing a barrel charge during the other two bosses.
Deathly Roar timer seems very short and at higher keys, that would be OK if the 2nd raptor didn’t have so much HP.
When doing double Interment Construct the targeted persons always go in the closest tomb, which has a cooldown on how often it can be opened. Either make it immediately interactable or simply tomb the second person in the second closest free tomb. Making this a vehicle also messes with the camera and controls when you go out.

Atal’Dazar

If the skeleton raptors are pulled during Rezan, the boss can be reset if players get too close to the corners in the water (raptors teleport to the player and bug out).
Graphics for the Tainted Blood on the floor are sub-par at best.
If there is a mob or an area where not a single M+ group goes, there is probably something wrong with it, e.g. Dazar’ai Colossus.

Motherlode

The Propellant Blast of Rixxa Fluxflame can move flame patches which are nearby, but not in the direction of the blast.
Homing Missile of Mogul Razdunk does a lot more damage on Fortified than on Tyrannical affixes.
Gatling Gun needs much better graphics.
The Clothesline charge of Addled Thugs has an unneeded knockdown component.

Siege of Boralus

Alliance side trash is absolutely mad before first boss’ packs where you have a combination of Snarling Dockhound, Riptide Shredders, Scrimshaw Enforcers and Blacktar Bombers. Without a rogue or death skip, nigh undoable.
The damage of all of the above rivals the damage of the Berserks damage from KR - too high on both Fortified and Tyrannical keys.

Waycrest Manor

Please make Waycrest doors like Vault of the Wardens where we had a daily rotation of the bosses/route.
Mobs still get triggered through floors, walls, teleports, going through Raal’s doors even tho they are closed.
Sister Malady’s Unstable Runic Mark is too punishing combined with movement limitations.
Virulent Pathogen’s graphic is still bugged - shows after being dispelled.

Freehold

Council o’ Captains still resets when tank gets knocked away, maybe just reduce the knockbacks from Barrel Smash and Whirlpool of Blades.
The animation of Ground Shatter of the Irontide Crusher is still not showing the correct size (its too small).

Underrot

Creeping Rot animation of Elder Leaxa can use some work.

Tol Dagor

The Sand Traps of The Sand Queen do not provide enough knock-up to dodge the Upheavals.
Better graphics on the sand traps especially when in water!
Since last patch Bobby Howlis started casting fears close to the party and sometimes far away?
Too many Marines casting Supression Fire through walls.
Spawn of Ghuunies run through closed gates making them unkillable due to LoS.

Sanguine

Make sanguine pools’ size depend on the size of the mob. E.g. maggots in Waycrest should make really small pools while Thugs in Tol Dagor should put a big one. Overall, reduce the standard pool size a bit.

Explosive

Can be a lot more fun - big mobs can carry 3 explosives, yellow mobs carry 0, medium mobs carry 1, mini bosses carry 5, bosses carry 10. Put a debuff on each mob so players can see how many are left in each mobs pocket. Once they run out of Explosives they cant spawn any more.

Khareal-emerald-dream · January 9, 2019, 7:06pm

I have never liked M+ system at all. So this comes from very negative point of view. I can understand people might like it, but I dont.

M+ in itself is a gogogogo mode. This generates toxicity in the system.
Things like raider io. That thing slowly strangles life out of entire dungeon system.
M+ give too much rewards for little effort. It just makes sense to grind it. To raid mythic, guilds demand you do M+ because its just too good source of gear which then helps progression.
Grind same dungeons over and over and over again with slight changes due to affixes the entire expansion isnt my idea of “fun”.
You have to do it every week or you will fall behind. Add in there some of the previous points and the hoops you have to jump trough every time to get it done. Even harder for people who arent playing meta class. Try to convince someone to invite you to their group. “make your own group”, not all people are leader type. Not to mention its extremely hard unless you are a tank or healer. It takes ages for tank/healer to join group with only 1-3dps in it.

It is too rewarding system in a package that makes its terrible experience unless you are very “hardcore” M+ player. M+ as system breeds toxicity and stress for most people.

Qüinshietero-burning-blade · January 9, 2019, 7:12pm

Atal‘dazar

There are two packs that have rng on teeming weeks (they are or they are not present/have different composition), you cant plan ahead your pulls because of this and it becames really annoying. Just remove this RNG for our sake.

Dazar’ai Colossus should be nerfed, right now 99,9% m+ teams don’t go left side straight to Pristess Alun’za, and just go right side to Vol’kaal first (I just would like to see some diversity)

Yazma on high tyra keys have way too much HP, dodging spiders and doing mechanics this boss takes so much time to kill … either adjust its HPs or increase the cooldown on soulrend. It would also be life-improving change if dead spiders would dissapear faster.

