That’s just an assumption with 0 proof. Actually I think I and others already pointed out in many ways, that the things you expect from cross-realm dungeons are already in the game without cross-realm. So adding cross-realm can’t have those negative effects you fear. But it will have positive effects.
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I have not say the rush mentality didn’t exist before Mythic+. I said that toxicity he received in that dungeon was caused by Mythic+ due to people doing it at a max level for 2 years. They have learned to rush and skip that dungeon during BFA Mythic+.
All of this is irrelevant to the topic. The topic is about RDF is bad because he has received toxicity in a BFA dungeon for being in RDF. That premise is false. Someone who makes his arguments based on a false premise should be ignored, it is a fruit of the poison tree. If he want to argue against RDF he should do it without falsehoods. The good or bad of RDF is irrelevant for this topic because the topic is based on falsehoods, so there is no point on discuss about it here.
That could be one component that cause the toxicity but is not the only one. And that is why this topic is wrong. Because he is attacking RDF using precisely one of the toxic aspects of retail that is not caused by RDF. You are aware that RDF existed before people learn extremely optimized Mythic+ skips, right? People didn’t run dungeons with that level of optimization before Mythic+. That the skip toxicity of this topic is precisely only present on BFA dungeons, just the last ones retail players have learned to skip on Mythic+? People don’t play right now in Retail Pre-Mythic+ dungeons with that level of optimization.
Or your morale is so low that in your post of attacking RDF you are ok with deception, falsehood, and transgressing the truth to enforce your point of view. Call me naive, but I think that the end does not justify the means. If someone defends what I think is right but wrong arguments I will attack him.
Don’t you dare to impose your black and white point of view over me. You are I are not discussing if RDF is wrong or right. We are discussing if the OP is right about the toxicity he received on retail. The best you can do is to not assume I have any point of view about RDF because I do not need to have a point of view about a topic to argue that having arguments based on falsehood is wrong. I do not care if WOTLK will have RDF or not, but I don’t like people using false arguments that could impact the development of Classic WOTLK.
I mostly play WOW alone to see the story, both in Classic and Retail, and I almost no play group content, random or not. I could play all the game story alone combined between Retail and Classic, what I can’t play solo on Classic WOTLK I can do it in Retail, what was removed in Retail I can play in Classic WOTLK.
So, I literally don’t care about RDF.
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Berny will ensure the slow pace by ganking people.
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How do you want me to provide you with proof? You want me to find scientific articles about it? … Oh what the hell, just for you!
Eklund, L & Johansson, M. (2010). Social Play. Stockholm University.
http://www.digra.org/wp-content/uploads/digital-library/10343.55072.pdf
This was written some time after the introduction of the Dungeon Finder. Here’s something I found to be interesting:
Reputation and trust have been shown to be important in MMOGs [14]. Reputation, however, has only a local effect on the particular server where a player’s characters reside, since those characters are only visible to players on that particular server. The effect of ostracizing someone and reporting that character to a “ban-list” or using other means of sanctioning such as blocking that character from future cooperation has limited or no effect across servers.
Which is exactly what I was trying to tell Jazem; putting someone on ignore does not really make any difference whatsoever.
Crenshaw, N. & Nardi, B. (2016) “It Was More Than Just the Game, It Was the Community”: Social Affordances in Online Games. In Hawaii International Conference on System Sciences. https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7427655 (behind a paywall, sadly).
Okay so this one is perhaps more relevant when it comes to the consequences cross-servers has on the social aspect. Here’s a rather long but relevant quote:
2.1.1. Group Finder. A key change that affected social experience came with the Group Finder interface, starting in late 2006. Group Finder automates the process of finding others for the collaborative activities of “dungeons” (small group activities) and “raids” (large group activities). In December 2006, Blizzard introduced “Looking For Group,” the first version of Group Finder, named after a phrase players used when forming groups in chat channels. The interface allowed players to hasten the process of creating and organizing groups within a realm by advertising that they were looking for group members, or searching through a list of partially-formed groups. Even with Looking for Group, however, there were often still long wait times. In a patch released in December 2009, Blizzard attempted to remedy this problem by providing a larger pool of potential group members that drew players from multiple realms. While more players decreased wait times, the new system changed how players interacted within a group. For example, players were not concerned about maintaining reputations and relationships with people from different realms because they were strangers whom the player was unlikely to see again [7].
