Feedback Story Writing: Stop making Characters flat with lazy writing!

In Development Midnight Beta Test
1

By mere coincidence I went to the r/WoW subreddit and did see this thread being trending atm there.

Thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1oylzjy/the_homogenization_disaster_modern_wow_andor/

As a summary, this thread points out that Lady Liadrin is, similar to Alexstraza in Dragonflight, being written as oblivious and “unknowing”, despite their age and history in the franchises past. Which doesn’t make sense in the Blood Elves case because most elves alive did live through those harsh times between them and the Amani to begin with.

In Dragonflight, Alexstraza was written in a quest chain as oblivious towards worker rights and slavery, despite her herself being enslaved by the Orcs of the Dragonmaw clan during the 2nd War herself.

Now, in Midnight, Lady Liadrin seemingly “never questioned racial and cultural differences between different troll tribes”, despite BEING LITERALLY ALLIED WITH DARKSPEARS AND ZANDALARI through the Horde AS SAME AS FIGHTING TROLLS FOR QUITE SOME TIME AS A RACE.

This is unacceptable, demeaning and ultimately quite layman-like writing. I’m not going to assume that this was that much looked at by Chris Metzen, because writing like that isn’t his style to my knowledge.

I’m going to assume this was written by a blue-haired twitter activist that was hired as a writer. At least that is how it reads in this weird, self-irony type of writing.

Edit: Most people on reddit even suspect it’s AI written.

Whoever that is should rework the writing there and also get some classes in proper writing as a job schooling, Blizzard. No character with more than 50 years on their lifespan talks or acts like that, especially in such a history-rich culture as the Blood/Highelfs. Every average Roleplayer would probably write better than this. And to show this even, here, let me re-write that quest text without changing the topic (which is anti-racism and cultural understanding):

Old Quest text

"As we travel with Zul’jarra, I find that my assumptions concerning the Amani are being… challenged.

For one, I did not realize each tribe had a distinctive, separate identity with a separate ruling class. And that they are called “Amani” because that was the original tribal name and the name of the ruling tribe.

I also did not know that while they all worship more than one loa, that each tribe has a loa associated with it–
Akil’zon for the Amani and Halazzi for the Witherbark.

Or, I guess I am assuming the Shadowpine and the Revantusk are the same. I suppose I will see."

New Quest text (by me)

"The more we travel with Zul’jarra, the more I am reminded again how different the Amani are.

Once long ago I believed them to be mere savages, nothing more than keen on killing my people out of pure hatred.
But over the centuries I learned that their culture, their worship of Loas and the way they lead their people do vary from tribe to tribe. And that they did hate us for a valid reason. After all, we settled in their lands.

They are more different than they appear to be at first glance. And I am glad I could see that difference after some time. Even if grudges remain.

The Darkspears and Zandalari among the Horde are good allies and not at all as the Trolls we fought in our history.

Perhaps Zul’jarra and her tribe can be that as well."

She could say the things I left out (such as the specific Loas) as voice lines instead during their traveling or in a “stand a while and listen”. Because that “extended lore” isn’t interesting to every player.

Edit: Regarding the lore dumping, these comments point the flaw out quite good…

From u/SolemnDemise

The obvious issue here is that this dialogue is better suited for Salandria than Liadrin. It’s written like a person on study abroad giving a recap of their first two weeks which is something you expect of a young person traveling and learning, not an experienced diplomat and spiritual warrior of several thousand years that has engaged with the Zandalari for the past half-decade at minimum.

From u/DanielMattiaWriter

One of the big narrative issues is that every lore dump we get is treated as if it’s just been discovered then and there because we’re just showing up. It’s like the world around us, as the player characters, doesn’t exist until the moment we arrive.

From u/Naeii

It’s, depressingly, for the OOC reason that Blizzard is ALWAYS chasing a mystical new playerbase that will magically double their numbers.

Every bit of story, or writing, or event, has to be accessible to a 20 year vet as it is to a player who picked up the game 20 minutes ago, because they don’t want to scare them off.

Blizzard loves their exposition dumps, but often neglects that he person behaving like a newborn fawn can’t be the multi-millennia old person of the world.

From u/xmaracx

I will never ever understand why they took the sanding away of the rough edges of the races to this degree.

I understand that you want to have relatable elements that humanize and bring the various races closer to us, hell its what made wc3 so great.

But they just kept going, and kept going, and kept going.