Freehold

Skycap’n Kragg – Azerite powder shot dmg is way too much on high tyranical keys

Council o‘ Captains

Eudora’s dmg is way way waaaay to much
Captaion Jolly – Whirlpool of Blades knocks you in the air resseting the boss, completly wasting Bloodlust and depleting key

There are also three packs that are bugged in terms of pulling … meaning, you have a pack of 5 mobs, you pull one mob in that pack, the one will go with two other mobs and two mobs will stay there like nothing happened … in MDT its pack number G49, G51 and G56

Kings Rest

Spit Gold damage on first boss and Severing Axe damage on third boss are way too high

To be honest, I would just adjust timer in this dungeon… on tyranical last two bosses takes forever because of ridiculous HP (you need about 12-14min left before you start third boss to time it) and on fortified trash takes forever … and you cannot masspull either week because of Spectral Berserker damage

Also at third boss, the totems still cant be hit with spell like Blade Dance

Shrine of the Storm

There is actually no dungeon I hate more

Biggest problem in this dungeon is there is waaaay too much trash with too many mini bosses and short time

Tidesage Council … a meeles nightmare, so many things to be aware to not get oneshoted while doing enough dmg and interupt rotation …

Lord Stormsong … since 8.1 he cast Mind Rend on random target, its not that big of problem just make it that he dont cast it on players who just get out of Surrender to the Void (player have ± 50%, gets hit by Mind Rend instatly killing him on high tyra key)

Vol’zith the Whisperer – since 8.1 and Whispers of Power only affecting healers, this boss just take forever to kill, I would suggest to nerf his HP and reduce his energy gain

Temple of Sethraliss

Adderis and Aspix

Reduce the dmg of Static Shock, the unavoidable 60-80% HP dmg to the whole group followed by other abillities can easily kill in few seconds

Galvazzt

Since 8.1 this boss seems to be a nightmare for a healers, the energy core should be spawning slowly or have dmg reduced

The MOTHERLODE

Rixxa Fluxflame

Propellant Blast – this spell is not working right since the dungeon started, sometimes the spell just push from the middle of the room or random location completly f**king us up

Tol Dagor

One thing I noticed recently here … at cannons, if you Fire to a wall, the damage go thru wall and you pull the pack behind that wall … we pulled several times two infested pack before we realized this

Also ghuun spawns often ignore locked gates

Note on healing

I personally like healing, there are fights where I’m constatly healing, I like these. And then there are fights like first boss in siege where nothing happens and suddenly everyone get spike dmg for half of their HPs, its not fun at all.

Affixes

Tyrannical/Fortified need health nerfs

Quaking should not occur while not in combat

Explosive … since you are not going to remove this affix I would suggest this:

Firstly - set the orbs health to 1hp – its not fun to target the orb and have to waste 2 globals on it, one must be enough

Secondly - cap the maximum spawned orbs – when you pull a big pack, and orbs keeps spawning there comes a moment when you will dont have enough globals to kill them all

Bolstering – just nerf affix to 5%, its really annoying that classes have unavoidable aoe spells and this affix comes up … with combination low HP mob near a mini boss

Necrotic – should be capped or be stacked less often

Grievous – personally haven’t tested after nerf to 4 stack but this affix is really really punishing to healers mana on long tyranicals keys, bosses on tyrannical are enough annoying and with this its just insane

Sanguine – sanguine pools should just not stack in my opinion

On a keystone rerolling

As many other players, I dont really understand the restriction to not delete keystones, to understand… its not fun having 5 shrines keys in your group, push one shrine and you get a shrine again … the keystone deletion was the best time I ever had because we were able to get other players to get higher keys / reroll their keys and do a lot of them

Here my ideas for keys rerolling you guys might like since you dont like keystone deletion

Make key unlock multiple dungeon (like three or more)
Make character special ability to reroll key (lets say with 2 hours cd)

One last thing

Rogues – if you want to push a key, rogues with 5 min CD aoe stealth became a must have class in almost every dungeon this expansion, … the invisibility potion is not a solution because 10 min cd punishment on potions is so long its not worth it in most dungeons

Aylish-emerald-dream · January 9, 2019, 7:43pm

Does it have to do with difficulty…?

I have another problem. I don’t have time/people to push keys(I don’t PuG), and the result is that we never get to do higher keys/progress keys. We get constantly stuck with low keys because the keys go down a level for every week they aren’t used. I’ve honestly given up, and I find it very frustrating to be punished for not being able to do mythic+ often enough.

