Feedback: Rogues

In Development Midnight Beta Test
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This thread is dedicated to leaving feedback on Rogues in Midnight. Look in this thread and in the Midnight Alpha Development Notes for adjustments and bugfixes made throughout the testing period.

Please note that off-topic or inappropriate posts will be strictly removed.

Apex Talents

Many Apex Talents are available for playtesting and may be selected using specialization tree points in the final specialization tree node. The current User interface (UI) is temporary for playtesting purposes and will be replaced with a final UI later in development. As with any test cycle, we will be adding more Apex Talents to the test over time and not all will be available with the start of the alpha test.

To help us refine Apex Talents, please consider the following questions as you playtest:

  • How gameplay-impacting, exciting, and fantasy forward is your Apex Talent to you?
  • Are your Apex Talents and new Hero Talents meeting the approachability goals laid out in our Combat for Everyone in Midnight article?
  • Are there cases you would consider not selecting your Apex talent?
  • Does the Apex talent disproportionally favor a particular talent build or Hero Talent tree?

For feedback regarding the changes on making the combat system more approachable for players of all skill levels, leave your feedback in the Combat Approachability feedback thread.

Thank You

We greatly appreciate all your feedback and are very excited for you to test out all the changes in Midnight!

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Assassination

Assassination has seen numerous changes in Midnight to focus it on its core damage-over-time maintenance and Energy management gameplay. We’ve removed a number of special case ability uses from its rotation, such as applying Caustic Spatter with Mutilate, and reduced the number of abilities used in its cooldown windows. We’ve updated its AOE gameplay to remove the need to enter stealth to apply bleeds to multiple targets - you now periodically re-apply Garrote and Rupture and use the new Crimson Tempest to spread them to nearby enemies. There have been multiple updates to its Hero Talents as well to make them play well within Assassination’s rotation. We’ve also added an element of Energy management and timing. Assassination Rogues are deliberate fighters, and choosing when to spend Energy is an important part of their gameplay. There are strong new rewards for maintaining unbroken strings of Envenoms, so you’ll want to bank Energy then stretch every Envenom to its limit to keep the pressure on your targets.

Outlaw

Outlaw before Midnight could be a very demanding spec to play. The factors involved in when to cast Roll the Bones could be complex, performance relied on a lot on how long you could keep Adrenaline Rush going, and its shortened global cooldown could result in a high rate of actions per minute. In Midnight, we intend for Outlaw to be a very approachable rogue spec while still embodying its fantasy of a tricky, resourceful, sometimes underhanded fighter that is willing to roll the dice and take a chance. Roll the Bones now grants a single bonus of varying power, Outlaw no longer uses Vanish offensively, and Adrenaline Rush has a consistent duration but provides a bigger boost while active. Outlaw gameplay is based around building and spending combo points and managing your Energy, with several random bonuses that can trigger and change up your rotation. Crackshot has been removed, but talents enable Between the Eyes to reset its own cooldown and stack its bonus multiple times. We hope you enjoy taking up your blades and pistol and living the life of an Outlaw!

Subtlety

Coming into Midnight, Subtlety had a multitude of overlapping damage increases from cooldowns, conditional bonuses, and temporary effects that needed to be precisely aligned in unintuitive ways to produce good damage results. It overly punished players for getting it wrong, and even when getting it right it could make Subtlety’s rotational gameplay feel much more rigid than it should for a spec that is intended to give players flexibility and control over its cooldown-driven damage windows. Subtlety’s Midnight updates are focused on giving cooldowns and effects a clear purpose while also reducing the number of conditional effects that need to be tracked. This will better reward intuitive decisions and produce more reliable damage output and satisfying rotational gameplay. Additional changes are aimed at further improving approachability by reducing total rotational button count, culling unimportant buff icons, removing effects that punish downtime, and creating more value potential for historically-weak secondary stats Haste and Critical Strike.

Fatebound Hero Talents

Midnight’s changes to Fatebound are intended to make its benefits more reliable in different types of content. Fateful Ending’s “all or nothing” benefit that ended at the end of combat has been replaced. Several Fatebound talents didn’t scale well against multiple targets or trigger effects like Caustic Spatter. Those have been updated with new designs with more universal value.

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Can’t wait to see the additions to the Hero Talents. I haven’t played Rogue in 6 years because I lost all love for it in Shadowlands. I used to main it since 2010!

Playing it on the Alpha after struggling with Feral, this is the first time in 6 years I adore Rogue again.

As a casual player, I have no complaints right now. Good stuff.

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Hello,
Assassination rogue veteran player for 16 years straight, I want to talk about changes I’ve tested on Beta version 64339.

First I will talk about my experience at level 80, since we don’t have access to Apex talents yet, then I will come back to those talents later on.

Class Talent tree:

  • Class talent tree hasn’t received any significant changes, although there are some new talents added few weeks ago and we are still waiting to see them implemented, so I will not talk about them for now. Overall class tree looks fine, if we consider the Shadowheart “placeholder” (ignored for 2 years!!) will be replaced in the future build. The change to Cold Blood was somewhat expected and it is not a bad change, although little weak for a capstone talent, it could be a bit better if you add some additional effect to it, rather than just flat 10% crit increase.

  • The major objection I have in the class tree is against “Thistle Tea” capstone. This throw-back talent is bad in many ways. First one, its auto proc and you cannot control it. The second one, its too weak for a capstone, doesn’t take the fact that we have 250 energy and not 100, it serves more like a bandaid for a bad design of energy regen and it just simply doesn’t fit for the current game. I would rather see this talent completely gone and replaced by more fitting Relentless strikes passive as this capstone is almost exlusively used only by the Assassination spec.

  • Recuperator talent is bugged for 4 years!! already as it will always stop working in specific scenarios, and deserves complete overhaul or replacement.

  • Leeching poison should deserve some buffs as this talent is very weak. (Suggestion - Leeching poison also increases healing taken by 10%).

  • Stillshroud talent is another “never pick” talent, that has zero value for the gameplay and should be replaced.

Spec Talent tree:

  • Assassination tree has received many new changes and talent placements, but there are still few flaws I want to talk about, so lets take it step by step.