But when it comes to these articles the main thing anyone cares about is the results. This is what they have to say:
- Results
While social experience in WoW is central, it is also fragile and vulnerable to changes in the system. Players reported that changes have affected the social experience of the game, and contributed to a decline in sociality. Some did not mind this decline, as the game was easier and more efficient to play, while others were disappointed and felt that something important had been lost.
Now, I did not wholly read these. I skimmed through them. Perhaps if you look through them carefully you may find something that I missed that completely changes everything and puts you in the right!
Your argument is essentially that “Classic is already dead” because “no one is social in Classic”. And I tell you that that is not the case based on my experiences, and were they to re-implement the dungeon finder nothing would change for you but everything would change for me.
So if you want that garbage then go and play retail.
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Cool find, I will take a look.
Sadly I dont think even research will get people to listen
It is all about the feels.
I kinda do agree here, on a mega server like Firemaw or Gehennas, I guess you dont ‘know’ people outside of yoru guild anyway, apart for some LFG clowns perhaps.
Though, in the original iteration of the game, this cross-server was the main problem. Because having interaction with people you may meet again is meaningful. So that was bad in the old game. But in the new game, servers like firemaw and gehennas have already made irrepairable dmg to this concept as well.
Thanks, read the article entire, interesting.
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Some profesors buy their titles in cheetos. So “research” is not the final argument imo.
This most significant part about my critiques of RDF. It needs manual mode when you can choose whenever you want to take part in auto group assembly or not.
I had situation on my 2 t4 pcs feral druid tank alt in shattered halls heroic, when guildies ret lost their tank after first boss and asked for help. There were 2 absolute AoE beasts: a seed planter maniac warlock and short-circuited elemental shaman who may had not even noticed that they got more buttons that SoC and CL. Only untill after 2 wipes I managed to reason them to calm down their AoE madness and solo target 5 seconds for me to get aggro. Had this reasoning worked in random crossrealm group? Most certainly not, they would rather kick me and waited for geared paladin.
Why not let AoE mad lads look for their setups, while I search for thouse suiting me?
People spoke about this in another thread. The problem with harder heroics was that your RDF assembled group setup may had not had enough CC classes/specs. However your take about rush mentality is also valid. Wrath babies thought that from 3.3.0. every heroic dungeon would be an AoE fest so they rebelled when difficulty rose as their gear became obsolete at the start of expansion. There were also healer mana regen changes so mass chain pulling made healer dry very fast. But after an outrage Cata heroics were nerfed.
The only time you could sence the story behind a dungeon lore and a hint of difficulty has always been first two months of the addon, when people gathered pre raid gear. From there on you got carried either by unbreakable tank (like mine prot pandaren warrior :3) heavy artillery dps or “not on my watch!” overgeared healer pulling people from brink of Shadowlands. Your personal impact in such groups mattered nothing.
I really liked MoP challenge mode though. Made dungeon content great again. Downscaling your gear to heroic dungeon blues ilvl, while giving mobs 400% damage and 200% hp. I completed it on prot warrior, BDK, rogue, elemental shaman, Surv hunter and had all instances exept Mogu’Shan Palace gold on my prot paladin.
Maybe Blizzard will make 5 ppl scalable in Wrath to keep 5ppl interesting, so we couldn’t just crush it with gearscore?
Can’t say M+ is a bad thing, however it is heavily abused by Blizzard and seeing the same loot with slight ilvl increase 3rd time+ is depressing. At least they could add some rogue-like elements to instance design or change the loot to include unique items here and there.