Can you please look at a system to prevent people from having their keys downgraded if they don’t do mythic+ regulary? I don’t understand why not playing often enough should lock you out of access to more challenging content.

This is another good point. Sadly I realized late that we could have bypassed the problem I described above somewhat, by deleting keys. I became aware of this the week before you made the change that made it impossible to delete keystones. Being able to delete them could have helped us getting access to higher keys in a shorter amount of time.

This is another thing I am not particulary fond of personally. I don’t enjoy finding shortcuts and ways to skip trash. When I had gone Underrot with friends a few times, then joined a basic heroic PuG and the tank decided to take the strangest shortcuts(which by the way went wrong in all possible ways, because it wasn’t a logical path and people just could not keep up), I got quite upset. My imediate reaction was that this tank probably learned the route through Mythic+, but it was very spesific and very easy to fail at, so group disbanded in the end because it went so horribly wrong. Maybe I am strange(or maybe it’s because I have zero interest in looking for those myself), but I absolutely hate it when you encourage people to find “special and tricky pathways”.

Dejarous-draenor · January 9, 2019, 10:16pm

I posted feedback here

Hautsu-gorgonnash · January 9, 2019, 10:22pm

Some of the Dungeons are buggy the worst is Tol Dagor.
I had multiple instances where you could pull through doors floors and cellings. It sucks so hard pulling the second boss through the door and he is charging you with all the trash that is inbetween.
Culprit was probably the “Special Delivery” Talent and the Ox Statue from me as Brewmaster Tank.
Also had Crocodiles form the lowest floor killed us all while we were on the first floor that was funny aswell
Needing Blacksmith/Inscription or a Rogue to allow skips and disable boss mechanics and to get buffs feels meh. Not a big fan of that.

For my understanding Underrot final boss. He spits a line-ish in front of him and some puddles arroud him correct?
Cause sometimes the line is going another dircetion he is facing wich makes positioning awkward from time to time. Maybe its connected to the server lags that are featured in 8.1.

Windwalker has an awkward bug in or out of Dungeons. Some times you can’t use “Whirling Dragon Punch” despite RSK and FoF on CD most of the time when you have a big haste proc like double Fury of Xuen. Feels like cds are calculated wrong then.

On thing for dungeons in general how hard is it to make Nameplates from floors below and above someone not visible? It is distracting and annoying.

Also I have seen Ghuun spawns corrupt mobs if the mobs are bellow them and I guess the hitboxes fit somehow, but that wont matzter for M+ season 2 I guess.

Siege of Boralus is a cool instance. I dont like the sharks in the water sometimes there is a knockback and there need to be more ways to climb out. Getting knocked in in a weird angle sometimes results in a death no matter what. Also the exits are hard to spot som markings for those would be cool.

First boss is cool I dont like the mobs being able to trigger the bombs as well had some treants taunt the mobs of me and pull em through mines wich resulted in boss going Sonic later on. Also possbile the treants triggerd the bombs not the mobs maybe.

Second boss canon is hard to pick up if the other mobs are still arround if the tank is the only melee this is pretty stupid.

Last boss i like the concept but i dont like that players have to sit in the cannons. It makes the boss soooo i dont know unintuitive. Also the boss hitting player while moving from plattform 2 to plattform 3 always puts me on edge especially in tyrannical weeks. i have 2 options as tank stand at boss so everyone can pass or I go to plattform 3 asap to tank the tentacle.
For canons I would prefer it to autofire but before players must load it or kill a mob or the fire on click but players have to pull a rope to move the boss in front of the cannon something like that.

For Affixes:
Explosive: I dont like the idea of Explosive orbs being able to spawn orbs themselfs. Also spawned mobs shouldn’t spawn orbs or volcans it is just stupid I know there has been a hotfix already but it still is stupid sometimes
Bolstering: Mobs spawned from mobs or bosses shouldn’t be able to bolster, namely the Robots before the last boss in Motherload. This makes the last group before the boss alot of fun :3
Tyrannical Bolstering Explosive: Is one of the harder combos while you want to kill single mobs fast to reduce orbs but you cant because it will bolster.

Djhoof-ravencrest · January 9, 2019, 11:02pm

While i believe this thread is meant for feedback on dungeon design, there are far more pressing issues with m+ at the moment.

I read somewhere that devs prefer players giving feedback that explains their problems, rather than offer solutions, but i’ll just do both.

Problems:

m+ beyond +10 is EXTREMELY unrewarding for the increased effort.
affixes are imbalanced and most of them are NOT FUN.