  • Deadly Poison - this talent is core part of the Assassination spec that is used in almost every scenario except PvP, where it is outperformed by Wound poison in every aspects, it is a complete waste of a talent point for no reason and because of this, Deadly poison should be made baseline for Assassination!

  • Venomous Wounds - this is another important must have talent, which I will talk about later on. What I don’t like is its current position in the tree. Leveling Assassination rogue in the last few expansions is extreme pain and boredom and one of the reasons is energy starving. If anything else, Venomous Wounds should be put at the very top of the tree, as it is core functionality of the spec, replacing Deadly Poison’s position which should be baseline at this point.

  • Doomblade - the only purpose i see for this, is the Lethal Dose talent, apart from it, its basically unimpactful and pointless talent in the tree. Also this talent should be part of Venomous Wounds and refund energy.

  • Internal Bleeding - Same as Doomblade, all bleed abilities should be part of Venomous Wounds with no exception to Internal Bleeding.

  • Lethal Dose - This talent was very important during DF and TWW providing minor damage boost, but after Deathmark change and removal of Serrated Bone Spike, this talent now falls behind and its rather underperforming. (suggestion - increase its damage to atleast 5%.)

  • Amplifying Poison - the position of this talent right now doesn’t make sense and should be moved somewhere else, as it locks you from picking up Avulsion. Also there are two scenarios in which you never want to pick this talent - Mythic+ dungeons and PvP, which makes it another wasted talent slot.(suggestion - move it aside of the tree as optional, or just swap its position with Avulsion.

  • Dashing Scoundrel - For a capstone, this talent is very weak and there absolutely no reason to pick this over Kingsbane, DTB or Sudden Demise. (For a suggestion here, Assassination rogue lacks of a proper execute ability, that could replace Mutilate spam during execution phases and for that reason I see two similar options: replace it with old “Dispatch” execute ability which will cost 30 energy and be usable only during execute phase. The second option is to use Ambush for the same purpose as this ability serves no other purpose in the spellbok. Ambush now deals nature damage, can be used without stealth at or below 35% of target’s health, costs 30 energy and has a chance to proc Blindside. This change would fit perfectly into the left side of the tree, synergizing with Blindside, Systemic Failure and Zoldyck, while also providing a strong option as a capstone talent.

  • Deathmark - What I still hate about this talent, its the only burst cooldown in the game, that forces you to go one target. In PvP it has also tons of counterplay in forms of short cd dispels and racials. Combining this with its very long cooldown make this ability one if not the worst spells in the game. (suggestion - make this talent undispellable and unable to be dodged or parried.)

Fatebound Talents:

  • Fatebound received many significant QoL changes in Midnight, while it also removes its randomness, it is clearly a go to hero talents for Midnight.

  • The only objection i have against Fatebound talents is the lack of defensive options. Compared with Deathstalker’s damage reduction to both CoS and Evasion, Fatebound provides only very weak heal which I believe must get some tuning prior to release, and Tempted Fate which is again a random chance to minor absorb 10% of damage taken. There is no synergy or direct impact with rogue’s core abilities which I found weird. (suggestion - replace chosen’s revelry with talent that reduces cooldown on Cloak of Shadows and / or Evasion by 15-30 seconds.)

  • Another thing I don’t understand is why Hand of Fate still deals “Cosmic Damage” instead of Nature or Shadow, which would make more sense from a fantasy standpoint.

Deathstalker Talents:

  • Now this is one of the biggest mess I’ve ever seen since its introduction in TWW. While in Midnight Deathstalker’s mark is finally available out of stealth through garrote, (After two years of complaints asking for this!!) the whole talent tree lacks creativity or synergy with any of the rogue abilities. Apart from flat rupture damage increase, there are also three different talents for some reason, that are only affecting only Fan of Knives and has absolutely no value or impact for Single target.

  • Unshakeable Drive - This talent that was formerly part of Deathstalker’s mark now replaces Fatal Intend, which was also very underperfoming, should consider that both mutilate and ambush are not a heavy hitters and only generators, and should provide way more damage increase.

  • Shroud of Night is another placeholder that is never picked, due to absolutely no value for any content. Increasing duration by 5 seconds, for a 6 minutes cooldown, that is almost never used, due to eyesights and stealth detection changes in dungeons and restrictions for rated PvP. It is just another waste of a talent spot and deserves to be replaced by something more impactful for a rogue class. (suggestion - change Shroud of Night to reduce cooldown of Vanish by 15 seconds.)

  • Singular Focus - this talent, while sadly still one of the strongest in the tree is still bugged and keeps you in combat forever, breaks your stealth, breaks your vanish, and even gives you combat when you die and release, in PvP it also breaks crowd control because it doesn’t ignore controlled targets and has unlimited range. Despite numerous bug reports and complaints over the years of TWW, this is still not changed. My suggestion ? - Wake up and fix this talent for sake of the players that are paying your salary.

Fatebound continues to be a go to spec for Raids, PvP and possibly Mythic+ in Midnight, While Deathstalker keeps to be a miserable failure of a talent tree, that should deserve overhaul or complete rework.

Assasination gameplay at level 80:

  • Since we cannot test Apex talents yet, which i believe will have a great impact on the class itself, I want to share my current impressions about Assassination gameplay without them.

  • Rotation - The major change in Midnight is the removal of need to restealth in able to spread your bleeds, which is for sure one of the greatest changes done to the spec. Another thing is that Shiv is no longer part of the rotation and again serves as the utility button, which is also a welcoming change. On the other side, the value of damage increase Shiv has provided should be compensated elsewhere, so I hope there will be more damage tuning before this goes to Live. I have also concerns about Ambush and its usefulness, since its no longer needed for Deathstalker. I personally think it would be great idea if we return Ambush as our old execution ability the “Old Dispatch” as I talked about earlier in my talents review.