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Like this?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7aBmz95kkzkIts a way better argument than any I have seen from the pro side in any way shape or form
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For sure, it seems these gargantuan servers do have the issue of being “too large”, and as for why that is a problem can be tricky to understand. It is very easy to see the benefits of a gigantic player pool, but the downsides are easy to miss. The YouTuber Neverknowsbest covered this in his very long essay on “How to save the MMO genre once and for all”. The chapter of the social problem is particularly interesting as he’s talking about the many downsides of servers, but also how servers created the social experience that many of us who play Classic cherish. He describes it as a paradox and says: “servers were one of the worst aspects of the genre, yet they were also needed to create the social experience people loved”. Quote:
… servers created the communities MMOs thrived upon. They gave people a sense of value and they facilitated the social design of the genre. But the strictly contained servers of old don’t work anymore, and without them people are left existing in a world of phantoms surrounded by meaningless projections you see but never interact with, full of names you never remember where people only derive value in others through item levels or gear score, and where when people do play with each other they are increasingly anti-social and toxic because there’s no longer any consequences to good or bad behaviour. And so without servers, the benefits of social game design are small, meaning no one will view them as worth the inconvenience they bring.
And I do not disbelieve that this is the case on a server like Firemaw. However I did not play on Firemaw, and I did experience the social benefits of a smaller, more close-knit server. I also experienced the downsides of it as people were quick to cry that my server was dead, even as Ironforge logged activity in the number of thousands. It wasn’t that the complaints that people had weren’t legitimate, they were simply overexaggerated.
You could liken it to real life city populations. A city might have a million people living in it and yet people can still feel overwhelmingly lonely, and a small village may only have a couple of hundred people living in it and in such a place it may be difficult to get away from people as people are more likely to know one another. It is more likely that people will be social to people they see on the streets in a smaller town than in a larger city. There’s also a greater need for cooperation between people in a smaller town seeing as not everything will be as readily available.
I don’t know whether anyone has done any research on this yet or not, but I believe that there is a “goldilocks”-zone for server populations where you can still find people for various content (even if queue times may be longer) but where there aren’t so many people that social bonds aren’t formed. But this won’t happen if they open the floodgate to cross-server services, and why some of us despise the Dungeon Finder even with all its apparent benefits.
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During Vanilla Classic and TBCC , Blizzard and many players completely ignored and ridiculed RP and social interaction factor, now in Wotlk where RP is least wanted ,they suddenly realised it is the best time to implement such a changes…give me a brake.
/me gives you a brake
We seem to be talking completely past each other. All the research you cite talks about what happened in original Wrath. And it is correct in the fact that cross-realm had and effect on accountability and thus player behaviour THEN.
What most of the pro-RFD players are saying is that there is virtually no community behaviour enforceme right now. Not in megaservers and not even on smaller ones. As was pointed out in this very thread, if you come into the group accusing another member of misbehaviour, you are likely to be completely disbelieved, and if you then leave yourself, you will end up on 4 black lists. If you accuse someone of ninja looting in public channels or realm discord, you will be only met with derision and swearing.
We already have all the negatives that are supposed to arrive with RDF. All those things that your research papers say have happened in retail when it was introduced already happened in classic. Except we also have channel spam and gatekeeping. RDF can only bring positives, and a lot of them.
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Well I dont know how its dealt with on other servers, but both on Stonespine (RIP) and on Mirage we have servers set up where actual officers from guilds have quick and easy access to each other so things like ninja looting is dealt with by speaking to one of the officers in your guild who take it up with someone from the guild the person in question is in (if they are not in one the officer will warn all the other guilds of the person instead) so there is no need of putting your self out there where people might abuse you.
But that ofc means that you have to be in a guild so you can get the added help from people who dedicate way to much of their free time with this game.
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