Genuine question(s) for non-addon users

[Yntara-argent-dawn]

So we all know this topic has a lot of heated debate around it, and I’ve seen a lot of different sides give their take on it. But a few things have left me kind of puzzled mainly on the side of people who will be glad addons are gone in Midnight, so here goes:

From what I’ve seen, a lot of people who are happy that they will be gone say that they don’t use any addons themselves, for varying reasons, and that’s fine, but I don’t understand how people can simultaneously say that “the game is designed and balanced around addons which is bad” but also say they play the game just fine without addons? And if someone can play just fine without addons, then wouldn’t that mean the existence of addons does not affect them?

Another point I see brought up a lot is that the content is being made easier so that addons wouldn’t be needed, and that’s definitely reflected in class changes but will that be the case for the actual content itself? Because Blizzard is still essentially trying to replace a lot of addon functionality by making it baseline. And what about M+ keys being infinitely scalable? Maybe we’ll see more people doing higher keys than before but there will still be a point where the content ramps up in difficulty again, won’t we just be back at the same point?

The biggest question mark for me though is still the sentiment that addons being gone is a good thing, coming from people who never used them to begin with, despite the fact that Blizzard is trying to add their own into the game effectively removing the choice of having them, and while I’ve seen people say they won’t be using the CD manager or built in DPS meter and such anyways, again, doesn’t that mean that ALL of this stuff doesn’t affect them to begin with?

[Nannexx-argent-dawn]

Clarification:

Content is not being made easier. Content is being created with severly less effect and ability clutter.

Effect and ability clutter does not increase actual encounter difficulty, effect and ability clutter only makes it needlessly complicated to concentrate on the encounter, but effect and ability clutter was required to combat those addons functionalities.

Encounters for mid-high players will feel more difficult as of Midnight, due to those addons not “playing the encounter for them” anymore.

Of course every encounter was playable without addons, otherwise high end guilds with World First kills wouldn’t be able to achieve those, as addons needed to be adjusted/expanded by learning the encounter.

It will work out and encounters will not be “dumbed down”.

[Irisi-silvermoon]

Mate, if You genuinely don’t understand this, and want answers then just watch some interviews with Ion or Paul Kubit where they speak about their add-on philosophy. They really explain this things very clearly.

@Yntara-argent-dawn

And if someone can play just fine without addons, then wouldn’t that mean the existence of addons does not affect them?

Seriously, watch some of these interviews. They explain very clearly how the existence of addons affects encounter design, and what advantages does it give to addon users over non-addon users.

@Yntara-argent-dawn

I don’t understand how people can simultaneously say that “the game is designed and balanced around addons which is bad” but also say they play the game just fine without addons?

But do they? I mostly (only?) see people saying addons are not mandatory - not that the game can be played equally with or without them. Its quite obvious that addons do give people an advantage.

@Yntara-argent-dawn

will that be the case for the actual content itself?

Again, watch the interviews. Yes, lack of addons will be heavily reflected in encounter design.

@Yntara-argent-dawn

The biggest question mark for me though is still the sentiment that addons being gone is a good thing, coming from people who never used them to begin with, despite the fact that Blizzard is trying to add their own into the game

There’s no mystery here. I don’t use addons, so I’m at a disadvantage. Blizz will change my spec and encounter design not to require addons - that’s the biggest benefit. Blizzard’s native “replacements" for addons are also different from addons in two big ways: art style fits the game, so it doesn’t break immersion. It doesn’t require third party programs, so there’s no need to download, set up, update etc. Basically, less maintenance. But again, biggest benefit lies in the game design not taking addons into account.

[Messenjaah-xavius]

“addons play the game for you“ is the mantra repeated by casual players who do not engage with any type of end game content.
The only place where addons are really required is high end mythic raiding and very high key pushing. That’s it.

You can clear heroic raid and your weekly 10’s easily without any addons.

For most people addons simply provide ACCESABILITY, huge quality of life and customizability.

