Do you not realize that this scenario can’t logically happen in any way shape or form?
Since there are MUCH less tanks and healers than DPS, every single tank/heal will have near instant invites and the group will be full.
There is an overabundance of DPS players. As soon as a tank and a healer are witihin a group, they won’t have to wait more than 30 seconds to fill every other DPS spot.
Your described scenario can not happen.
It will work out the same way as LFD does right now. DPS spots will be filled within seconds, those 3 dps will wait a 30 minutes for a tank and a healer to queue up. Both, the tank and the healer, will have a near instant invite as soon as they queue up → group is done and go.
There is no scenario where a tank or a healer will have to wait even remotely the same time as a DPS will.
Remove keystones altogether and allow people to play whatever they wish.
As for timers, once you’ve done the above, it no longer matters if you’re casual and just want good gear and don’t care about score.
It also removes the pressure to “balance the dungeons” since you’ll never get a dead key.
It fixes basically everything, which is hilarious because the vanilla devs deliberately didn’t add systems that took away progress for failure because all these kinds of issues come out all over the place and ruins the game.
honestly the main reason why we have way less tanks and healers than other mmorprgs or rather, why the inherent core problem is so much worse in wow, is because the community shietes on them so much.
a tank needs to know everything about the m+ dungeon same as the healer. the dps? at most know what to kick. route? not their responsibility, positioning? not their responsibility…
dps barely have ANY responsibility in dungeons besides kicking or ccing in some cases and then have the gall to blame tanks and heals for the mistakes the whole group made together.
You forget in normal LFG the tank and healer can cherrypick the group. So they have a battleres, bloodlust, sufficient interrupts, the right dispell, etc.
Of course the tank has no waiting time in a soloQ, but that is the same in LFG right now. But in soloQ there’s no cherrypicking. The chance of success of a normal LFG group will be way higher over a soloQ. So why would a tank with no waiting time in both systems use the system with a worse experience? Never.
I thought that was quite obvious.
How long the dps waited in both systems is irrelevant for the tank.
You are really missing the point, arent you?
Its not the case of “best DPS being taken or some standards or whatnot”.
If I put a key up as a tank or healer. I got 3 dps slots…and 40 applicants can sign up. I can dance and bend how I want but I can ONLY TAKE 3. Meaning 37 DPS be left outside in the cold. Now…how tho choose those 3. Well I will obviously take the best 3 candidates from the list and thats natural human behaviour. Even if you offer a slice of a cake for a 5 year old, he will obviously choose and will want to take the biggest slice.
DPS being held to a higher standard is a natural consequence because the demand is smaller than the supply for it. Even if you argue to take lower standard DPS. Ok. From the list of 40, I will take the worst 3. But the scenario remains the same - 37 people get left out without a spot.
My mantra is that everyone should have a place to play. A place that is fun for them. Removing things from M+ would remove the “place to play” for those that actually enjoy the “high octane” of M+.
All for what? To appease those that do not? They got Raids/Delves which are purposely made for them. Why do we need to change M+ to make it look like a Delve?
So OK sure why not. Lets do what you say. But in exchange I want a timer on Delves, infinite scaling, and Rio score. So I have a place to live as well.
You’re saying that the scarcity of tanks results in no waiting time for them, whereas DPS are a dime a dozen, so the opposite is true, right?
I’m a reasonable person, so I concede this point.
Now I need you to be reasonable and concede these points:
Be it a tank, a healer, or DPS. The person forming the group has the most influence on how quickly it’s established.
Do you agree?
The two most common barriers to entry for M+ are:
To do a +10, you have to have done a +10 (and timed it).
The player’s rating
Do you agree?
So how did you square that circle?: Tanks/healers have no waiting time.
How quickly the tank/healer got into the group is irrelevant; it’s my group, so we’re going to wait for a DPS that timed a +15 to join my +15 key, and that just might take 45 minutes.
Let’s say you are the tank, and you’ve been waiting in my group for 15 minutes, you get fed up, and you decide to leave.
You quickly got accepted to another group, and they started the dungeon immediately.
Those 15 minutes you spent waiting for my group to fully form still count against you.
I’m not really sure what I removed other than the keystone as an item. I don’t understand why you like that so much. You’re the first person I’ve ever met who likes that it is possible to lose your chance to run a meaningful dungeon to some random idiot who leaves 5 minutes into it because his goldfish is on fire.
There are still timers.
There are still hard dungeons.
There is still a score system.
There are still affixes.
There are still horrible consequences for mistakes at higher levels.
There’s still a rush if you want higher M+ score - and none if you don’t, just like presently where you still get items if you fail the timer.
There are still infinite difficulties.
It doesn’t play like a delve at all.
All it does is allow you to create groups for whatever dungeon you want, at whatever difficulty you want, whenever you want. Everything else stays the same.
Reading all your suggestions, I’m curious if you even play M+ at all? Looking at your profile, I don’t see any runs, on any difficulty.
