Flag carrier debuff

PVP Battlegrounds
1

I see so many people moaning about how x class is OP as flag carrier. And you’re right. But I believe this can be handled differently… nerfing a class over them being used as flag carrier won’t just impact flag carriers but everyone… besides, Blizzard would never tune an entire class based on PvP because Blizzard developers are mythic+ obsessed mouthbreathers.

If you’re in a HEALER role and you carry the flag? The flag carrier debuff should decrease the amount of healing received to force the other healer to assist you. This should avoid 1 man army mistweaver monks to run across the map.

On top of that, I feel like certain movement abilities should be nerfed hard while carrying the flag. Druid travel form? Grapple Hook? Chi Torpedo? Heroic Leap? All of those kind of abilities should be disabled while carrying the flag.

Sprint, dash, monk speed buff, shaman speed buff, etc. all fine. But any insane movement abilities should simply be disabled when carrying a flag.

2 Likes
2

Isn’t this why building stacks of Brutal Assault exist?

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3

The stacks build, sure. But by then, most healers that can carry a flag nowadays are already sitting comfortably on their cap point waiting for the efc to drop theirs.

The building stacks is totally useless. And I know that for a fact. I’ll queue with my MW monk just to carry flags. Easiest wins I’ve ever gotten. And I don’t even have conquest gear.

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4

Sounds like you’re facing many less-than-good teams. Good for you.

But wading through FC maps at walking pace while getting pounded with CC’s, chain-grips, knockbacks, roots, snares, stuns, grips, walls -with a perma healing debuff- …sounds like awful gameplay.

I’m not sure what people (not just you) want to morph FC maps into, but it doesn’t sound like anyone is going to want to FC if we’re going to remove movement enhancing abilities.

I don’t know why some classes can & some can’t use their mobility, but I’d rather see everyone being able to, than no-one. & have awful gameplay as a result.

5

It doesn’t have to be the way you’re describing. Blizzard should step in and address the issue. Right now, having a Mistweaver Monk or Preservation Evoker on your team is a huge advantage in flag-carrying situations.

To balance this, Blizzard should adjust the debuff that builds when carrying the flag, depending on the role of the flag carrier. Tanks, for instance, should have the greatest advantage. Currently, Mistweaver Monks and Preservation Evokers are often more effective at running the flag than actual tanks, to the point where Mistweavers who refuse to carry it are sometimes criticized.

My suggestion is to apply a debuff that reduces the amount of healing received when a healer is carrying the flag. This would make it less appealing for healers to take on the role of flag carrier.

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6

you know based on rng there´s the same chance of getting a evoker or a mw fc for anyone playing.

If you remove movement abilities you wont ever be able to cross the map this is already incredibly impossible at above 8 stacks since most movement abilities dont work.
the above cross scenario is ofc vs high rated players who actually pay attention.

What they should do instead is to make more abilities they have disabled useable while flag carrying.

7

I (personally) don’t think this is a bad thing.
I’d always offer FC role out before I volunteer myself & I think it’s tragic what Tanks are reduced to, but I remember the days of immortal Tanks (let alone having 2 healers with). Even escorting one now can be excruciatingly slow, stopping every 5yds to fight endlessly (as they rarely seem to kill anything).
Not unlike the Brawl, I see FC maps as more of a race & that’s precisely where mobile specs shine.

One thing that irks me at the moment about this, is players using MW/Evk as excuses for their bad plays.
-I’ve ran into flag rooms twice in the last few days, saw someone in def as soon as they were in range, didn’t use any mobility spells as I was saving for return journey, made it in & out before they’d even targeted me. Admittedly this was in Randoms where the quality of players is a gamble, but if you’re going to sit in def & not even notice (let alone target) ppl approaching, don’t blame your incompetence on my mobility.

MW FCs have plenty of weaknesses players could exploit.

As a MW who enjoys running flags (against challenging teams) I’m obviously going to push-back.
Debuffing ‘healers’ would also dissuade less-mobile healers & I don’t think you’d want this, lest we have to pick-up (dead Tank). I don’t think anyone should be dissuaded from FC’ing, but there are (and will always be) specs best suited for the role.

The extra mobility given to us in TWW caused the outrage, not our amount of healing, so I understand why people are …grouchy. But when I see how fast I can go, I stop & think… ‘yeh. Every cloud…’

But honestly, in my experience, the side who dominates mid will be usually able to freely run flags regardless of spec. Probably only MW would stand a ~chance otherwise (if they timed it right & the stars align). But more-often-than-not, it’ll come down to the quality of the other team.