I simply cannot play the game without addons like weakauras. Due to issues with eyesight I need to make certain things big enough, I need to be able to place them in certain spots on the screen etc.

Because blizzard is upset that some of the Race To World First players use complicated macros or addons/weakauras to make content easier, we all suffer.

It’s beyond stupid. We all pay the price of war between devs and few high end players.
Due to that millions of people are going to suffer. Is it worth it? OBVIOUSLY NO.
All because some high position devs are salty, that ppl found a way to simplify fight they designed.

Something like this happened in the past.
Back in the day (was it MoP? I don’t remember) there was a fight, that required cooperation between players, as they got a debuff and they needed to touch. People solved it by displaying information on friendly player’s nameplates, which trivialized the fight.
Blizzard devs become so salty, that they REMOVED ability to customize friendly nameplates.

And now they are going with nuclear option to take down all addons that use combat data.
How did it work last time? Players found a way around it.
I am sure that players will still find ways to simplify fights anyways, even without addons. Perhaps via use of complex macros or overlays.

Classes are not simplified to match new design of raids and dungeons.
They are simplified because default UI is simply inadequate to display needed information.
And looking at progress they are making on alpha it’s very dire.
We will not even get fraction of the accessibility and customizability we had before.

This is the biggest shakeup in the history of the game.
They decided to alienate millions of players.

This simply forces me to stop playing the game. I have no choice. Even after pruning there are some specs I really wanted to play, but I won’t be able to…

[Messenjaah-xavius]

@Irisi-silvermoon

Mate, if You genuinely don’t understand this, and want answers then just watch some interviews with Ion or Paul Kubit where they speak about their add-on philosophy. They really explain this things very clearly.

Those interviews are useless. They are very vague and they constantly just repeat that they don’t want addons to be able to do ‘complex calculations‘.

Besides, you cannot simply listen to the devs and just take their word for it.
You have to take a look at what they are doing, not what they are saying. They constantly lie.
Like they repeated many times, that they are not going with ‘rip off the band-aid approach‘, but rather that the change is going to be gradual. It was a lie, they are going with nuclear option.

You are one of the people I am calling out, you are not doing m+ keys, you are not raiding. Which is fine, but why are you happy when other people suffer?

Do you really feel better when people like me are not being able to display Maelstrom Weapon Stacks as a colored bar or number?

[Irisi-silvermoon]

@Messenjaah-xavius

Like they repeated many times, that they are not going with ‘rip off the band-aid approach‘, but rather that the change is going to be gradual. It was a lie, they are going with nuclear option.

They said they don’t want to remove addons before providing their own tools to replace the core functionalities they want players to have access to themselves. And that’s exactly what’s happening. The fact that players didn’t expect it to happen so soon doesn’t mean they lied.

@Messenjaah-xavius

why are you happy when other people suffer?

Do you really feel better when people like me are not being able to display Maelstrom Weapon Stacks as a colored bar or number?

I don’t think nor care about You at all.

[Warlóór-steamwheedle-cartel]

@Messenjaah-xavius

Something like this happened in the past.
Back in the day (was it MoP? I don’t remember) there was a fight, that required cooperation between players, as they got a debuff and they needed to touch. People solved it by displaying information on friendly player’s nameplates, which trivialized the fight

Archimonde maybe? There was something kn that fight that basically required addons

[Beerwolf-sunstrider (Beerwolf)]

The most important addon, hands down, is BadBoy.

[Tah-earthen-ring]

@Yntara-argent-dawn

And if someone can play just fine without addons, then wouldn’t that mean the existence of addons does not affect them?

‘being able to do it’ and ‘enjoying it’ are two very different things.
I might be able to do that boss encounter with the fancy mechanics without addons guiding me through it; but it certainly isn’t fun.

I’d like encounters to be fun again. I don’t like gimmicky mini-game-esque mechanics and I hope we’ll see less of them in a future without addons.

[Messenjaah-xavius]

@Irisi-silvermoon

I don’t think nor care about You at all.