Its as if they kept saying “why shouldnt we take the moderate path with X race” and kept asking and kept asking and kept asking even though that decision has become the default and there is now a dire need for “why shouldnt we take the confrontational path with X race”

I saw a post of a comparison of classic warcraft concept art with hearthstone art, complaining that wow has become too meek, ofc the post is made in bad faith and ofc hearthstone is more lighthearted, but i do think that warcraft really has become far too meek and afraid of actual confrontation between factions, or in this case cooperation while not everything being peachy and sanded away like theyre doing with amani

the only way they know how to do it now is to make one side obviously evil/wrong/ignorant and thats it, i doubt that we will ever get something nuanced like the theramore purge from wow ever again with these writing decisions

Follow up comment

There was a lot of compromise, actual legit compromise and not lipservice.

They really leaned into the disparate races that are effectively alienated, who have a pact of cooperation and tolerance. ACTUAL tolerance, not buzzword tolerance.

Undead being the prime example, nobody in the horde was actually cool with half the nasty stuff the forsaken did, but they made it work.

Tauren had many issues with how the rest carried themselves but made it work.

Blood elves literally allied with trolls, TROLLS, and they made it work.

Its not “i accept what youre doing even though its not perfect”, thats not tolerance, tolerance is: “i disagree with your acts but im willing to work something out”

Written like my version, Liadrin would sound not dumb, not ignorant and also not like some young hopper out of school. She sounds like someone that lived through harsh times with the Amani, learned to respect their culture and understand the several differences in values and identity between Trolls as a species.

The way the Blizzard writer wrote it did ignore established lore and character personality. The way I wrote it (within 5 minutes, I want to add, not knowing :poop: about Liadrin as a character) it already sounds more respecting of established lore and character.

The current writing of the quest for sure puts dirt on the good parts of Midnights story (didn’t play it myself, don’t want to spoiler myself but heard from lots of testers it is quite good for their taste).

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this right here undermines any valid point you may or may not have.

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Read the entire context first before responding. I specifically said that, directly follow by.

I know context-based reading is for many people these days an increasingly hard task due to attention-span issues and ADHD being more common. But for the love of this game, at least try it before commenting. :laughing:

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i read the entire thing and my point still stands that along with this childish response makes you out like a elitist incel.

5

Alright, guess talking to you brings no merit. Enjoy your day.

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I am somewhat confused, as that’s not how I read this at all.

Liadrin is arguably reflecting on her biases, upon thousands of years of conflict and seething hatred to challenge those ideas for what is beyond. Similarly—in the context of Alexstrazsa—she was, as I want to remember, trying to divert because of that trauma. She opted for ignorance, to not have to remember. It was a character trait, a flaw, to try and look the other way and in ignorance regarding the details you mention.

I find it amusing how players sometimes cry wolf that the writers have “nO iDeA wHaT tHeY’rE dOiNg” and to be nothing but woke, colorful-haired activists … while simultaneously failing to find or see any kind of depth in any character. As though every word written is literal and has no actual character. Characters can lie, to themselves and others. They are sometimes biased, for good or for ill. For their own or others’ benefit. They’re not omniscient, they do not owe us anything nor should we take everything they say at face value or as though it is absolute fact. Ever. They are written to have ambitions, hopes, dreams and goals—and might act upon or against those accordingly.

Red herrings, redirections, subversions of expectations—these are all a writer’s tool as well.

I would suggest that it would make a fel of a lot of sense for the sin’dorei in general to completely disregard and dismiss the cultural “savagery” of the trolls. Why would they historically have cared about their civilization or society; which loa is which; which tribe is which? They’re “beasts” and deserve to die—period. Slay them all, good riddance.

Wouldn’t it make more sense to see these “allies” as a necessary evil due to everything they’ve been through; a woeful product of being in the Horde?

Are the sin’dorei or Liadrin not allowed that kind of bias?

By reading between the lines that this potential bias exists and that they’re potentially exploring how the sin’dorei have historically treated the Amani—doesn’t this offer a modicum of depth to these intrigues and interactions. In lieu of blankly stating facts as though she’s reading off her own Warcraft Wiki entry?

To explore and have Liadrin ponder; that perhaps there’s more than meets the eye to this people that they nearly drove to extinction; that perhaps both were wrong in how they acted. And that both could be the better one now—and that maybe she, more and better than anyone, knows the value of the offer of second chances. Of redemption?

Personally …

… it concerns me greatly that stories and developments that I consider include a great deal of maturity, narrative depth and sometimes ideas such as challenging ones’ views, biases or age-old traditions … are seemingly being misinterpreted by players that sadly seem to have the emotional breadth of a finger nail.

Edit: Rephrasing, structuring.