  • Energy Regeneration - First thing I want to say, I’m not a fan of energy pooling as this gameplay throw-back should stay in the classic wow in my opinion. In the past, every class had to perform some form of resource management, but thats no longer true, so why assassination rogue should be the only one of the 38 specs to still have this form of handicap ?? While playing a class, what you want from it is to feel good to play, have fun with it of course do a good damage. The current state of Assassination at level 80 on Beta doesn’t give me any of that feelings. I have all the energy talents possible and once I’m out of Thistle tea, there comes the 3-4 seconds of downtime we all know from TWW on single target. The insane nerfs to Venomous Wounds, make the class energy starved even worse than before and the new Motivated Murderer talent doesn’t compensate it at all. Another thing is that in TWW you’re never starved of energy during AOE fight. But in Midnight you starve almost instantly. Again thanks to nerfs to Venomous Wounds, making the multibleed for energy having absolutely no value. I have 22% haste and it makes nearly no difference. What I understand that you want us to play around Apex talents to pool energy for Envenom and get energy regen from this gameplay. But here is the flaw: What if I don’t pick Apex talents ? Does it means my class is not playable without it ?

  • The Apex talents Flaw - I know there is like zero reasons to not pick those talents, but what if i do ? The class will just not work without it. You will be energy starved forever, your damage will suck, and the class will not be fun to play. Why instead of forcing us to play around pooling energy, why not give us the option to choose whether we want to play pooling minigame or not ? If the whole Assassination spec is designed to work only around Implacable talent, why it is so down in the tree or even optional ? Apex talents should be strong addition to your toolkit, but it shouldn’t be a mandatory in a way, that without them the class just doesn’t work. Neither Subtlety nor Outlaw has this issue with Apex talents and i believe other classes also.

  • Final Suggestion - I have one final suggestion related to gameplay and energy management, first thing is that Venomous Wounds needs to be drastically buffed. Its impact on AOE is undeniable and with its current state, the energy returns are simply not enough to keep the combat flow. Second thing was suggested earlier in my talents review and that is return of Relentless Strikes as replacement for Thistle Tea back to the assassination spec. With this talent, the class should still work even without Implacable.

Final Thoughs:

Since Shadowlands I don’t have a strong expectations, that another expansion will fix rogue class problems, but I never gave up my hope, that one day, I will have fun playing rogue again.

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Very well thought out post. I agree with everything. It is wild how many times Deathmark just gets parried, dodged, removed with racials etc.

I’ve also tried using Amplifying poison with Dragon-Tempered blades in PvP, since we’re now forced to take this talent, but it is sadly essentially useless. It feels very bad to have to invest a talent point in a poison you don´t use. And the same goes for Deadly Poison.

You don’t use Envenom that much in PvP content compared to PvE, so the Envenom-chaining that they’re going for seems pretty unlikely to regularly occur in PvP - atleast to the point that it feels impactful and fun. I fear this will make assassination quite energy starved in PvP and maybe M+ aswell.

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I don’t know much about rogues. It’s always been the class that has most frustrated me because I seriously wanted to play it so bad, as the aesthetic is amazing. I super love the concept but I absolutely hate being energy starved. I’m very much someone that likes pressing buttons on the GCD and with rogue that just didn’t work. Also I found survivability (for me) was terrible. Just with questing mobs, it could often be a race to see who died first.

Anyway I haven’t been able to test survivability yet but I had to essentially ‘run to the forums’ because I have made a lot of ‘this could be better’ posts recently, and so I thought it was also important to give props when I think there has been a really good change - I’m not energy starved!! I am super happy about that, and if it feels the same in Midnight I can see myself playing rogue a LOT more. Not something I expected to say (might have to rework my alt levelling plans).

I created a pre-made rogue which I understand doesn’t have very good gear and it felt really smooth to play. I could always hit buttons, I had options of what to press - it was great! Now I’m quite sure I wasn’t doing anything optimally but I’ve only ever been a ‘casual’ rogue enjoyer. For me it’s about how it feels, and especially at the moment as there’s no dps meter it’s hard to judge anything else. So it feeling good is a great first step!

Pre-TWW since Combat got reworked into Outlaw I always played that spec. But in TWW I switched to always playing Assassination. It felt better and I missed Fan of Knives. For Outlaw I do like the more simple Roll the Bones. I remember having to set up the tracker for the six buffs, and then memorise which pattern was good/bad so I knew if I had to reroll. I also like that I seem to get to press Between the Eyes and Pistol Shot a lot more than I remember because that’s always fun. Assassination is very DOT heavy which isn’t a bad thing by any means, it actually feels like it plays possibly the most similar to live out of all the classes/specs I have tried on beta. I think that’s good because it provides a real choice in terms of gameplay as both specs are playing well (not energy starved!!! seriously I can’t tell you how happy that makes me). The thing about DOTs is they keep working when you can’t actively attack the target. I can see myself maybe in Midnight situationally switching specs in delves or something to take advantage of that. Finally as somebody who finds mobility super important I love that rogues have got to keep the cool buttons.

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Hi! Small feedback for Outlaw specifically. Been playing combat/outlaw since Wrath and have stuck with the spec through it’s myriad changes over the years. Have to say the direction of Outlaw feels great in the beta - very much enjoy not having to use Vanish and it feels much kinder on my poor ancient 30-year old fingers :smiley: All-in-all, I think the spec is in a great place moving into Midnight - might finally be able to convince some guildies to give Outlaw a go!

Personally though, not a big fan of the tumbleweed upon using Between the Eyes. I know it’s a small thing and I’m sure some will like it but to me it feels a bit tacky and meme-y. Flavour is definitely subjective but I’d much prefer this kind of thing to be tied to a glyph or be in some ways optional - feels a bit clunky when you see tumbleweed roll by underwater, admittedly ignoring the fact I’m also firing off a flintlock :smiley:

But yep, it’s certainly not going to stop me enjoying the spec!

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One idea could be to create a bleed-centric build and one envenom build. One that really benefits from Apex talents and the envenom chaining they’re going for, and one “big bleeds” build that uses Venemous Wounds (buffed ofc).

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Subtlety-Rogue Feedback:

The current Subtlety Rogue changes are really newbie-friendly. It’s easy to understand which buttons to press in single-target and AoE situation.