Are you sure you don’t?
Then why do you care what type of addons can I use?

[Bazoomie-silvermoon]

@Warlóór-steamwheedle-cartel

Archimonde maybe? There was something kn that fight that basically required addons

I need gtfo to tell me when I am standing in fire .that is the only addon I need

[Irisi-silvermoon]

@Messenjaah-xavius

why do you care what type of addons can I use?

Where did You get that ridiculous idea? Curb Your ego mate, the world doesn’t revolve around You

[Bazoomie-silvermoon]

@Tah-earthen-ring

being able to do it’ and ‘enjoying it’ are two very different things.
I might be able to do that boss encounter with the fancy mechanics without addons guiding me through it; but it certainly isn’t fun.

I’d like encounters to be fun again. I don’t like gimmicky mini-game-esque mechanics and I hope we’ll see less of them in a future without addons.

You will be perfect fit for our casual guild

[Inean-antonidas]

@Yntara-argent-dawn

but also say they play the game just fine without addons?

I can play it just fine, but I know I’m willingly choosing a handycap while doing so, because addons can make the game a lot easier.

@Yntara-argent-dawn

And if someone can play just fine without addons, then wouldn’t that mean the existence of addons does not affect them?

Yes it does, because blizz also knows ppl are using addons - and are making the game more complicated because of it… which manly affects those playing without addons.

@Yntara-argent-dawn

Because Blizzard is still essentially trying to replace a lot of addon functionality by making it baseline.

And that will be fair. Because now, if I can’t handle a mechanic, because the actual base UI doesn’t allow to deal with it, we have a basis to complain about it and the devs need to change it, while now, ppl and the devs just say themselves: “Oh, go download that and that addon, and you can do it”.

@Yntara-argent-dawn

the sentiment that addons being gone is a good thing, coming from people who never used them to begin with

Oh, I use some - and I don’t like it. It’s annoying having to update them with every patch, some not being ready the day I have time to do it… or simply having to deal with various addons made by various ppl, all having a different interface and menue and no official manual about how to set them up correctly. With all getting the same in-game addons, getting the help and information required will become a lot easier… and I no longer need to manage those external addons myself.

[Jdouci-azjolnerub]

@Yntara-argent-dawn

I don’t understand how people can simultaneously say that “the game is designed and balanced around addons which is bad” but also say they play the game just fine without addons?

This opinion seems to stem out of, what I would call, envy held by people who don’t really understand how addons work. With the exception of some Mythic Raid bosses, addons don’t solve any mechanics for you, all they can do is provide better clarity of information.

There are people who also seem to think that “Removing addons = Not having to customize your UI” which also isn’t true. Since Blizzard is providing replacements for addons, it means that instead of “wasting” time in Addon menus, you will “waste” time in Blizzard’s menus. And people who will do this will perform better than people who won’t, once again.

I’m not concerned about the reduction of difficulty tho. Maybe Mythic Raid bosses will be noticebly easier but M+ is an infinitely scalable system where you can always crank the difficulty up.

[Bazoomie-silvermoon]

@Inean-antonidas

Oh, I use some - and I don’t like it. It’s annoying having to update them with every patch, some not being ready the day I have time to do it… or simply having to deal with various addons made by various ppl, all having a different interface and menue and no official manual about how to set them up correctly. With all getting the same in-game addons, getting the help and information required will become a lot easier… and I no longer need to manage those external addons myself.

yep and curseforge aka overwolf has been a bad one . constantly trying to entice you with premium sub to get rid of ads .

[Devinia-bronze-dragonflight]

Just wish it had a visual element, as I rarely play with sound on

[Exiasee-eonar (Exiasee)]

@Yntara-argent-dawn

that “the game is designed and balanced around addons which is bad” but also say they play the game just fine without addons?

When we say the game is balanced around addons, we mean the hardest content. The rest of the content is still 100% completable without addons, even if they provide a measurable benefit.