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I really can’t agree with that.. It’s litterly fitting.. The Elves of Quel’thalas treated the Amani Trolls so many years just as Wild Animals, as Barbarians… They simply just Ignored the Culture of the Amani… And let’s be real, its also pretty hard to learn the Culture of a Race/troll tribe if that tribe is trying to kill every single one of your People…

The Trolls and Elves of Quel’thalas are in such a long war… And never tryed to make peace or tryed even to talk.. So no wonder Liadrin stays there kinda like ‘Suprise Pickachu face’.. its the first time the Amani is talking with an elve of Quel’thalas without death curses… And the first time a Elve is listining and watching.. I mean you saw it at the start of the Zul’aman quest… The trolls are clearly just intrested in the Lightwood and Lor’themar is nearly declaring a full out War again against the Amani.

The Elves of Quel’thalas are pretty stuborn in there thinking and have real problems to do things diffrent.. A thing that you can see clearly in the Story of Midnight.. The Stubborn Thinking, the thinking on old Traditions… The arrogance that they need to put off now…

So before you think about any ‘Blue haired twitter activist’ you should probably first try to learn about a arrogant and Stubborn Race that is still in the working of opening up their minds to the world…

1 Like
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A fair observation. However, that’s maybe for you a perception of trauma. People deal all in different ways with their trauma and have various different ways of covering it up or suffering from it.

When I think of trauma, I think of traumas as displayed in Baldurs Gate 3. You know, an actual award-winning game that has good story telling.

Trauma in Baldur’s Gate 3 - A Deep Analysis

What we have as “trauma” in this case, is so shallow in my eyes it may not even float in a puddle of water.

If that is depth, then I am the Emperor of China.

First rule of Sun Tzu, the Art of War:

“Know your enemy and know yourself, and in a hundred battles you will never be in peril”

To know your enemy, their culture, their laws and rules, their creed of honor (if they have any) to use and exploit it against them, is a VERY common trope used MULTIPLE TIMES in Warcrafts history. Mostly in the books but still.

Blizzard should know this. And also every culture in a good, depth-driven authentic written way should know this.

This isn’t about personal “trauma”, this is about racism between races and the portrayal of grudges, hatred, blood feuds, war and losses.

If I would have to make another analogy regarding this writing, this Warcraft writing reads and sounds like as written by someone who never has seen any ounce of War in any media.

Considering the Blood Elves are supposed to be snobby and egomanic, yes. But that is a notion hardly displayed these days by Blizzard. Because “oh beware, we shan’t write lines that shall offend thy player”-mentality.

If that “allies out of necessity” notion would have been the goal, Liadrin would have to bring up at least a few times that the Blood Elves only work with the Amani together for pure self-preservation.

But this isn’t Warhammer-based Blizzard writing. This is the “Disney”-based Blizzard writing. Where every bad behavior must be punished, outlawed and shunned in a way to both in-game lore and the player.

Because apparently, the idea of writing a morally grey character or society in a fictional fantasy setting is a taboo not to be broken.

Blood Elf Magisters used to employ mind-control to sway other Elves who where against joining the Horde back in the old lore. In no scenario the Blood Elves from that era of Blizzard writing would at all ally with the Amani today.

Ever heard of “Show, don’t tell”? If not, that’s a very common practice in visual media. Instead of telling things through dialogue, you show it as body language or acts in scenes.

Since WoW is a VIDEOgame, it should make good use of that approach. But since Blizzard makes only very few cutscenes usually, they should logically have to rely on telling others.

And the thing is, reading in-between the lines is something for DnD sessions and Books/Comics, not for Video game quest dialogue most don’t read.

And we aren’t reading a book here, nor are we having a 1:1 dialogue with those characters as if in a Bioware game. Our characters have no voice, no agency of their own. And without the possibility to take influence upon NPCs decisions through conversation, for many that “depth” falls instantly flat.

It’s literally like standing before a brickwall that speaks to you but you can’t talk to it nor will it hear you. In other words, it’s a “narcisstic injury”, as Gabe Newell put it once. The game world and characters are “ignoring” the player character (and therefore us and our perception of things) by not allowing actual dialogue in writing.

A good example of the game acknowledging you is the entire Mass Effect trilogy. Most decision from prior games on an imported save file will be reflected and expanded upon in the later games.

For a detailed summary of how that works, you can follow this link: https://www.rpgsite.net/feature/11112-mass-effect-choices-consequences-decisions-that-matter-across-the-trilogy

In those games, dialogue options and decisions made alter how the story can play out. And as a result, you get naturally invested with the world, characters and story.

WoW doesn’t have that. We as players, have at no point whatsoever, any influence over the games lore. It is determined by Blizzard and presented to us how Blizzard wants. It’s very linear, leaves barely any place for depth and is in recent years not as interesting as it used to be due to lack of conflict between player factions, grit and negative emotions.