Rewards:
Gear: While this may be a controversial opinion, I believe end-of-dungeon and/or weekly rewards should progress beyond +10, at a slower rate (for example heroic raid itemlevel +5 at level 13, +10 at level 17 at the end of the run; 20% of an item extra per level above 10 from weekly stacking in a way that if you do a +11 5 weeks in a row you get the extra item). I am also not sure why the max weekly reward isn’t on mythic raid level as it has been in the past.
Cosmetics: The seasonal keystone conqueror and keystone master feats of strength should offer unique cosmetic rewards (transmog sets/pets/mounts/titles).

Affixes:

Explosive:

Explosive is the most prohibitive affix in the game at the moment. Regardless of the keystone level you are doing, pulling more than a few packs will often result in a wipe, due to the random nature of explosive orb spawns and the ability for explosive orbs to spawn more explosive orbs.
Even when dealt with properly, explosive will slow down the run immensely because some, if not all party members need to stop using aoe abilities in favor of single target, just to kill something which doesn’t count towards trash percentage or boss hp
Before offering my solution, I would like to point out the design philosophy of explosive: “randomly spawning enemies that you need to quickly switch to (not aoe down)”
Solution: Instead of dozens of small orbs spawning randomly have a single big orb spawn with a long cast time which causes a wipe, still forcing players to swap to it, but also allowing some non-burst classes to have time to do some damage to it. In my opinion, it should also explode when killed, dealing damage equal to its max hp spread evenly among nearby enemies (preferably without breaking CC).

Grievous:

While I like the idea behind grievous, having a healer affix that punishes players for taking avoidable damage, it is way too strong paired with unavoidable periodic group damage (galvazzt, avatar of sethraliss, Unbound Abomination etc.)
The only solution i can see for this affix is that healing a certain amount of a player’s hp (f.e. 20%) should remove a stack.

Bolstering:

Bolstering is the biggest offender among affixes that prevent you from pulling trash the way you like. Take shrine of the storm for example: there are 2 mini-boss type mobs in the dungeon grouped with 4 very low hp non-elites, and trying to pull those mini-bosses with just about anything other than those 4 will cause in the whole group getting a massive hp buff.
Solution: make bolstering a damage only buff with a short duration, but increase its magnitude (f.e. 30% bonus dmg per stack, each stack lasts for 10-15 seconds).

Quaking:

While quaking is one of the easiest affixes at the level of keys most people do, the unavoidable damage it does can often cross into the 1-shot (or rather 2-shot in a quick succession) territory when paired with some abilities in high level dungeons.
I don’t have a good solution to quaking, so I’ll just leave it to the devs.

Teeming:

Teeming on its own is a well thought-out affix, but it should never be paired with fortified in my opinion.

Volcanic:

Volcanic is a non-existent affix and needs serious rework or complete removal.

Skittish:

I believe skittish was added to remind players of the “good old days” when you had to wait for the tank to build threat before attacking. While i would normally not mind that idea, such design has no place in content that is all about speed and efficiency. The degree to which it affects different dps classes/specs also varies a LOT (pet classes technically have 2 aggro tables, demo locks have dozens), and it is completely countered by hunters and rogues.

Bursting:

I firmly believe that bursting is the best designed affix in the game, because it’s controllable and really showcases the difference between good and great players.

9: Raging:

Personally, i find raging to be a well-designed affix, because it can be countered differently for each situation. It can be dispelled on big single mobs and kited or aoe-stunned on packs.

Necrotic:

I don’t like necrotic very much but it’s not as bad as most other affixes, and I don’t have any idea how it could be changed in a way that i would enjoy it.

Sanguine:

The only thing annoying about sanguine is the return of the “X runs away in fear” mechanic, otherwise it’s another controllable affix that rewards good play.

Fortified and Tyrannical:

While I’m not a big fan of these affixes, they proved to be far better with BFA’s dungeon design than they were in legion.

Infested:

What looked like a fun and interesting affix on paper turned out to be a snoozefest of CCing a few mobs, killing everything else and then killing those mobs. Nobody i know has been enjoying the affix this entire season and I’m fairly certain we’re all happy to see it gone.

Deekutar-darksorrow · January 10, 2019, 12:06am

M+ is mostly fine in my experience. Some small issues have cropped up, mostly that some bosses are way too skill & co-ordination intesive than others on some comps and affixes (second boss in Shrine for my group, with 3 ranged dps & druid healer, interrupt the boss how now?), or just do too much dmg like eudora powder shot putting out 140k dmg with 2 powdershots in a row on the same target (healer did not survive).