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Subtlety-Rogue Feedback:
The pruning seems healthy for the spec and it feels a lot more fun than before and you can just start your burst pretty much whenever.
My only issue is Danse Macabre: it still makes you press Backstab/Gloomblade in Shadow Dance which I always found really awkward. Maybe make it apply to all Shadowstrikes during Shadow Dance and have the aoe abilities also hit in aoe with the lashes from Danse Macabre. Would make the aoe rotation a bit more exciting which has always been really bland and clear up the single target rotation.

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Hello, after testing both Outlaw and Subtlety with the latest build, it seems that even though there are steps in the right direction, there are quite a few pain points for both specs.

Class tree

The class tree was promised changes 4 or so weeks ago which were never implemented. It’s not clear whether you guys changed your mind or they are just not ready. Weak talents like Shadowheart, Rushed Setup, Unbreakable Stride should just be replaced. Maybe Recuperator too since it barely does anything (or at least buff it).

Other than that class tree is overall in a decent state, but I want to briefly touch on the Vanish capstone side. In TWW that part of the tree is used either by Outlaw because Crackshot is the only way to play, or by Assa for dungeons because it has several effects tied to stealth. In Midnight both of these interactions are gone. A 30% heal/6s on a 2 min cooldown is useless. The only spec which has something meaningful to gain from Subterfuge in Midnight is Subtlety, and for that reason its duration is down to 4s from 6s. Soothing Darkness, Subterfuge, and Without a Trace all need to be looked at. You cannot eliminate the majority of stealth interaction (a good thing imo) but leave these talents untouched.

Also, minor issue but consider removing the sound from Cold Blood. You can sometimes hear it proc 2-3 times in a couple seconds and it’s not a gameplay altering proc.

Fatebound tree

The changes to this tree have been great, better late than never I guess. Getting rid of its anti-funnel was a necessity. For Outlaw, I would reconsider what Overflowing Purse does. A 4% chance to proc 3 coins is not only boring, it will also happen very rarely for something that minimal.

Trickster tree

Trickster has seen a few good changes, but not all its pain points have been addressed:

  • Coup de Grace no longer requiring Fazed to give Flawless Form stacks is a good change
  • Doubling down on Fazed’s amp (from 5% to 8% with the new talents) is a bit weird when…
  • Unseen Blade (UB) still has a cd that cannot be tracked and resets randomly. Why? Consider making the aura which tracks its progress visible
  • Consider following the same solution as with Find Weakness and making Fazed a player buff instead. I don’t see why you solved it only for 1 case but not the other
  • Allowing Pistol Shot and Shuriken Storm to proc UB is very good. For Shuriken Storm UB is currently being applied to a random target. Make it apply to your target if it is hit by Shuriken Storm (otherwise random)
  • I am neutral to the changes to Flawless Form. Overlapping stacks with separate duration were hard to track, and I assume you made the change to make the effect less spiky which is fine
  • The double proc talent for UB is controversial because Escalating Blade is still capped at 4, and you will inevitably waste stacks by proccing past the maximum. It’s not fun losing Coup casts because you were unlucky with proccing double UB at 3

Outlaw

The spec has seen many changes compared to TWW and for the most part in a good direction. I did enjoy Crackshot gameplay and the AR minigame was fun… until you had to deal with fights with forced downtime and the spec was unplayable outside of AR. I think the spec has some major issues and some minor ones:

  • The spec tree’s shape and pathing is highly problematic imo
    • It has many minor dps talents that could be merged together (e.g., Expert Duelist and Improved Between the Eyes) which bloat the tree
    • You currently just completely skip over any utility points in AoE builds, and only pick 1 in ST. This is bad. In TWW you had the 3rd row with 1 mandatory point (Combat Potency) and utility nodes. Do something similar. Utility nodes shouldn’t compete with DPS increases and Outlaw already lost a lot of survivability with Float Like a Butterfly gone and possibly vers value dropping
    • Once we can choose utility talents again, take a look a our Grappling Hook. Why was the retraction speed changed from the hook talent? Slow hook feels very bad to play and didn’t need a nerf. Either increase the retraction speed baseline, or put it back in the talent
    • Keep it Rolling is very underwhelming with Count the Odds gone. Consider boosting the effect by also giving you a +1 stage on your current Roll the Bones
    • Hidden Opportunity was nerfed in like 3 different ways. Its energy economy feels noticeably worse than non-HO builds and with Crackshot/Subterfuge gone Ambush damage is only a tiny portion of your damage. Help HO/Audacity out in some way. It could be by making the Ambush cheaper, stronger, or making HO have 100% of your Opportunity chance instead of 80% (or a combination)
    • Preparation seems out of place, and doesn’t allow the flexibility of a second AR charge as other people have already echoed
    • Heavy Hitter and Ace Up Your Sleeve being 2 pointers and placed where they are completely ruins pathing. Furthermore, Ace’s combo point refund (2/4) feels trash, and there is a high chance we will only be able to afford 1 point in it, making it even more cursed. Please make these 2 talents 1-pointers and buff Ace to return 5+ CP on proc. Chain BtE casts are very fun and having to press a builder in between ruins the feeling
    • Deft Maneuvers increasing BF’s cost makes little sense. Even in TWW it was never worth it to press it below 4 targets. Now we have to press BF to maintain it (due to the removal of Underhanded Upper Hand) but it also costs 45 energy instead of 15. The talent will end up being a DPS loss on low targets which is just crazy
    • Killing Spree still has the issues which were expressed in 11.2’s rework except now it also hits less hard. At least make it hit your current target and not a random one. Our strongest finisher hitting random targets make it feel punishing when you want a target to die fast. It should be the other way around
    • Fast Action is kind of boring for a capstone, yet it seems very likely it will be our best one unless we see changes. Regardless, I would prefer it was something more interesting
  • Energy doesn’t feel great. Once you’ve spent your Thistle Tea charges (I don’t want to imagine how the spec plays without it) you will have many points during which you will wait for energy just to press things
    • You did this on purpose by nerfing Combat Potency to almost half the effect (30%→16%), Fatal Flourish to 40% of what it was (50% for 10 energy to 25% for 8 energy) which is baffling to be honest. Flickering Steel which you’ve added is yet another energy RNG proc which you might not get leading to be energy starved. Fatebound also has access to another energy talent while Trickster is sticking to thoughts and prayers
    • Energy should feel better overall (that’s tweakable) and less RNG, not more like you did! just make Fatal Flourish always proc on offhand attacks and adjust the energy gain appropriately
    • HO build seem way more impacted by bad energy moments. My guess is that’s because you removed Ambush’s double strike (and therefore you need to build more) and you get lower Opportunity proc %
    • Energy in AoE will only become worse with the nerf to Deft Maneuvers
    • Even with Adrenaline Rush you will sometimes struggle to end up energy positive after 15s of +75%. AR should be a moment where your energy recovers
  • One of your goals this expansion is to make the game easier to understand, yet we still have information which is hidden from the player. Why is there a haste tax for AR at all, and why is it not even mentioned in game? Think of another way to make haste good. Having to adjust your gear because you lose or gained haste is horrible and completely against modern WoW design. We don’t have hit/expertise caps anymore, why do we have to deal with strict breakpoints?
    • Speaking of hidden information, why are RtB’s chances not listed anywhere in game? Why do players have to test what the chances are when you already have the information and can provide it? This applies to Sleight of Hand too which did something completely unexpected in TWW, and probably still does in Midnight. For the love of god provide that information ingame. Make the game easier to understand as you promised