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thunderous focus tea needs to be removed though you’ll do fine with the mobility ww has.

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Whenever I run into flag carry maps, I check the roster. If the enemy team has a preservation evoker or a mistweaver monk, I straight up leave. I don’t care about losing rating (bg blitz) or getting a deserter buff.

It’s just not worth the frustration. And it’s at that stage for a lot of people now…

I’ve also warned people / blizzard that this kind of stuff would be happening the moment they release hero talents. PvP got a speed boost because of them and it is hard to even keep up.

TWW is infact the one expansion where I’ve been really close to just quitting. It’s that I still have a subscription running till the end of the year and I want to gather those limited anniversary things in November. Otherwise I would’ve unsubscribed and waited this expansion out… because hero talents are purely oriënted for mythic+ just like everything added to the game since Mythic+ came out.

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Sounds like you’re dooming your team to lose, more than the MW is.
I mean, if it irks you that much that it’s better for your mental health to quit at the mere sight of a MW, then I understand why you’d desert. But I suppose the same logic could be / has been applied to players quitting because ’x-tank + 2 heals is impossible to counter’ -making it the meta, for atleast a while.

I don’t think MW are worth quitting TWW over, either we’ll get nerfed eventually, or more players will learn to adapt & counter.
Hero Talents shouldn’t be this much of an issue for you, surely it’s good that classes/specs get something new & shiny each expac, or we’d just be buying&subbing to play the same maps with the same spells & the same meta.

11

I know I’m posting as a warlock, but my main is an Outlaw rogue, which is currently in a rough spot. Despite that, I still play and perform well—I’ve mastered the class and made some impressive plays, even carrying my team single-handedly in objective-based maps more than once. But skill only goes so far when Outlaw’s damage is so RNG-dependent. I can execute my rotation perfectly against a hunter, mage, or warlock and still lose because Roll the Bones didn’t provide enough damage output.

That’s the main reason I’m considering quitting. On top of that, the mental toll is real. I’ve been playing Outlaw since Legion, and it’s a challenging spec to master. The effort I put into perfecting my gameplay, only to watch other players steamroll my class with minimal effort, is beyond frustrating.

And I’m not even talking about group fights—I’m referring to 1v1 situations.

Then there’s the introduction of Hero talents, which brought a lot of Mythic±oriented elements that have sped up PvP. Now, classes have absurd amounts of passive self-healing, mobility, off-healing, extra CC, and micro CC.

While I appreciate the idea of giving classes more depth, choice, and identity, the last thing PvP needed was even more passive healing, mobility, and crowd control.

Maybe I’m biased, since all Outlaw got was an extra grapple and a few damage modifiers. Meanwhile, other specs received far more impactful tools.

So, Mistweaver Monks aren’t the reason I’m quitting—it’s Blizzard’s overall approach to PvP balance. And honestly, I don’t think it’s worth stressing over anymore.

I’d consider playing other game modes, but I quit PvE when Mythic+ launched, as it made the PvE scene more competitive, anti-social, and toxic. PvP may have its issues, but at least there, I can still find some satisfaction in outplaying others.

For now, I’ll stick with Season of Discovery and hope Blizzard doesn’t ruin that too in the long run.

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12

Nerf this and I will purposefully never pick up the flag ever again.

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That doesn’t limit movement abilities that allow you to jump, leap or teleport.
The debuff only limits movement SPEED, which is asymmetrically unfair to certain classes/speccs, e.g. paladin steed which is completely useless with that debuff.

Edit: MW as FC is really way too unfair :slight_smile: saying that as Prot pala who can only dream of those tools they have at my disposal, I hoped Flag maps would be the reason why I could try Blitz, but it is so sad seeing how much better a HEALER spec is in doing that. With my MM hunter I’ve come across some good MW players in Flag maps, and what their class can do is beyond laughable.

It isn’t about RNG, and who gets those certain godtier specs on their team, it isn’t about making FCs completely useless though a debuff. It is about Blizzard being unable to balance their PvP game right. But yeah, we know they don’t really care about us… “Shut up, PvP Guy”

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As are a plethora of other movement enhancing abilities with the debuff. I wouldn’t say it’s asymmetrically unfair. I mean, Paladins aren’t really known for their kiting capabilities. Mobility is built-in as one of Monks defensives, so I think mobile specs would feel the impact of it more than a known wheelchair spec.

They’re indubitably strong, but it seems way too many people are using this as a scapegoat for their bad plays (ignoring MW the whole opener, until they’ve picked up the flag & 1/2 way back to their own keep before people notice, waddle their way towards the free-running MW before declaring ’hey! That’s not fair!’).

