For those of you who think/hope that Blizzard will rebalance classic won't happen

I wonder if you’ll use the same argument for Naxxramas, considering Naxxramas was released in 1.11 and hardly anything changed in the game between 1.11 and 1.12.

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Game design principles. Faillizard level of quality.
Current faceroll raids in wow classic is a bad game design.
Failizzard needs to learn from some best private servers on how to configure numbers to the correct levels of difficulty.
Еhe ‘old Blizzard wouldn’t have released a game with these failings.

The problem with this line of reasoning, in legacy servers, is that “configuring numbers” to levels that pserver players would find acceptable would basically force everyone else to run the same “meta” pserver players do - stacking wbuffs, using full consumables, loading up on certain classes etc.

It might surprise you, but there are raids out there that don’t use wbuffs in bulk (or, at least, don’t speedrun through the entire raid so fast and flawlessly that they can retain them for the full run), that don’t flask on everyone, or that don’t use 10-15+ fury warriors. And I don’t see why they should have to struggle or fail to clear the raid when the same comp would’ve managed to do so back in Vanilla.

I’m all for avoiding unintentional nerfs to bosses that actually weren’t in Vanilla (not referring to progressive patching, here), and I’d be open to undoing some of the nerfs (especially for TBC, considering how big they were there compared to Vanilla), but arbitrarily buffing up encounters just because there’re some hardcore raiders out there going out of their way to minmax is a big no for me.

Most raids would be cleared on day 1 by the top guilds, but not Tomb of Sargeras.

The first 7 bosses would fall super quickly, but Avatar would be insanely slow.

During progress, the top guilds were minmaxed to the last item. They had multiple characters with all the good legenderies, bis Nighthold loot, big titanforged mythic + stuff, high levels on their artifact weapons, they bought off a lot of boe ToS items from the black market ah or from the normal ah, and they had access to normal/heroic/and the previous mythic bosses with precise loot distribution. They knew how the fight worked and had amazing compositions.

They were as prepared as you can be before a release. Yet, it took them hundreds of wipes on avatar alone. 佶天鸿 had 700 or something wipes, and the closest pull was not even close to a kill. Method did kill it at the end of on week 1. The progress would be faster this time because people have a lot of experience, but only a few guilds will have the potential to clear in during week 1.

And then there is KJ Mythic. If it’s in its original state, it would take weeks of gear farming to beat it. It will probably be in the nerfed state, but would still take some time to kill. Maybe one day for the best guilds which have the knowledge and progress.

And, there is one fight from MoP, which feels forgotten. Imperial Vizier Zor’lok. It was an amazing fight! As the first fight of the raid, it sure was insanely hard. Not only a dps check, but people had to dodge stuff like crazy. It did receive a giant nerf after a few days sadly. If that fight ever returns in its full glory, it would be a troll fest.

The thing is, they prolly didn’t have the experience they gained through those first 700 wipes or so. I doubt it took them another 700 wipes to get a 2nd kill back then, for example.

Most of the legacy expansions (especially Vanilla, TBC, WotLK) have been played for years by some guilds.


Think i’m going to defend Blizzard, i’m feeling dirty just thinking about it.

Classic was not advertised on being content with increased difficulty to give players a challenge in 2020. My guild was one of those that abused the ECTOPLASMIC DISTILLER while it was in the game on the advice of an ex-private server player. Trust me, this made encounters absolutely trivial, it completely removed the threat mechanic. This being present in at least private servers demonstrates bad game or at least failure to correct it and that there were corrected mechanisms in classic.

To reiterate classic was not re-designed to be “challenging” it was designed to be a re-enactment of vanilla as the developers intended at the time. - Have the succeed in every measure of this, if you said no I’d be forced to agree with you.

Now I’m going to have a shower as I feel dirty.

Ofc it matters. Most players didnt have aq on farm status when they entered naxx, if you get a raid on farm status in 2-3 weeks, its gonna affect future content.

Oh, but they did have quite a lot of experience. They were testing on the ptr when the fight was available there. They also have the experience from heroic, and knew the mythic mechanics as well. And, most importantly, the first 2/3rd of the wipes gave them most of the experience they’ll ever need. The KJ fight was different because nobody knew the mythic abilities. But that’s not the case with Avatar.

On their second kill, they had more experience + a lot of extra mythic items from the second raid id. Along with higher artifact power. The combination of those power boosts made future kills much faster.

If the raid gets released again, it will no doubt be cleared faster, but all the experience of years of playing will not be enough to help a guild which lacks preparations. And even with experience + pre-raid preparations, it would still be tough meeting some of the dps checks.

You see, If I revisit that raid again and have all my bis mythic items and high weapon ap, nothing will feel too hard. Once the raid reaches a high enough ilvl, we can BL and skip entire mechanics.

But, if I revisit the raid with only the best items of the previous tiers+some new mythic stuff, that won’t be enough and my experience will not be able to carry me. Exceptional players from Method or Exorsus will do much much better, but even they will be delayed because you can only collect that many items in 1 week of mythic. That raid was tough because of hard mechanics and item level checks. Experience along won’t make up the lack of big mythic items.