-Quaking is almost fine, it is predictable so we can play around it even if it makes the mages sad. Sometimes leads to a bit of an BS deaths when it lines up with an boss ability
-Bolstering is ok too except when it is elite mob surrounded by regular mobs if the elite cannot be slowed/cc’d, mass roots seem the only good way to deal with that and if you don’t have some form of mass CC it can become a s##tshow fast.
-Bursting is fine
-Explosive is doable but could use some toning down in specific cases, no good ideas sadly
-Grievous is really punishing, tuning it down wouldn’t go amiss and maybe end it after 4 or 5 seconds out of combat? (also waycrest manor 3 sisters with grievous is NOT fun)
-Necrotic is not in a bad place (BDK grumble grumble)
-Raging is fine.
-Sanguine is mostly fine, some dungeons are maybe a bit too cramped to place the pools nicely but oh well.
-Skittish is a bit of an “how fast can your tank press Taunt when the frost mage crits for 130k” but I don’t mind it, the mage was going to die anyway
-Teeming is fun in that it changes the pulls, it is not fun as it makes explosives, volcanoes and bolstering ect. much harder and it messes up the enemy feces calculations (though that is also on my team for not looking after it properly)
-Volcanic is fun when it makes a properly hectic fight underrot last boss was an “experince” last week but otherwise it is a bit lackluster you dont even need to move away from it most of the time

Infested was mixed bag, it did make for some fun times but just as often it was just a extra chore-like slowdown, freezetrap 1 mob, kill it by itself last/grip ghuun mob and root the rest, rinse and repeat

Adlian-twisting-nether · January 10, 2019, 12:19am

I really hate the switch between Tyrannical and Fortified every week. Fort makes the dungeon much, much more difficult when combined with other affixes that also buff the trash mobs.

Tyrannical and Fortified should be combined into a single affix (something like 20% boss HP and DMG, 15% HP and DMG on trash) that is being added on +2 and onward.

Another thing, why dont you let us pick the dungeon and the difficulty level instead of dealing with RNG keys and numbers? Just reuse the same system that Diablo 3 uses for Greater rifts.

Gené-ravencrest · January 10, 2019, 1:23am

There should be a bit better rewarding system, I like the fact that achievements were added, although a bit late, it should have been added from start to avoid frustration of having to rush in the end and avoiding having to redo some of the dungeons which were already done in the past, however Its one step forward and it was something I was looking forward for to push, but it would be nice to have rewards scattered from low to high level that people could push for, which could be title, pets, mounts, tmog sets much like what challenge mode used to have.

Difficulty gap is a bit too big between dungeons, there are dungeons which are too easy and there are dungeons which are too hard, they all should be placed in the middle ground where with smooth run you dont have only a few mins left and 1 wiping could potentionally fail timed instantly and you also dont have a dungeon where you can wipe multiple times and still getting done with it. Namely shrine of the storm and king rest feel a bit off and theres also a reason why freehold and atal’dazar are top favorite for running every week.

Shrine of the storm could use maybe 2 extra minutes or so, much like what underrot and tol dagor has received, the timer is very tight and the dungeon is very unforgiving on mistakes, +2-ing it is also close to impossible.

With Kings’ rest the problem is that its too linear, theres not much room for speeding up the dungeon as with any other dungeon, the mini boss room after first boss is insanely slow as an example and mass pulling is generally not possible. The scaling of tyrannical is also a bit off, i mean within the same level of dungeon why does council have 12 million hp all in all, while other bosses have approximately 8,5 mil, if it was a cleave boss i would understand but this way not so much, this hp difference leads to around 5 min of a fight when the timer of dungeon is already very tight.

Some affixes feel not very balanced in certain dungeons, sure it should be challenging, but i feel they shouldnt straight out block you from doing certain dungeons because it leads to too big of a difference than usual. Waycrest Manor comes into mind as an example, sanguine in those very thin hallways cause total chaos with mobs hitting like a truck and having not much space where you could kite, the puddle also lasts long on the ground so you can quickly get overwhelmed by the spammage of sanguine coming from maggots, with more of such mobs spawned from death of another mob, and they place even more sanguine on top of it.

Luck factor in dungeon shouldnt have a place, waycrest manor should have set doors open at all times, or maybe have it on a weekly rotation, but its a bit frustrating to have one run start with right door open and one with left door, providing a different path every single time you start the dungeon based on luck factor.

Some classes should be looked into, rogue for example in many dungeon became a must, due to how useful shroud is, saving pots and invisibility skips being used in many dungeons, they have very insane dps and good ccing ability aswell so theres no reason to not bring one over many other dps specs/classes.

Teeming fortified combo together shouldnt exist, this combo compared to any other affix combos cause the heaviest slow down and annoyance when doing a run, not just it places some insane packs to deal with for example motherlode before 3rd boss, but it also requires you to kill insane amount of trash which is also buffed by fortified and takes forever to kill.

