Fellowship got it all right / M+ did everything wrong ... Time to learn blizz

Community General Discussion
61

I palyed it. And it’s trash. Boring.

It’s cool the first couple of weeks. Cause it’s new. Cause everything is easy, it just seems hard because its a new game and you dont understand things.

But very quickly you get the hang of it. And then it becomes an absolute wipe fiesta. It’s really boring.

This is the WORST. I get paired up with absolute moronic monkeys. I simply cant stand that any longer. And I am tired of always having to carry at-least 1 person in the party.

We had addons for that. Not anymore. So I agree.

Yeah no… you have unrealistic expectations.

The class balancing in WoW would also be amazing. IF you could completly divorce the talent trees from the content you do. 1 talent tree for raids, 1 talent tree for M+, 1 for PvP… ect…

Given the crazy amount of permutations there is in WoW, Blizzard actually does a good job at that.

All that blizzard is missing is to prevent staleness. They need to do small tweeks every week.

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62

i dont see why this shouldnt happen … infact i have been asking for this since SL

none of these contents should have anything to do with each other , you essentially have 3 games with 3 different communities that have 3 diffierent point of views and beliefs and you have them all operating under one roof . results : not great

yes , also another thing i have been asking since for ever … weekly class balancing and update

this is always gonnna be the case , no game has a perfect matchmaker , you will always have these problems but its better than afking in dornogal .

a perfect matchmaker does not exist and never will , because a matchmaker cannot predict the outcome of a scenario that can differe from person to person each time it runs its command dosnt matter how many metrics you give it …. it will increase the accuracy but there will always be miss calculations

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63

Then it’s not WORLD of Warcraft anymore is it? It’s just 3 games mushed together.

No it’s not. LFG works fine to prevent that.

Just pick people with high RIO. Yes, some of them are monkeys. But the chances are lower.

It’s simply statistics. There are more monkeys than non-monkeys. If you roll the dice, you got 100% chance of being paired up with at-least 1 out of 3 monkeys.

By simply ckecking RIO and keys completed, that chance is less than 100%.

It’s simple statistics.

And sure… you COULD automate this. But think about it for a minute…

What kind of matchmaking system deliberately picks over-qualified DDs as it’s basic function. That wont help anyone, and it would be worse.

LFG atleast offers you the ability to run your own key and do that process yourself. Which is how people progress. A matchmaking system cant do that.

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64

yeah well … i got news for you ! it is already there . none of us want to have anything to do with each other tbf with you . some might have mixed opinions but majority stays the same …. PVP players made it clear for years

and this part is just 10iq revealed take ! what did you think i was suggesting when i said matchmaker ? you thhink i suggest lets just randomly put 5 ppl together ? OFC not WTF? !

matchmaker with SBMM deff stat tracking ( i dont care if its exploitable ) , Rio mixed with it obviously and potentially some behavior control , having players flagged as toxic etc … thats a matchmaker

and its not like you cant have LFG next to it …. no ones forcing lfg to go away

65

Yes. PvP players did make it clear for years. But the talent tree is still the same.

What behavioral control are you talking about? Stop yapping nonsense and sit down to think how something like that would be done.

What? You dont have enough proof with Heroic Dungeon matchmaking to know it’s a horrible idea?

Im sorry. It cannot be done for ANY sort of content that can be considered “challenging”. You can do matchmaking for easy content. But not hard.

That is why you like it so much. You are doing the equivalent of a heroic dungeon in Fellowship. There it works. Try Paragon and Eternal in Fellowship. THERE you will realize that Matchmaking is simply garbage. PURE garbage.

There are class synergies to begin with. And if you get paired up with the wrong one… BUM… guaranteed wipe.

No… NOT possible.

And if you want further proof, play Darktide. I play that. It also has matchmaking. And Auric missions are a complete disaster because of it.

I mean… I can give you a complete list of games with a matchmaking system. Each with a different way of calculating some form of MMR. In ALL of them… the moment it becomes a little bit challenging… it’s garbage.

66

all of those things you wrote up there … which i wont even mention all of them can be summed in 1 simple sentence as an answer for the why : THE DEV TEAM HAS SKILL ISSUES .

all of those are fixable with competent devs all of them … you can solo Q eternal and have a fun time doing it . sure the queue might take up to 10-15 minute but you will get a good game if its done right . ( which it isnt i assume i havent got to eternal yet but i probably will at some point )

making a good matchmaker is not easy it costs money and requires time and competent experienced dev that specializes on that field . its not free

so the reality is you have been playing a bunch of game that have garbage matchmaking and you think wow matchmaking would probably look something like those … which it will essentially yoou are not wrong :smiley: but thats because blizz devs suck , that has nothing to do with matchmaking being wrong for the game

67

Right. Maybe you are correct.

But answer me this: Why is it that no game on the planet has achieved this?

What? ALL devs have skill issues? ALL companies are broke indie companies?

What’s the deal here?