Major lore characters (if not villains) aren’t allowed to show any grudges, hatred or general negative emotions towards other characters unless it serves for a convenience-plotpoint for the writer in-between 1-2 quests.

Most recent example of this is Alleria during the Ka’resh story in TWW S3. For 1-3 quests she disappears after Xal’atath does something only to return in the end like a child that needed time to cool off.

From a professional Farstrider that fought the Legion for a thousand years alongside Turalyon, especially after that Void arc in Legionsfall Campaign on Argus… From such a character I expect pragmatism and a controlled, disciplined personality.

Not a character that has an ill-temper, that goes on a “Let me solo her”-hunt against Xal’atath in the TWW base story and makes more bad decisions than good ones. That’s something I expect from a writer that is inexperienced. And that’s what we seemingly got from an inexperienced writer at Blizzard.

Because if modern Alleria had any maturity, she would own up her own failures and mistakes, she would seek to improve on her personal flaws to grow as a person. Not double down on them because the writers need convenience for their lazy quest designs!

The thing is, the leader of one of the major community discords I am on asked a Senior Quest designer at Blizzard about the checking for lore plot holes and such and how Blizzard makes sure those don’t happen.

This was the response from the dev:

https://x.com/Boogily_Woogily/status/1984298627649716549

Blizzard seemingly can’t be bothered to make a Lore archive on their end, putting all major character decisions into a bullet point list and the overall stories into a summary and then using keywords to filter after specific sections to read up what happened there.

You know, actually doing their job as “narrative writers”.

Let us ignore then several incidents where Elves captured Amani trolls for interrogation (because the Amani did so too). Let us apparently forget about the fact that Zul’Jin was tortured, got an eye stabbed out after questioning, only to escape and ally with the Horde during the 2nd war.

Assuming intelligent life that is capable of forming a language among their kin has no culture is like assuming that you can breathe under water IRL.

Language is literally culture. And the Elves did also know that the Amani build their own shelters, have rituals, prayed to Loas and much more especially since they joined the Horde due to Darkspears and Zandalari.

They LITERALLY WENT TO THE HISTORICAL CAPITAL OF THE TROLL CULTURE. And yet you want to tell me “nah, they never knew it”.

As elves and any long-living race should be. They aren’t short-lived humans! They live multiple centuries easily, some even with magic for thousands of years (for Blood Elves it is stated they could live up to 3.800 years with magical immortality)

Such beings don’t and won’t change their ways that easily because said ways have proven for hundreds of years to work!

Look especially in that regard at Prophet Velen.

  • When Sargeras corrupted his people, he and others fled.
  • When the Xenedar was created and the pre-Lightforged Draenei did break off from the other Draenei, he and others still fled.
  • When Draenor fell to the Demonic Orc-tide, he and a portion of their society went into hiding, while everyone else stayed and fought to make it look like they were exterminated entirely.
  • When Outland was created and later on the Kael’thas followers invaded Tempest Keep, he and others fled on the Exodar to Azeroth.
  • When the Legion returned, he fought because he and others had nowhere else to run.
  • When they went to Argus and the Xenedar was shot down and crash-landed, he was tempted to flee again, were it not for Illidans remarks turning him around and out of his trauma.

THAT is trauma done right without spitting on a races ways. Draenei are in nature peace-loving pacifists, who are also good at forgiving their enemies. The change to a fighting mentality within Velen took bloody 10.000 years!

Elves are not Draenei. But they live long enough to also not wanting to change their ways easily.

Here is the thing. DO THEY HAVE TO?

Look at Warhammer. The grudges and racism between the races is exactly what makes Warhammer 40k and Fantasy so popular! Because each version of that universe is about grit, about consequences, about prejudice and depth between races, both for good and ill.

May I even remind you that Warcraft originally was meant to be a Warhammer game but Blizzard (Chaos Studios) back then couldn’t get the rights, so they inspired their universe from said lore from Warhammer? That was what made Warcraft so unique and good back then. Because it didn’t shy back from boldness, from grit, from death and blood (not the literal sense). Because it was actual adult content, not some childish writing that feels more fitting for a Disney movie than an adult-oriented game.

Take other games for example. GTA isn’t a favored series for being “kids-friendly”. It’s favored because it’s about topics and themes people in real life CAN’T LIVE OUT.

Especially the expectations and waiting for GTA 6 is sky-high. When Rockstar published the first GTA 6 teaser, you could literally see half the Internet shake in excitement.

The last time World of Warcraft had such an impact, was during Wrath of the Lich King and Legion. Both expansions where Blizzard DIDN’T shy back from mature story telling such as death and grit.