Temple of sethraliss: Only thing that came to mind at the start of the dungeon is the marksman’s neurotoxin which sleeps on movement, i feel it was overnerfed because at the moment it lasts 4 sec only, and you can move quite bit before it could trigger, the nerf almost made the ability non existent, oh and also please fix the skip to last boss and use the debuff to pull and zerg whole dungeon exploit.

Entor-alexstrasza · January 10, 2019, 3:34am

I am contend with the way affixes and dungeons are balanced.

Shrine of the storm, the last Boss seems to have too much HP considering you reworked the debuff anderen favors specific healers
Its of course one of the more challenging Dungeons, and im Fond with not everything being Atal Dazar / Freehold

The timer from temple of sethralis ist a bit too easy since you basically shortened the last fight by 2min

I want basically Just one thing:
Remove shroud.

Even without shroud, rogues feel very mandantory for many people in skittish Werks.
Rogues bring a lot of utility (sap,blind) even without shroud, so removing it, should be ok.

Another thing I would like to adress are keystones.
I think it was good you removed Key deleting since pushing Keys was too easy by just rerolling Keys.

But there is something I would want to adress:
Leavers.
Its pretty rare but there are people who are grieving other people by leaving Keys.
And I think I have something to adress this a bit:

Have everyones key in a group deplete by -1 once they are inside an activated keystone, unless the dungeons is completed intime or out of time.
Once the Dungeon is completed everyones Key gets raised by+1 except the Key holderswho gets -1 or +1 depending on the timer.

This should make people think twice before leaving a Key.

Thats also an issue. Perhaps intime should make the Key Level stay the same, and only being a lot faster should give you a Key Upgrade.

But bottomline for me is:
remove shroud or at least remove the shared cd on invis pots

The other issue I have with season1 Ghuun affix was:
It was too hard.
Each new week learning the dungeons with new affixes and in top with new routes and pulls due to ghuuns placement was too much, even for a seasoned and experienced m+ player like me.

Challenging, but too hard and time consuming in my opinion

Edit:
Removing the shared pot CD on Invis pots wont work, because Player woul dstack shroud + invis pot.

Ulmeria-silvermoon · January 10, 2019, 5:59am

First of all, please fix the exploits and cheesy strats, because they’re ruining the idea of fair playing field.

Temple of Sethraliss exploit: clearing up to last boss on mythic0 and retaining the mega haste buff after starting the keystone.

Freehold exploit: you already fixed cheesing the infested to not spawn by tagging him through the barrier. What about the exploit allowing groups to skip pig catching or even the turtle miniboss.

Siege of Boralus exploit / cheese: being allowed to kill tentacles on the last boss with the spotter, bonus point for bolstering week buffing your spotter to kill stuff faster. Spotter was meant to help kill trash, but it wasn’t affecting big trash like horsemen. Why does it affect parts of a boss encounter then? That seems more serious mob than horsemen.

When you fix these exploits, then you can look into adjusting difficulty of these dungeons for people who don’t use exploits, so have it much harder now to complete them. For example an average group can easily get overran by multiple tentacles on the last boss in Siege, it takes so long to clean them up.

Another thing mentioned already is stuff pulling through solid walls and floors with azerite traits like laser matrix or frostwhelp indignation, or class abilities like special delivery, halo or frostwyrm fury. Makes dungeons like waycrest and tol dagor much more frustrating and unfriendly to specific classes that put your group at risk of ninjapulling through solid walls and wiping, so you rather not take them.

Hitbox of Aqua’sirr in Shrine is also way too big and you have to meticulously clear every trash in 40 yard radius before you pull the boss if you have a fire mage or similar class with uncontrollable cleave. Being able to pull Heldis miniboss from miles away is just silly.

Also I wish doing dungeons “the normal way” instead of shrouding, death-skipping or wall jumping around mobs was less punishing, these strats very often backfire in pugs, but when they’re deemed so much better than just killing the trash (due to that trash being overtuned or natural path through the dungeon severely overcapping your trash count %) it creates unnecessary drama.

Props to you for nerfing entry underrot trash, that was one good example of making clearing the trash more viable than “always skip”.

There are several “always skip” places especially in Atal’dazar, Freehold and Motherlode - I’d look into that trash and ask yourselves “why is everyone skipping it”?

Many other issues were already mentioned, for example high unavoidable damage that scaled indefinitely on high keys instead of capping at specific player hp %, things like spit gold on King’s Rest 1st boss. Haven’t we learnt anything from Legion tyrannical Hyrja and Lady Hatecoil?