You know what they say. If it was that easy, it would have been done already. Right? :slight_smile:

68

there is no perfect matchmaker no matter how precise you design it , but there are good matchmakers and bad matchmakers you just happen to see the ones that are bad …

both dota2 and csgo had near perfect matchmaking from 2014 to 2018 ish where things changed once new ideas came to the market but i wont get into that its another discussion for another time ( some other games along the way also had near perfect matchmaking , Overwatch i can think at the top of my head made by blizzard btw near perfect matchmaker … shows that they are capable , there are others for sure i just cant remember them now )

and then there are bad ones , like Fellowship , or darktide or what ever game you played that was made by some small studio company with limited budget

as for wow and m+ well , its complicated a bit more than others but i can only think of few things ( most will be exploitable but again better than nothing )

1 : overall performance based on role , dmg/heal/dr uptime etc … again exploitable but better than nothing , its a metric they can gather info from
2 : successful kicks and stuns ( again exploitable but better than nothing )
3 : Death , the amount of time you die in a run , dont think i need to mention that all of these are exploitable but yeah you get the point
4 : avg ST dmg / AVG aoe dmg / AVG priority target while in aoe dmg all that can be tracked and traced and used as data to determine a players skill
5 : completed dungeons in time , obviously this already exists in the form of RIO
6 : idk efficient routing for tanks , maybe a built in MDT and how much time was saved per pull … idk they can work it out im not here to do they’re job im sure there are plenty of other things they can pull data from to determine skill and create a good matchmaker

69

Did you read what I said?

You can make any matchmaking algorithm you want. It dosent matter. ALL matchmakers are bad if the content is difficult. That is literally the common factor. Including wow.

I mean… what? Blizzard/Microsoft/Activision/Xbox/Nintendo/ect… is not capable of doing a matchmaker that works for easy AND hard content?

PLEASE…

I did not say the one from Fellowship was a bad system. All I said is that in high difficulties it begins to fail. Just like ALL others.

70

thats just BS :smiley: like im not even gonna read any more at this point what does content difficulty has anything to do with the matchmaker , i cant bro you are just spewing random BS connecting two things that have nothing to do with each other … cba GL

matchmaker is a bad idea i accept defeat by forumer …. you cant beat a brick

like matchmaker is simply a tool to save ppls precious time , and you are just here spinning random BS about content difficulty and stuff that has nothing to do with the primary goal of the system , its crazy honestly …. god help your parents

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71

OK. Play some Paragon, and Eternal in Fellowship. See it for yourself.

Then come back and we will talk. :slight_smile:

72

If said no to matchmaker before, but at this point i rather see a matchmaker especially after season 3 TWW

73

This comes up a lot. Especially from the PvP side, but now it’s even happening as a schism in the PvE community.

Let me explain something to you: This game is, in fact - and I know this might be a major shock, only a single game. It has many facets, but it is nevertheless just one game.

And in this one game, I created a character. One character. This character has certain abilities, talents, and stories.

So obviously I would expect this character of mine to have the same talents, memories, abilities, and body shape regardless of where I take her. Maybe she’ll put on different things, maybe she’ll have her hair cut, but fundamentally she’s a consistent, persistent character.

So when you tell me, because of friggin’ balance reasons of all things, that actually she should develop schizophrenia and change at random depending on what she’s doing, we’re going to have a problem.

I rolled a Pandaren frost mage. That means something. This is a roleplaying game, first and foremost, and if you take that sake of consistency away from me because oh no the top 200 players in the world are all ret paladins… WHY?! Who cares?! What, the 1000 people who can’t be in the top 200 because they’re all ret paladins or something? Okay, fine; they’re like 0.02% of the playerbase. They might have a point, they might be frustrated; their perspective isn’t irrelevant, but compared to changing the entire premise of the game? Peanuts.

This is the tail wagging the dog so hard. Yes, the tail wagging moves the rump around a little bit, but if it starts making the head bob and the heart fail all by itself, stop!

Step 1: Make fun classes
Step 2: Take a view of the content in which they can be used
Step 3: Balance it as well as you can, however imperfect it may be, across these activities.

Don’t balance the game (around what?), then design the content around them, and then design the classes around it. That makes no sense.

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74

You can use the crafting system to reroll items, so you can get the trinkets you want quite easily.

I haven’t played a lot on Adept yet, but from what I can tell, the affixes make the trash mob section of the dungeon a lot more interesting and varied.

Products become difficult to maintain when they’re poorly designed. I’m a software engineer IRL and I’ve seen some code that’s only 6 months old and already difficult to maintain because some inexperienced people hacked together a lot of spaghetti code without supervision. I’ve also seen large, well-curated code bases that are over 10 years old and still relatively easy to change. So product age doesn’t automatically lead to poor maintainability.

I haven’t seen WoW’s code, but it’s super bloated as a product. A lot of class abilities, regular talents, hero talents, tier sets, trinkets, etc. don’t make the game more fun in any way; instead those things just makes the game annoyingly complicated for most players and basically impossible for Blizzard to tune well.

I hope the Fellowship devs will not add more and more systems to the game like Blizzard did with WoW. The Fellowship devs are big WoW fans, so they are probably well aware of the development mistakes that WoW made.

75

Unless they make decisions that affect the entire game only to make M+ not be different in comparison to the rest of the game, like Plunderstorm.

You don’t even need those. Tab prioritizes casting enemies, and you can macro your interrupt to also say something (or do an emote like /e kicks [target] on the balls).

76

Yeah but isn’t it still pretty RNG what you get? I remember using it and then having to chose from 3 Different Items. Unless you mean something else that i have missed.

From my personal experience in Adept, the Affixes don’t really change up the Gameplay for Trash all that much.

True, what i meant is essentially what you mentioned about Spaghetti Code, i would assume that 21 Years of ever changing Dev Teams would probably at some point lead to a pretty messy Code.

77

Not having to deal with durablity already sold the game for me lol. “Heroes don’t pay bills” indeed.

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78

U clearly didnt played with a good Rime player rime is OP against all other dps classes. So no class balance is not top notch.

79

Always enough healers no tanks no

80

Fellowship is not complex haha