While this is true it’s really only the cherry on the cake.

Oh look, yet another retail idiot trying to convince us we’re having fun wrong.
Listen mate, Classic is now past one year of existence and still filled with people. Try to reconcile this with “people don’t want to play Classic”. Herp derp.

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So what you basically say is: If some people go in with all of the world buffs, tribute buffs, most optimal raid setups, optimal gear sets for each boss encounter, plenty of consumables (flasks, potions, elixires, juju’s and what not), weeks of practice in the PTR before the patch is launched, with all of the knowledge accumulated throughout 16 years, and then clear the AQ40 raid very quickly, then that means the raid is undertuned?

Asking to retune the raids for them to be challenging for those people is a bit too much IMHO. If you want them to be a bit more challenging stop collecting world buffs, tribute buffs, consumables etc, admit some retry pallies, oomkins, shadow priests and such in your raid team, don’t spend weeks practicing in the PTR before the patch is launched, stop min/maxing every single detail of the game to the very limit and maybe you will find out that there is no need for such retuning.

The extreme min/maxing mentality that dominates the current MMO genre today was not so widespread back then when the game was first launched. It is an old school MMO. Everyone is entitled to play it the way they like, of course, and I have nothing against that, but if you apply the current mentality to this game, say like you would play BFA to raid in mythic difficulty, then you will inevitably roflstomp all of the content with ease.

If you want it to be more challenging you have many ways to make it so without any retuning required. Asking Blizzard to change the game to make it fit your personal preferences seems a bit too selfish, in some sense it is like asking to make classic more like BFA but with mythic mode only for raids, no offense intended. The game is very much like it was back then, very fun but very easy if you look at it through the current standards. But we did not ask for a version adapted to the current standards, we have BFA for that. We asked for the closest possible version to what vanilla was, and that is what we got.


Amen to that. For years people asked for classic. Ever since they Made the annoucement the #nochanges army came in and Made it perfectly clear we didnt want anything other then the true experience. And now A 16 year old game is deemed to easy, and they all go bananas.

Tbh: they did f some things up. Its completly idiotic they didnt start at the beginning with the patches, layers are ofcourse a thing, but making raids harder then they were is clearly not vanilla.

Just accept the fact that its a 16 year old game. It had its pro’s and it had its cons. The fact everyone and their sister van just Google rotation/specs/bis gear/ macro’s and tactics means we were all pretty much prepared to the bones for what was comming.
So please stop whining.

In patch 1.1, APES would still clear MC day 3.

But your average semi-casual or semi-hardcore guild would struggle massively with the 1.1 numbers. Spellpower wasn’t a thing. Furywarriors weren’t a thing. That alone would make fights so much longer, even with all the knowledge (of 1.12) we have.

That’s just not true. You could still achieve over 200 spellpower, even in 1.1. While slightly nerfed, stuff like Robe of the Archmage still existed. Rogues were also about as good back then as in 1.12, so most guilds would’ve just replaced their fury warrior slots with more rogues.

welcome to the culture sit and watch, these people hoped for week long streams of top guilds trying to down the AQ

why would we owe him an apology? Ultimately, he was wrong, and he admitted it. Just because the content is easier than on private servers does not mean we do not want it, or it isn’t what we wanted.
If you had expectations that turned out wrong you did not do your research and yes, you can apologize to J. if you want. Don’t drag the rest of us down with you because you are disappointed. I am enjoying classic for what it is. If I wanted difficult and engaging raids I would play another MMO entirely (certainly not retail for multiple reasons).


Ofcourse. But it seems a bit off scall when alot of vanilla servers seem to get it right and blizzard comes with: oh we only have data of newer patches.

Alot of people, and i mean alot, warned that classic wasnt as hard as people remembered it. Or at least it isnt with all the new media we have. Every casual can just Google or youtube everything there is. You get stuck on a Boss? Just Google.

I mean people should take classic for what it is: a great 16 year old game most of us had fun to play the first time around. Not the next hard mmo.

Classic’s raiding difficulty is just fine. Could’ve been slightly better with pserver tuning imo, but it doesn’t matter.

This moaning about how only x percent of guilds should be able to clear this and that is just beating a dead horse. There are mythic raids on retail, there’s FPL on faceit for CSGO, go git gud and get that challenge you beat off to every night.

For those of us who aren’t totally obsessed with raids, we don’t really care.

We enjoy WoW for WoW. We’re not gunna stop playing just because raids get cleared easier than in Vanilla.

Let me State that in A other way: those who actually played the original wow back then dont care. Most of the people whining about difficultu are the ones that never got to play it back then and are used to retail.

Or that is wat i want to believe: it seems really foolish someone who went trough all the content when it was relevant, doesnt recall how it was. I mean, i played since 04. Oké, classic has some sheit that really wasnt there back in the days and they reall Ffed up on the AQ phasing out thing. But other them that, we knew exactly was was about to hit us.