To conclude on Outlaw, there are many good pieces and changes but it’s still not anywhere near where it should be. I don’t think it needs major rework, but still needs some work if you want the spec to feel complete.

Subtlety

Sub is a spec with a lot of baggage in TWW, and in part I think it pushed people away. Not only did it have a very extreme damage profile, some mechanics were overcomplicated (not difficult) for no reason. With the latest build (64499) it was nice to see some drastic changes. It doesn’t feel quite there yet, but it does feel better.

  • The spec tree has some nodes which don’t feel like they belong anymore and that has been the case in TWW too. Stuff like Gloomblade, Goremaw’s, Lingering Shadow don’t really do much especially for where they are placed in the tree (for two of them partly because Backstab is by design doing nothing). Even the new Dark Brew increasing poison proc chance seems completely out of place for a spec that does basically nothing with poisons.
    • There are still 3 talents in Deathstalker which are tied to Rupture or Symbols of Death so we’ll have to see, but Deathstalker being weird with Darkest Night and Black Powder needs to be looked at
    • There is also a bit of an anti-synergy between Quietus Celeris (QC) and Mass Casualty. If a stack of Deathstalker’s Mark is instantly consumed by QC, it will not splash through Mass Casualty because it requires to be procced by Black Powder. Assassination doesn’t have this issue since the talent is not tied to any finisher, but a debuff instead (Rupture)
    • As already mentioned above, Shuriken Storm applies Unseen Blade to a random target when it should be your current one if it is in range
    • Master of Shadows would be a bit better if it gave the energy (or part of it) instantly like Symbols of Death used to do. E.g., it could be 15 energy instant and 30 over 3s. Energy for dances only seems to matter when you enter it anyway, you get a lot of energy during it
    • Maybe that’s intended but Shrouded in Darkness is way less accessible. And shroud isn’t a strong button in m+ anymore so it feels unnecessary
  • The gameplay feels a bit… too simple. There is barely anything going on and it’s mostly 2 buttons. In TWW sub had some (unwanted) complexity from gimmicks. With the gimmicks gone (and thanks for that) it needs something to make the gameplay loop a bit more engaging. Some kind of proc that makes you switch things up now and then would be welcome (Ancient Arts doesn’t really do that and it’s also bugged right now with Shadow Blades giving you combo points after Shadow Techniques have been consumed. It should be Shadow Blades combo points having priority)
  • Secret Technique doesn’t feel great
    • There are fewer things to amp it making it feel less of a big button
    • The hastened cooldown makes things weird because you need 25% haste (same as outlaw and I can’t think this is a coincidence) for it to match Shadow Dance’s cooldown
    • I think the active CDR based on combo points worked way better for Secret Technique and I would ask you to consider reverting it to that (and adjust the base CD accordingly). In TWW with a cp based CDR mechanic you would get more sectec casts when it mattered the most (in dances/shadow blades). This is no longer possible and it honestly feels less fun. As an example you can no longer send two sectec casts during blades with the new cooldown

To conclude regarding Subtlety, similar to Outlaw there are good changes but it doesn’t feel very complete. However, Sub also feels a bit overpruned. Add something to make it more engaging in a non-gimmicky way.

15

Sublety:

For me most of the changes are ok and good. But the rotation feels overpruned. To merge symbols of death and shadow dance for me was a very good desicion. But to also cut rupture goes to far.
Imho you should bring back rupture to make the rotation a little bit less “one dimensional”.

1 Like
16

I personally really like the Sub changes. I do only PvP though, so it might be uninteresting for PvE.

I also agree with @Aleaga that it is a bit odd that danse macabre requires you to use different builders.

17

Outlaw feedback.

  • Energy regen is abysmal. Outlaw should NEVER EVER care about the energy and should not even consider talenting into bottomleft class tree talents for energy. It should only be focused on turbo-ADHD procs management and proper Restless Blades cooldown reduction
  • Deadly Pursuit is useless. 200% ain’t cutting it. Downtime still murders Outlaw. Less of an issue in the raids, but 90+% of m+ tanks never properly chain packs. Having base duration for Blade Flurry increased and stop it from ticking outside of combat could help, idk. Feels super bad to go into a new pack and waste several globals until we can press Blade Flurry.
  • It’s nice to see Vanish removed from the rotation
  • BtE reset should be a bit “normalized” and not be pure RNG. Every single GCD matters for the Outlaw, especially given tierset focusing on Blade Rush. We no longer have a luxury of BtE spam, given we need to actually maintain Blade Flurry, maintain Roll the Bones and also send Blade Rush on CD.
  • Deathstalker seems to be completely dead for Outlaw. No idea how to fix it.