Also in my personal opinion tyranical / fortified should be removed and some lesser version of it incorporated into basic keystone scaling. Otherwise things become impossible to balance, becoming either pushover without the corresponding affix, or to tedious to go through with the affix.

Stinea-aggramar · January 10, 2019, 8:30am

Agreed, or just make more mobs able to detect invisibility (more class design!!).

Jalisco-nazjatar · January 10, 2019, 8:33am

I disagree. I am a “hardcore-casual” and don’t want to play with dummies.

Rio is not perfect, but thats say more about the community than the game.

Lelaastars-stormscale · January 10, 2019, 8:54am

Hello Blizzard , first of all I want to thank you for this thread since I lost kinda faith in you. i am a loyal customer since I am playing WoW for 14y straight on EU and US.

Main issue with mythic+ is first of all raider .io and then lack of real rewards for completing high keys, when I say rewards I am pointing towards cosmetic rewards as well as server first titles and mounts, something similar as challenge modes. As a very exped player and someone who has completed well over 30k dungeons within my playtime I can assure you that there is legit no point in doing keys higher then +10, because you do not get anything special rewarding for it. On top of that the r.io addon which I boykot with my entire soul and will until it gets removed and you do implement a system ingame similar to it. For example you could solve All problems with just a feature like implementing m+ score ingame and cosmetic items as well as titles and mounts for the achieved score. Eg. On 2.5k m+ score you get full cosmetic gear and everyone can see that you actually worked hard to get it and pissed blood for it and that you actually well deserve it.

One also important thing is that You cant change specs and gear in dungeons which is really sumb and there is no min maxing when playing dungeons, people like choices and they like when yhey can determine in what situation they can pick something. On top of that the bl sated debuff is stupid since you dont loose it when you die( makes no logic to me).

3rd and last thing are the MDIs which are total utter stupidity since there is no special bracket for it and people which would like to compete for it but cant since they do not have gear and access to mythic raids and some of bis trinkets. What you need to do is make a bracket just for MDIs and make people pick gear which only works in that bracket something like tournament gear which would make the MDIs accessible to everyone and make the competition transaprent to everyone.

Also the keys itself are totally uncessary because a group of 5 people pushing keys can get a key which is hard for that week and in some specific situtations where they combo is bad for that dungeon. Now you can tell:” But you can take someones else key and push it fron the grp”. Yes you can untill all 5 of you get the same key and just quit playing for that week which is totally utterly dumb. Great solution to this is to make the pylon instead clickable and select what levle of the dungeon you want for example if you completed a +10 you can pick only 1 levle up or 3 below in that specific dungeon, grps woudnt be forced to look for replacements for mates which they play all m+ with.

Over and out

Jraxx-kazzak · January 10, 2019, 8:54am

from the start of the expansion me and my friends do mythic+ for fun in all of our alts and it is the only content in the game we do, because we play with the same people everyday the key reroll removel hit us very very hard, we ended up doing less keys, and the point i do not understand about the removel is why? the loot already has item level cap so only people who enjoy mythic+ will do above 10+, so limiting our ability to decide which dungeon we can play and enjoy is meaningless

Akemí-shadowsong · January 10, 2019, 10:02am

I still feel like Kings Rest is overtuned compared to other dungeons and this is reflected in the key levels completed compared with other dungeons. I would like to see more azerite power awarded from completing m+, not enough that we feel like we need to farm it but enough that it feels rewarding. It would also be good to look at key depletion after someone leaves the group. I don’t pug much for this reason, as I’ve known people to leave other groups and it then they have to either try and complete with 4 players or they lose their key level which seems unfair especially if they were on track to complete in time.

Gravemind-azjolnerub · January 10, 2019, 10:58am

A few things me and my friends run in to:

Boss-spawned adds spawning affixes (for example, the amount of volcanic spawned by the spores on the final boss of Underrot was ridiculous, and I dread to think of explosive)

Minibosses or extra hard trash packs right before the bosses. It makes sense to scale upwards in the progression bit, but this usually forces cooldowns and you end up pulling the boss without any defensives available.

Uncontrollable mobs like those in the final area of Motherlode are very annoying. Completely CC immune, no grips or knockbacks, and they jump around where they feel like and pull extra adds. No counterplay available feels like bad design.

As the game grew throughout the years, so did the environments. Ground targets did not, however. It is incredibly annoying seeing half a circle in the air, and the other half being hidden, when fighting on stairs. Range indications should always be visible, regardless of terrain.

Some walls arent as solid as they should be. We’ve pulled Jes Howlis through the bars as you walk into his area, before going all the way around. In Atal’Dazar, on the big boss with the ressurection totems, we skipped the trash pack and ended up pulling it through the closed gate later on.