No.
The only thing I would consider changing is adding more tiers of the resilient keystone system, which currently only works from +12 and up, where your keys can’t deplete below +12, even if you miss the timer. Maybe we could have those for +7, +10 in addition to +12, so there are more granular milestones for people to work on. With that being said, the timer is a core mechanic of M+, and without it, you would lose some of pressure that makes the run exciting. If you don’t want a timer, you can do regular mythics.
No.
Again, you want to remove a core part of M+. I only play M+ as a tank, and that is part of my job to learn the routes and what to pull. Blizzard has already made most dungeons pretty streamlined, so for the most part you can simply run to each boss and kill whatever trash is in the way. There are hardly any dungeons anymore that require you to do any detours to get enough %.
The only change I think they should consider, is adding a harder difficulty to follower dungeons. The problem with the current version is everything dies so fast, you can’t really use it to learn any mechanics.
No.
Too much randomness. Blizzard has never been able to balance mechanical affixes. I like what they have done the last few seasons, where the affix is a kiss/curse effect, but it doesn’t drastically change how you have to play. You still feel like you’re playing the dungeon, not the affixes. That was not the case a few expansions ago, where certain weeks had so many bad combinations that people barely wanted to play, while other weeks had easy combinations which coined the phrase “push week”.
This tells me you haven’t done much M+ at all, because it would be absolutely dreadful. How can you compare runs with complete randomness? That means that people trying to push higher keys might get randomly rekt from these bonus bosses. Imagine being on the last boss with a tight timer, and a random bonus boss spawns and ruins your key? Awful.
Most of the changes suggested are so drastic that M+ wouldn’t even resemble what they are today.
If you look at the vast majority of feedback in other threads, it usually involves these:
Key depletion
Leavers
Solo queue system
Key depletion can be solved with more levels of resilient keystones, currently only from +12 and up.
I don’t really join any pugs so I can’t say anything about the new system with vote to abandon. Solo queue system is fine by me, although it wouldn’t really affect me personally as I only play with friends. Even with a solo queue systems, I wouldn’t join pugs.
If I could add any changes myself, I would say buff drums back up to 25% haste, and change the combat res items to be instant cast, or have 15-20y range. Or just give bloodlust and combat res to more classes. They already come with a limited amount of uses pr M+ or raid boss, so I don’t see the downside. Having those spells in a group have such a huge impact, and it’s frustrating if you play with friends and they happen to play specs who do not have those available.
I, as a tank/healer, will get accepted into a key with 500 less score and 10 item levels lower than Damage Dealers. That’s a whole lot lesser resistance.
Here is the thing… The purpose of depletes and random keys is to keep us playing. Blizzard has to do some steps to give us fun during a whole season.
Because be honest. Eventually you will reach a wall which is too annoying to surpass. It can be difficulty. It can be the “meta comp” starts to trickle down key level… ect…
So yes. We could discuss all that. But they have to be replaced by something that makes the season last longer.
I dunno, I think getting my key downgraded to a 9 or 11 is far more to deplete my will to play for the week than anything else.
You show up to the group finder with some 11+ Floodgate as a DPS and the amount of signups you get is actually 0, and now I can’t do anything except joining other people’s keys.
So to me at least it’s doing the very opposite. The amount of times I’ve stopped playing due to having a bad key is enormous.
But for me the primary wall at this point is honestly the monotony of it. It’s the same thing again and again and again. I tend to get to 3k and then get bored out of my absolute bloody mind and I start playing a different game altogether. Last time it was Morrowind, this time I think it’s going to Baldur’s Gate 3 with some more mods.
Then comes that feeling of dread that in just 3 months (by that point) everything I have earned will be gone, and the whole process starts again. Sure I’ll keep the cosmetics, but I actually genuinely do not care. I have enough cosmetics to make a unique transmog every day until the heat death of the universe. I’m just not that interested.
At some point it’s just like… yeah, I’ve seen it now.
I guess the problem is that I’m not inherently enjoying the combat as much as I used to. I think it’s become incredibly convoluted without offering much depth, but we’ve already talked about that before and it’s off topic anyway.
But like - if it isn’t inherently fun to do an activity, you’re not going to get far by FOMO’ing me or destroying my opportunities for progression, that I can assure you.
EDIT: Egh, sorry - got a bit long. TLDR: Ruining my key makes me shut the game off, and I’m tired of everything resetting, and the combat has started to suck.
You’re the first one on the plane but the plane won’t take off until everyone is boarded, I (the DPS) got on that same plane 45 minutes later, so tell me, what’s the relevance of you (the tank) being first on the plane to me getting on 45 minutes later?
The plane is not taking off until everyone is boarded, so you being first on is irrelevant.
Now if the argument is that all DPS are created equal then yes LFG could compete with SoloQ for the path of least resistance for tanks/healers.