// edit:

  • Way to many 2 talent nodes. I couldn’t find a way to make a proper HO build. Preparation seems too strong. Also, it means we don’t spec into Killing Spree as it’s a DPS loss at the moment. Nor we pick KiR. We need to actually nuke most 2

I’m not the best outlaw player, but I wasn’t able to squeeze more than 130k sustained dps on 5 target dummies. Meanwhile, BDK presses blood boil on CD and gets 200k+ dps. Kinda crazy.

18

Feedback Subtlety-Rogue:

The current version of Subtlety Rogue feels nailed in terms of gameplay: simple, fluid and fun.

However, there is room for optional playstyle diverstiy, especially around talents that shape damage identity.

Reintroduce Rapture as an optional talent. Position it as a choice node with Secret Technique (After Shadow Blades). This allows players to opt for DOT/Bleed-oriented playstyle instead of burst AoE.

Add Hemorrhage as an optional Talent, replacing Backstab. Talent choice node: Gloomblade ← → Hemorrhage.

Hemorrhage design: Instant strike dealing x% AP. Applies a bleed qual to a portion of the direkt damage dealt. Critical strikes apply fiend weakness for 10 sec. This preserves Subtlety’s shadow/bleed hybrid fantasy.

Add an Optional Talent - old Dark Brew - Converst bleed damage into Shadow damage.

To spread bleed in AoE: Make a choice node: Silent Storm ← → Bleeding Storm. Shuriken Storm spreads active Rapture DoTs to all enemies. This provies AoE scaling for the bleed/rapture playstyle.

This adds optional playstyles without forcing changes on players who enjoy the current design. The rotation remains the same; only the damage identity shifts depending on talent choices.Players can choose between burst shadow damage or sustained bleed/DoT pressure. Hemorrhage and Rapture keeps the unique shadow-bleed fantasy.

19
Summary

TL;DR – Subtlety Has Lost Its Identity, Its Excitement, and Its Fantasy

I’m not asking for Rupture back, and I’m not asking for stun-lock cheese to return. I’m asking for something far more important: for Subtlety to feel like Subtlety again.

Right now in Midnight, the spec plays like a primitive generator–spender loop with percentage modifiers layered on top. It has smoother numbers but less soul. The fantasy of precision, preparation, stalking, manipulating a target, and striking at the perfect moment has been hollowed out and replaced with flat rotation flow, energy frustration, and talents that don’t change how we think, only how hard we hit.

Subtlety should be the clever melee spec — the one that rewards timing, anticipation, and intentional execution. Instead, it currently feels like a purple-colored version of a generic DPS template. The removal of Rupture was the right call, but nothing meaningful has been added to replace the depth and identity that used to define the spec.

Subtlety doesn’t need nostalgia. It needs gameplay that delivers tension, payoff, uniqueness, and the emotional high that made the spec legendary. Until that happens, the Midnight iteration will feel mechanically functional, but spiritually empty.

Midnight Subtlety Rogue Feedback – Identity, Flow, and the Missing Fantasy

I have been playing Subtlety long enough to remember when the spec felt both brilliant and degenerate at the same time. Midnight clearly pushes Sub in a new direction, and I genuinely agree with several of the goals – but right now the spec feels like it has lost too much of what made it unique, exciting, and satisfying to play.

This feedback is not about going back to Rupture or stun-lock gameplay. It’s about identity, emotional payoff, pacing, and the fantasy that defined Subtlety for decades.

Rupture Removal – The Right Call, for the Right Reason

I’m extremely happy that Rupture has been removed from Subtlety.

  • Assassination already owns the DoT/bleed identity.
  • Subtlety should be up-front burst, surgical execution, and precision.
  • A second DoT rogue was never a healthy direction.

So this change was correct thematically and mechanically. Please don’t walk it back.

Slice and Dice – Outlaw Flavor, Not Subtlety’s

Slice and Dice feels completely out of place in Subtlety’s kit.

  • It belongs to Outlaw’s swashbuckler tempo fantasy.
  • For Sub, it adds no excitement, no tension, no decision-making.
  • With passive maintenance, it becomes a background buff with no purpose.

For Subtlety, it would be better as a fully passive effect, allowing design space for mechanics that actually reinforce stealth, precision, and ambush themes.

The Lost Rogue Fantasy – Outsmarting, Not Just Out-DPSing

Historically, the rogue fantasy — especially for Subtlety — was built on:

  • sneaking,
  • stealing with Pick Pocket while a mob was sapped,
  • controlling and dismantling a target because you were fragile and had to use cunning.

The emotional feeling was:
“I manipulated this enemy and outsmarted it.”

At the same time, I recognize that:

  • perma-stunlock PvP was degenerate,
  • it often meant low damage and frustrating gameplay for others,
  • it isn’t sustainable today.

So I support the modern direction where:

  • Rogue is primarily a damage dealer,
  • stuns exist but are limited,
  • Blind and Smoke Bomb remain tactical tools instead of lock-down tools.

However, in this transition, Sub lost a core piece of its soul. The feeling of manipulating a target — in both PvP and PvE — is dramatically weaker in Midnight.

Right now, Sub feels like:

  • “generate → spend → repeat”

instead of:

  • “set up → choose the moment → execute perfectly”.

Rotation Feel – Too Flat, Too Primitive, Missing Dopamine

In Midnight, the rotation lacks emotional peaks:

  • very few spikes of complexity,
  • very few moments of payoff,
  • very few micro-decisions that reward clever timing.

The highs and lows are currently tied to energy, which feels bad:

  • overcap feels like wasted agency,
  • starvation feels like being told not to play.

Sub should feel sharp, precise, dangerous — not stalled or spammy.

Talent and Apex Design – Too Many Numbers, Not Enough Identity

Many of the new talents read like:

  • % modifiers,
  • extra combo points,
  • reduced energy cost.

Once simplified, most of them don’t change gameplay at all — they just inflate or deflate numbers. That creates three problems:

  • they don’t add fantasy,
  • they don’t add decision-making,
  • they don’t add emotional payoff.

Sub right now has too many math knobs and not enough identity knobs.