Sometimes players get teleported, because the mobs lose pathing. Obviously a good way to deal with exploits to cheese fights, but I’ve also been teleported walking over a tiny ledge and being considered unreachable while in the air for a split second.

Like most others said, having a way to choose or direct a key would be great. I’d have loved to do all the +10’s in time achievement. We wont be making it for a few reasons, but one of them is that we have not had a King’s Rest key in months. It is very limiting to friend groups playing together.

The claustrophobic nature of some dungeons can sometimes get annoying too. Especially often having your back to a wall. Personally I find magical barriers the most annoying. See through, but they still clip your camera in close. Mostly a problem with things like quaking in Waycrest or such.

Lastly, thoughts on route planning. Planning ahead is simply required, deciding on the go costs too much time in a time pressured format. We are not provided with a proper dungeon map, with enemies and their % count and such. Now with reaping coming up more than ever, we’ll need to properly plan ahead a route and when we hit the 20% breakmarks. Blizzard has to stop making the playerbase rely on third party sources to be able to play the game. We NEED this accessible to do any sort of keys, or to practise for hours upon hours with random keys because we cant even control which we get.
I dislike having to get addons. But how are we supposed to get anything done without things like DBM, Method Dungeon Tool, WeakAuras and so on?

Tamanaotsu-shadowsong · January 10, 2019, 11:27am

Balance

Some dungeons are still over tuned by either short timers time and/or trash pack difficulty EG Kingsrest (when team are having to 3 to 4 levels lower on a key to time it it shows there something wrong.

Some Affixes have gone from the easiest affix bring anyone in legion to just avoid taking some classes, eg grievous with disc priest, for me I’d like to see affixes change up runs not make some runs impossible to time

I do like the tyrannical and fort coming in at 2 and the idea of the new seasonal affix but making none cc-able mobs infested really messed up another wise good affix but as its going soon I guess that’s ok as long as it is a lesson learned. I am worried about the very limited testing of the new season 2 affix as it only just gone live and I can see protentional issues already with the respawns pulling normal mobs that were skipped.

Rewards

Post +10 the rewards aren’t about the gear I can’t remember when I last got a piece that was an upgrade on my main monk from M+ and I run a at least 20 runs of m+ over 10 each week.

AP rewards don’t scale fairly I’m not a fan on DR on rewards so if that was removed and it scaled better it would be good but still not better than islands

Personally, I’d like to see 10 Titan Residuum from all +10 keys and above, (and on heroic and/or mythic raid content too)

The Big Issue

A fair amount of pugged key go unfinished and it is become a toxic environment for players I cant remember it being this bad in legion yes people left occasionally but it tended to be after x number of wipes in a bad group, I’ve tanked keys were people left because we had 12 mins left to do a 2 bosses with 100% in ML (turns out they needed a +2 on the ML14 to get a better R.io score)

I’m not saying R.io is bad heck I even look at people on there (please never just look at scores, look at what runs people are doing). As such I’m not saying it is R.io fault and blizzard should stop them accessing their API etc. like I have heard said.

If Blizzard give a stacking M+ Deserter debuff that lasted the whole of the reset or 48 hour (whichever is longer) to anyone that left during a M+ within the time. The debuff would have no negative character effects bar the community can know they left x number of runs that week. You could go one step further if they get the M+ Deserter debuff two weeks in a row it effects their weekly chest not sure about this last bit but I really like the 1st bit or something like it as I’ve stopped pugging my own keys as have most of my friends and guildmates.

Finally add a report option to report toxic behaviour as none of the current options fit (and have a human look at the reports please do not automate it as it easy to grief the system)

TLDR:- need to balance M+ better, rewards need increasing from +10 and above, add a penalty for leavers

Adamdh-tarren-mill · January 10, 2019, 11:35am

Please bring back the ability to delete / gain a new keystone. It feels so bad when me and the team get bad stones on a bad week. We end up benching one person from the group to get in a pug with a decent stone. Before we would just run a crappy key and all delete our bad ones. This often allowed us to run together for the rest of the week.

You also need to include some kind of reward for say doing everything at +15 in time. PVP has mounts for reaching a point, Mythic/Heroic raiding also to some extent (last boss dropping a mount or raid wide achievement) . All you get from m+ is a rubbish FoS that know one actually even seems to know exists.

As for balance… Well that needs a hell of allot of work. Some weeks (such as this one) are clearly much harder than the week prior. Allot of these affix’s are just not fun. The timers in Shine, Kings and Temple feel less forgiving than in the other dungeons.