Most of us who play the game without addons are limiting ourselves to content that simply does not necessitate them. There are of course people who do beyond-cutting-edge content without addons, and they have immense skill.

@Messenjaah-xavius

why are you happy when other people suffer?

Do you really feel better when people like me are not being able to display Maelstrom Weapon Stacks as a colored bar or number?

No sensible person feels better about others suffering in a videogame. But your request should be for the base game to inherently support the accessibility features you need, not to maintain unofficial 3rd-party tools that open multiple cans of worms not related to your situation.

@Bazoomie-silvermoon

I need gtfo to tell me when I am standing in fire .that is the only addon I need

The base game already does that, like 20% of your outer screen gets an effect based on what you stand (fire, ice, void etc.)

[Semu-ravencrest]

I’m really curious to see how this plays out.

I fully agree with Blizzards philosophy here, but a lot will depend on the execution.

Combat add-ons trivialized far too much in the game. Hitting the big red reset button here and having a baseline of information that Blizzard controls should (in theory) give Blizzard much better control of combat encounters.

I don’t think simplification = easy. I’ll use Dark Souls series as an example, IMO they perfectly emphasis boss fights that are simple to understand, as bosses telegraph their moves which you can learn and anticipate but that doesn’t make them easy.

Same is true of class design. While I love most of the specs today, I don’t like that I need Weakauras to be effective, I don’t like that I need to spend time adjusting them after each major patch. Quite a few of the specs in the game today are near unplayable without aruas. That’s wrong.

[Hinklink-sylvanas (Hinklink)]

@Yntara-argent-dawn

and that’s fine, but I don’t understand how people can simultaneously say that “the game is designed and balanced around addons which is bad” but also say they play the game just fine without addons?

Difference in content and skill. You need SIGNIFICANTLY more skill to play without any addons. Most “good” wow players will struggle hard with heroic raids and m+2 after this. At least with the current Blizz ui that shows, nothing actually. Almost nothing. You need addons to do higher end content → you don’t want addons → you can’t participate or handicap your team

@Yntara-argent-dawn

And if someone can play just fine without addons, then wouldn’t that mean the existence of addons does not affect them?

It does, you see if I wanna raid; I need rc lootcouncil, which is a toxic addon, it gives control to nerds; lets you sit on trail without loot for weeks and then get kicked. Loot should be personal and non tradable. So no addons are needed and no drama can occur. This promotes are more positive community, sure the sweats and control lords won’t like it but that is such a tiny group, it’s not important what they want or like.

@Yntara-argent-dawn

Another point I see brought up a lot is that the content is being made easier so that addons wouldn’t be needed, and that’s definitely reflected in class changes but will that be the case for the actual content itself

Yes ion said as much, and it needs to.

@Yntara-argent-dawn

And what about M+ keys being infinitely scalable? Maybe we’ll see more people doing higher keys than before but there will still be a point where the content ramps up in difficulty again, won’t we just be back at the same point?

We’ll see more people doing lower keys as they have to get used to playing wow instead of addons playing the game for them. At least it will be an even battlefield and new players can gid gud instead of configuring weak aura cheats.

@Yntara-argent-dawn

The biggest question mark for me though is still the sentiment that addons being gone is a good thing, coming from people who never used them to begin with, despite the fact that Blizzard is trying to add their own into the game effectively removing the choice of having them

I have tried them and yes it is a good thing. Because they are ALL poorly made / coded. Give a TON of errors but most importantly destroy game performance. ElvUI for instance drops your 150fps to sub 50fps during combat as a healer lol. Default blizzard ui to maybe 120. It is so poorly made and always ugly as well.

You also don’t know whats going on when you watch a youtube video or stream cause everyone has their own idea of what good is, and mostly good means more buttons and more fluff on screen that has no business being there. VERY unappealing for new players.

Last its needed for console. PCgaming is a dying market, every year less and less day 1 AAA games are purchased and less and less new cpu / gpu hardware shipped. Mac is growing but tiny, so console it is.