Resource Flow – Highs and Lows in the Wrong Place

I understand the intent behind pacing, but energy starvation isn’t the right form of “downbeat”. It doesn’t create tension — it creates boredom.

A better pacing model for Sub would be:

  • longer combo point buildups,
  • heavier, more satisfying finishers,
  • intentional waves rather than constant ping-pong.

A More Exciting Rhythm – Combo Point Waves

Imagine Subtlety with:

  • a higher combo point cap,
  • longer setup windows,
  • devastating payoffs.

This would:

  • create anticipation,
  • reward planning,
  • differentiate Sub from other melee specs,
  • reinforce the surgical execution fantasy.

This also opens the door for a modern, non-punishing echo of the old positional flavor — rewarding smart engagement without strict back-only requirements.

Fantasy-Driven Mechanics – Examples of the Correct Design Direction

These examples fit Subtlety’s identity far better than another passive +X% modifier. They reinforce timing, deception, opportunity, and the emotional payoff of striking when the moment is right. They are illustrations of fantasy and feel — not full rotation solutions. Subtlety still needs a core rotational mechanic that delivers the same sense of anticipation and payoff during continuous combat flow.

Stalk

Passive
While in Stealth, every 1 sec you remain within 20 yards of a hostile target grants Stalk, increasing your critical strike chance against that target by 5%, stacking up to 5 times. Stalk lasts 12 sec after you leave Stealth and is consumed when you critically strike that target with a finishing move.

Why it fits Subtlety:
It creates anticipation before the opener and rewards choosing the moment instead of rushing into combat.

Cunning Shadows

Passive
Damaging a target that is not targeting you grants Cunning Shadows for 6 sec, causing your next finisher to critically strike and deal 40% increased damage.
Cunning Shadows cannot occur more than once every 20 sec.

Why it fits Subtlety:
It rewards striking while unnoticed and turns timing into a meaningful burst moment.

Shadow Slip

Replaces Shadowstep
Instant • 20 sec cooldown • 25 yd range
Dissolve into shadow and reappear up to 25 yards ahead, ignoring line of sight and physical barriers. Leaves behind a shadow decoy for 2 sec that can be targeted and attacked. Does not require a target.

Why it fits Subtlety:
Movement becomes deception, letting the rogue reposition, mislead, and strike from impossible angles.

Bribe

Instant • 30 sec cooldown • Requires Melee Range • Humanoid targets only
Slip a concealed payment to a humanoid enemy, causing it to surrender any personal valuables and Feign Death for 60 sec. Damage taken breaks the effect.
A target can only be affected by Bribe once. Can be used while in combat. Replaces Pick Pocket.

Why it fits Subtlety:
It restores the outsmarting fantasy and gives Subtlety manipulation instead of more damage nodes.

Locked In

25 Energy • Melee Range • 45 sec cooldown
Lash onto the target with binding shadow threads, locking yourself to them for 6 sec. While Locked In, the target cannot disengage, charge, teleport, or use movement abilities to escape you.
Breaks if either player becomes immune or stealthed.

Why it fits Subtlety:
It creates intentional commitment and tension without returning to stun-lock gameplay. Could sit as a PvP talent.

Glint

Replaces Feint
20 Energy • Instant • 25 sec cooldown
Tilt your dagger to catch and redirect a sharp glint of light, blinding enemies that are targeting you for 3 sec. While blinded, their attacks against you deal 50% less damage, and any crowd control or harmful effects they apply to you have their duration reduced by 50% and their secondary effects reduced by 50%.

Why it fits Subtlety:
It turns defense into a clever moment of precision instead of mitigation through toughness.

These are not rotation builders — and Subtlety still needs a rotational pillar that reinforces the same fantasy during active combat. The point is to demonstrate what creates:

• identity
• tension
• payoff
• fun

Subtlety should not play like a Warrior sprinting from target to target.
It should feel like the predator that waits, watches, and strikes at the perfect moment.

Summary

What’s working:

  • :white_check_mark: Removing Rupture from Subtlety.
  • :white_check_mark: Moving away from DoT gameplay.
  • :white_check_mark: Ending stun-lock degeneracy.
  • :white_check_mark: Keeping tactical CC like Blind and Smoke Bomb.

What’s missing:

  • :cross_mark: Rotation feels primitive and flat.
  • :cross_mark: Too many passive numerical talents.
  • :cross_mark: Energy pacing creates frustration, not drama.
  • :cross_mark: Loss of the manipulation/precision fantasy.
  • :cross_mark: No unique emotional rhythm or payoff moments.
  • :cross_mark: Sub feels like a purple-themed generator/spender instead of the clever melee spec.

What Subtlety needs most:

  • :star: Mechanics that create anticipation and payoff.
  • :star: A rhythm built around combo point waves, not energy starvation.
  • :star: Talents that change how you approach a fight, not just how hard you hit.
  • :star: A modern expression of stalking, planning, exploiting weakness, and striking at the perfect moment.

When anticipation disappears, Subtlety stops being fun, because its joy has always come from the nuance, timing, and intention behind the strike.

20

I can’t help but ask why we are still using the same Poison application from Cataclysm.

Could we have Poisons as some sort of aura? Apply once and forget about it? It’s a bit weird to have to reapply them every hour. (And it’s hard to track too, I use a weakaura for that, which is… another problem in Midnight)

Like I understand it for raid buffs since it applies to the entire group and falls off when someone dies so you rebuff a lot anyways, but poisons are personal AND have a cast time.

On top of that, it would free up another keybind or 2 if we don’t have to reapply poisons.

Please consider it. The current design is very outdated.

21

Subtlety & Assassination PvP

I’ve dueled extensively on the beta to get a feel for the rogue changes.

Subtlety

Sub feels great in PvP after the changes that was made to it last week. I will definitively play this way more then I have in the past. The loss of Rupture vs stealthies takes some getting used to, but the opener and burst rotation feels smoother and more straightforward.

  • Gloumblade - This should just be baseline. Backstab is just a boring spell, and doesn’t really fit sub thematically anymore.
  • Danse Macabre - I really like the idea of Danse Macabre, but is it a bit odd that it in theory encourages you to use other builders other than Shadowstrike to proc it.