But these days, telling such stories? “Nah, we can’t do that. The ‘modern audience’ won’t like old, classical story telling. Let us rather re-invent the wheel of story telling instead”.

And that’s not even going over the issue with young writers these days not reading and consuming older media or basing their writing off from real life experiences. No, they base it off from movies and shows they watched in their youth, fueling this disconnect from quality and preferences between players and creators.

Remember, “Avengers Allies assemble!” Marvel-Ripoff in Dragonflight was a thing!

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Yet here’s the kicker …

More or less all of the examples you’ve provided are games with a PEGI rating of 18(+). At least in so far as Baldur’s Gate 3 and the Grand Theft Auto series is concerned.

World of Warcraft has a PEGI rating of 12.

As you briefly go into, it feels Disney-esque … because it is intended to be.

PEGI 12

Video games that show violence of a slightly more graphic nature towards fantasy characters or non-realistic violence towards human-like characters would fall in this age category. Sexual innuendo or sexual posturing can be present, while any bad language in this category must be mild.

https://pegi.info/what-do-the-labels-mean

You arguably drop the ball big time by not comparing the writing found in World of Warcraft with contemporary titles similarly intended for teen audiences. If you decide to play and experience World of Warcraft as though it is something other than it actually is, by all means. I get what you mean with your examples, but they’re irrelevant.

You’re banking on something at your own peril. Same as many others that do the same.

If you were to make the case that you wish that World of Warcraft were developed and intended for audiences of a higher rating allowing for new types of stories and content, absolutely. Personally, I’m here for the fairy tale. Not extreme violence or sexual content.

This is a wacky, non-sensical world best compared to titles such as LEGO adaptations.

In my opinion, it is to do the game a massive disservice to view or analyse the writing without keeping in mind the game’s rating. That doesn’t mean one can’t be critical of what a story is or how it is presented, how characters are written and so on. Yet to make the equivalent of screaming “Where’s the blood and gore?! I’ve been slighted!” at the screen after having booted up what is essentially a children’s game seems … folly.

It feels like a children’s game, because it is a children’s game. Always has been.

And likely, to a degree, it always will be.

My point is that examples such as the “Avengers Assemble”-moment arguably was and is a perfect encapsulation of precisely the kind of experience that World of Warcraft promises with its chosen demographic and the rating it is developed for. And as mentioned, I wouldn’t want to have it any other way.

10

I am currently too busy to respond in detail, but here a few examples of media with the same rating and still more violence/grit/maturity…

Other games that are also PEGI 12:

  • Elder Scrolls: Oblivion/Skyrim (you can literally join a murder hobo cult in both games that kills for fun and contracts and generally can kill almost every NPC at your leisure)
  • Final Fantasy 8, 10 and 12 (ironically showing more major lore characters die than WoW did the past 3 expansions)
  • Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
  • Baldurs Gate 1 & 2

TV shows and movies that are rated PEGI 12:

Regarding the sexual posturing and co, that was removed by Blizzard because “scandals” at the detrimental expense of players that like such content.

Regarding the bad language, we had one swearing word present in WoW (Garrosh famous “B*tch!” towards Sylvannas Windrunner) and these days, kids use such words without restrains on school yards, even worse. Censoring that was a useless effort.

Point is, a well written story can be made entirely within a PEGI 12 age rating. Yet Blizzard is too afraid to give the adults among us wanting more adult-suited PEGI 12 content exactly that.

Neither of those are required to tell a compelling and gritty story.

Ironic that you say that, considering it is meant for 12 years old AND ABOVE. Yet I feel at times treated like a 10 year old by the game.

Good for you, I would want to have it another way. The Wrath of the Lich King/Legion “edgy” kind of way. Or at least as good as Star Wars: The Clone Wars (which isn’t a high bar tbh).

I want a serious universe, not a joke game. And writing such as this quest text, is a joke tbh. And Blizzard writers seem to think teens of the age of 12 and above can’t handle some borderline racism/prejudice/grudge between races or in-universe insults like “Knife-Ear” or similar.

At this point, they could put a PEGI 6 age rating on the story box for more clarity, but they will never get that rating because the game is too complex for that.

And seemingly, society these days acts like Teens of the Age 12 can’t handle Age 12 content anymore, so it must be now labeled PEGI 16 content, while the former PEGI 6 content is now PEGI 12 content. At least that is how it feels to me.

But alas, we move away from the topic and feedback.

Tl;dr: Please don’t shy away from PEGI 12 fitting content because of personal preference, Blizzard. People CAN handle a bit of blood, violence, death and co in WoW. Even borderline prejudice and Racism, if it is expressed in-universe fittingly.