I’m not denying our mobility is strong (especially against newb/bad players lacking situational awareness), but it’s really only powerful for the initial run (which is absolutely counterable). Once Brutal Assault stacks build, mobility is a non-issue.

15

It gets even more absurd when you realise two things:

  • (1) Some movement abilities are already nerfed when having a flag, so its not consistent across all classes
  • (2) Some movement abilities that work with flag is disabled in Temple of Kotmogu when being a ball carrier, so the code already exist to nerf these abilities.

In an Agile Scrum Model, the task of nerfing flag carriers here is literally a small story that a new hire could do, since the task involves just copying whatever code is in Temple of Kotmagu and applying it to flag maps.

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I agree with Priskah in regards to MW simply being too overpowered right now. Sure, warlocks have it too. But the entire package of a hypermobile class being to teleport all around? It’s downright terrible to play against. And the Brutal Assault stacks you’re speaking of don’t really affect Transcendence for example. I’ve had monks kite melees back and forth from below to above in the flag rooms non-stop even on walking speed.

Personally, any such teleports should straight up be disabled when using the flag. Just like Demonic Gateway for warlocks already is. Warlocks are no exception, Demonic Circle should also be disabled.

Blizzard has already done a lot this expansion to make casters and healers stronger in kiting melee, or buffing them to deal with being sat on. When carrying the flag, you shouldn’t have to deal with being kited like MW monks are doing in Warsong Gulch going from up and down every 45 seconds.

And if you consider what Zotnar says as well… it isn’t consistent across all maps or classes, either.

So the solution to this problem is by disabling teleports across the board when carrying a flag/orb. It’d bring every class on an even playing field, even if some are more mobile or have more crowd control like ring of peace or an AoE stun.

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I’m sure a lot of people do, but I’d wager a lot of those players are also making bad plays & demotivating their team into a self-fulfilling loss. ”MW, GG go next…”

How long can a Rogue max CC chain someone? sap/sap/sap/stun/silence/stun/Blind-stealth-sap/sap/sap (?). That’s naive of me, as I’ve only dabbled with Rogue, but that’s how I’d try to open on the most likely FC, after bee-lining for them the second the gates open (not wait in flag room for them to cover 50% of their run unobstructed), then do the same on their way back. I’m confident a good Rog could force a Trinket before any potential FC even gets near the flag. If you’re fortunate enough to have a switched-on teammate or 2, throw in any combo of stuns/grips/snares/poly’s/fears/walls/RoPs/Traps from other players on your team.
But please don’t allow MW to run unobstructed 50-75% of his round-trip before you even start moving towards him (sitting in keep waiting for him to cover 50% of a round-trip & come take your flag (&leaveagain!?) before he’s even worth targeting), then grumble in the forums about our mobility.

I honestly don’t mind admitting MW mobility is very strong, but I’ve seen too many awful plays / tactics blaming our mobility & a lot of focused players shutting us down completely (better teams) to agree we’re insta-win unstoppable FC Gods.

Port should stay.
Stop trying to take away my toys.

18

You seem to have a very naïve view of rogue if you think that they can cc chain somebody nowadays.

Diminishing returns are a thing. There’s no way you can CC chain somebody, specially after kidney nerf.

What you’re describing is usually what’s happening: We rogues beeline for the MW the moment the gates open. But even then, we cannot keep the MW there.

The MW will do their AoE stun effect and dash off and is out of range within 4 seconds. After which we have to chase. And the cycle repeats.

We’re not trying to take away your toys. We’re trying to limit you using them while carrying a flag.

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Yeah, more “could be done” to counter-play your toys, but that is a lot of stuff that doesn’t have to be done against any other class in the game. It is legit too strong compared with the tools of other classes. Strong enough that it must be adapted in some way, if PvP in this game is supposed to be taken seriously at all… (adding this kind of class imbalances on the pile of reasons why (rated) PvP in WoW sucks hard)

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Players have had over 10yrs to adapt to port.

However, it seems to have only became an issue recently, presumably from new players who are witnessing it for the first time, (as they’re the only people it could come as a shock to), or the fact it’s coupled with increased mobility (which many specs have received) & so the issue (should players want to be taken seriously by Blizzard) should be reference the increased mobility, not about an ability that’s been approved & implemented for the last 10yrs & which good players manage to play-around.

Locks porting whole Raid teams out of a Boss room & behind the building -an ability no one else has & everyone has to play around. I’m sure there’s plenty of other examples of unique abilities that come in useful at certain points in certain maps.
Are you advocating the removal of all of them, or just Monk port?