The changes to Shadow dance feels great. It makes the spec really enjoyable, so I’m having a ton of fun.

Assassination

Assassination is probably undertuned (especially bleeds) so disregarding that, here is some feedback:

  • Amplifying Poison - Placement of Amplifying Poison talent. Suggestion: move it down one space so we’re not forced to take it. I don’t see the scenario where this poison would be picked above Wound Poison. Even if we went Dragon-Tempered Blades, I’m not so sure we would pick it in PvP then either, because of how difficult it is to stack up in PvP.
  • Cheap Shot - The changes to Cheap Shot feels bad. The setup time for assassination is long enough as is, so losing access to the second cheap shot really hurts in the opener. I believe giving this spec access to another charge of cheap shot would make it feel a lot better.
  • Deathmark & Kingsbane - Both major cds can be dodged / parried. This is an issue that has been amplified further by losing access to the second cheap shot in the opener. Playing vs most melee classes these buttons has to be saved for when the target is CC’ed because the likelyhood of them parrying or dodging because of various spells(like Blade Dance) is quite high. To my knowledge no other class has this issue that their big cooldowns can be dodged. Deathmark especially because of its long cooldown should not be dodgable/parryable, atleast the CD should be refunded if it is dodged.
  • Dashing Scoundrel - I don’t see why anyone would pick this. Seems very undertuned, and I also don’t get the whole leaning into poison damage component. Poisons don’t do nearly enough damage to feel impactful, atleast not in PvP.
  • Shiv - Im honestly a bit sad to see Shiv go as a part of our rotation. It felt good to be able to amp up our bleeds further, and also the fact that it did quite a lot of damage was fun. Also aoe spreading Hemotoxin was cool.
  • Kingsbane + Implacable - I really like that you kept Kingsbane as a “burst” cooldown. Feels good to have something that actually does some damage right away.
  • Energy regen + Implacable - Assassination cannot consistently stack the refund part via Envenom from Implacable in PvP, because you need the combo points for Kidney Shot, Rupture on another target etc, so you end up feeling quite energy starved.
  • Tankiness - As you described assassination in your post as a “deliberate fighter”, it does feel quite odd that Subtlety seems quite a bit tankier then Assassination currently. It might be Fade to Nothing talent for Sub that makes it so, but I’m not sure.
  • PvP Talents - Like all other specs assassination has some PvP talents that don’t see any use. My suggestion is to make the aoe Garrote-silence component of Indiscriminate Carnage a PvP talent, so assassination doesn’t lose their teamfight-value in Battleground Blitz.
  • Thistle Tea - This spell as mentioned before by others is not particularly well liked in the rogue community, and now that it has lost it’s mastery component it also lost the fun thing about it. Some other form of energy regen would be nice to replace this.
1 Like
22

Outlaw feedback:

first I want to point to the most important parts that are the real deal breakers as a player who just tested the spec:

  • Some of the talents should be baseline like Combat Potency or Combat Stamina and Utility talents shouldn’t be a choice with damage talents
  • Killing Spree should always prefer your Target and it’s cast time should be cut in half during AR and have a CC immune attached to it for PvP
  • Some of the capstone talents don’t feel like capstones and are dead
  • You have take all of the Energy regen talents in order to play smoothly (in a combat scenario the player spams Feint and Crimson Vial) which is a problem and the extra Vanish talent is fully dead
  • Please remove the cowboy themed effects and lean towards a Combat rogue
  • Outlaw is Horrible vs slows and roots with the death of frequent Vanishes this spec needs a new way to deal with snares

And this is basically my Wishlist for the spec:

  • Please remove the Hard cap on Blade flurry or think of something for Big AoE situations it feels horrible to do Tank damage in big packs
  • I would like to see Outlaw having an exclusive form of CC like Garrote or Defensive (used to be Gouge before DF)
  • Buff Sprint to remove roots and snares on activation
  • Make Heavy Hitter and Ace Up Your Sleeve 1 point to help with Pathing
  • Make Killing Spree just do more damage or reduce it’s cooldown and detach it from the Trickster. I feel like the spec needs a hard hitting and frequent ability like Killing Sprees
23

More Outlaw feedback.

Managed to squeeze 140k sustained dps on 5 targets. Still feels horrible. Feels like spec is going into a completely new direction, abandoning it’s old good idea: reward more skilled players. Now it does the opposite. It provides tools for ret mains to play outlaw at the same level as seasoned outlaw mains.

Talent build: CQQADgyaPYSYfYgRr4L7orE0bDgxyMMzMDzwMzMmZGbbmZGbTLw2MAAAAAgZbbmZmZmZGzYmlZZAAAAYGAYMbGGyAzCL0CbAYmBzMA - i had to opt into energy talents and it still energy starving. It’s sad.

My tears list for outlaw:

  • Apex Talents reward unskilled gameplay by “overcapping combo points to use them later”. ALLO? THAT’S THE IDEA OF COMBO POINTS, TO NEVER EVER OVERCAP THEM.
  • melee attacks do a bit too much, but i saw other classes also have it. feels wierd but whatever
  • blade rush is by far the best dps button in current tuning when it’s supposed to be pressed for gap close or when (if ever) low on energy
  • between the eyes dealing same damage as instant poison in current tuning
  • RTB being on GCD is an absolute crime. Should be off gcd and should not incur GCD, period.
  • Blade Flurry has never been harder to maintain until this beta
  • Energy regen is still bad even with dropping RTB talents in favor of energy talents, when Outlaw shouldn’t even think about the energy
  • BTE reset is a questionable idea of adding some spice to gameplay. We had nearly perfect Outlaw in DF s1, until it was nerfed into the ground. Would rather get that RTB rotation logic where rotation would depend on the current buff, like send Pistol Shot at specific combo points if a certain RTB buff is up or Dispatch at one combo point less if a certain RTB buff is up
  • Can barely pick capstone talents. Why do we have several talents about Blade Flurry? We either pick all of them or none, depending on target count.
1 Like